Discuss the trade with Phils fans

[SnB]

I'd like to thank all you guys for posting over at philliesphans.  It's great to hear what intelligent fans of other teams think about trades.  No trolls at all, my compliments to the quality of your posters.

 

I think the folks who call it a portential win-win where nether GM gave up anything he couldn't replace are right on the mark.

 

It will be very interesting for us to see if Rowand gets flipped for quality starting pitching, which we could use, or if Michaels or Victorino hits the road. Many of us would be happy rotating five outfielders (Abreu, Burrell, Rowand, Victorino, Michaels) if one of them could help take RH first-base ABs.

 

Thanks again, and keep stopping by!

i now have a new favorite NL team.

The cardinals dropped the ball for me last year (long story, involved world series tickets).

 

[RME JICO]

I'd like to thank all you guys for posting over at philliesphans.  It's great to hear what intelligent fans of other teams think about trades.  No trolls at all, my compliments to the quality of your posters.

 

I think the folks who call it a portential win-win where nether GM gave up anything he couldn't replace are right on the mark.

 

It will be very interesting for us to see if Rowand gets flipped for quality starting pitching, which we could use, or if Michaels or Victorino hits the road. Many of us would be happy rotating five outfielders (Abreu, Burrell, Rowand, Victorino, Michaels) if one of them could help take RH first-base ABs.

 

Thanks again, and keep stopping by!

The same goes to you and the other Philly Faithful that have posted here. It is nice to get the insights from another perspective, and you all have surely provided that.

 

I agree that this was a great move for both teams. Each team had areas were they had replaceable players with depth and youth. I too am wondering if the Phils will flip Rowand or move Michaels. This trade is only the beginning of an exciting off season for both teams.

[Guest JimH]

I'd like to thank all you guys for posting over at philliesphans.  It's great to hear what intelligent fans of other teams think about trades.  No trolls at all, my compliments to the quality of your posters.

 

I think the folks who call it a portential win-win where nether GM gave up anything he couldn't replace are right on the mark.

 

It will be very interesting for us to see if Rowand gets flipped for quality starting pitching, which we could use, or if Michaels or Victorino hits the road. Many of us would be happy rotating five outfielders (Abreu, Burrell, Rowand, Victorino, Michaels) if one of them could help take RH first-base ABs.

 

Thanks again, and keep stopping by!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Chuck, I have great respect for your city and the passion Philadelphia fans have for their sports teams ... we have the same passion here in Chicago. For me though, when I think of Philadelphia, before I think of sports it's Pat's, Geno's, and Jim's King of Steaks for me.

 

On the trade, you guys got a very solid CF, a great clubhouse presence, and a guy who works his ass off to improve his game in Aaron Rowand. He is solid, a gamer, and I hope the Philly fans cut him some slack.

 

I agree with Jason on the two prospects, personally I think Haigwood is the guy to watch. The White Sox added him to the 40 man and he's coming fast. I feel he'll be able to contribute to the Phillies starting in 2007, he knows how to pitch.

 

Wishing you and your city the best of luck in the 2006 NL East race. Have a Yuengling for me!

[Rowand44]

Hopefully we'll all get to see Aaron on the southside of Chicago in October next year.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Cerb, despite the stats you quote, that is just flat out wrong.  Haigwood made 5 starts at the Hoover Met and six on the road.  He was 4-1 with a 1.13 ERA on the road, definitely indicating his success was not "homemade".  The two starts I saw him make did not give any indication the park was any factor at all.  When you are buckling knees, making guys swing and miss with the bat flying, and getting weak swings, the park factor is nil.

 

I noted last year that I felt Brandon McCarthy was helped by the Met, giving up lots of deep fly balls that died at the Met warning track, but that was not the case with Haigwood.

 

I stand by what I said and I think it's a trend that you'll see as time goes on. The Sox could have easily given up Liotta or Tracey but they didn't for whatever reason, either the Phils didn't want them or the Sox kept them. Those two, with the addition of Broadway, kill worms in front of home plate. Both Gonzalez and Haigwood have a very bad G/F ratio, something that wouldn't work in Charlotte, Chicago or Philadelphia.

 

While people can drool over Haig's stats in AA, and come on they're amazing, you still have to look at his stats at Winston-Salem which weren't that eye popping. I just don't think Haigwood is a front of the rotation staters like everyone predicts, but I've always said Haig knows how to pitch and could be a pretty damn good anchor at the back of a rotation. And for a 40-50 HR guy, you give up a guy like Haigwood.

[GoodAsGould]

Im kind of happy we gave up pitching prospects over hitting ones. Our pitching should be tied up for a long time hopefully in Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, and B-Mac but we definitely arent 2 strong with hitting.

 

 

Its kind of sad knowing Frank is all but gone now but still I think if healthy right now Thome could give us more and im all for going back to the WS. Now if we resign Konerko im going to be really happy.

 

Gio Gonzalez has the stuff to be a front of the rotation starter just his size is what brings up ???'s.... and as far as that off the field issues...That was mostly because he wanted his brother to catch for him but the coach wouldnt allow it in his Highschool.

[nitetrain8601]

Im kind of happy we gave up pitching prospects over hitting ones.  Our pitching should be tied up for a long time hopefully in Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, and B-Mac but we definitely arent 2 strong with hitting.

Its kind of sad knowing Frank is all but gone now but still I think if healthy right now Thome could give us more and im all for going back to the WS.  Now if we resign Konerko im going to be really happy.

 

Gio Gonzalez has the stuff to be a front of the rotation starter just his size is what brings up ???'s.... and as far as that off the field issues...That was mostly because he wanted his brother to catch for him but the coach wouldnt allow it in his Highschool.

 

Nah, it was his parents who wanted to get his brother more playing time, but the coach wouldn't give it to him so he didn't let Gio play either.

 

I think Gio will end up being a #2 starter for you guys down the road. Not a cheap #2 starter, a dominant one.

[gosox41]

I'd include Garland and Cotts on the list despite the fact that the Sox didn't draft them.  I would not include Foulke.

 

I can asee maybe adding them since they did spend at least a year in the Sox minor league system (though I maintain they did rush Garland up). I don't want to beat up Kenny because, afterall, he did bring a World Series to Chicago. But I will say that it will be a lot easier for any team to win if they can deveop as much good pitching as possible. So far, under the KW regime, it's been just Brandon McCarthy. It's been 5 drafts.

 

I hope the Sox can figure out hte minor league pitching dilemma soon. A team can never have too much pitching.

 

 

Bob

[Chisoxfn]

I can asee maybe adding them since they did spend at least a year in the Sox minor league system (though I maintain they did rush Garland up).  I don't want to beat up Kenny because, afterall, he did bring a World Series to Chicago.  But I will say that it will be a lot easier for any team to win if they can deveop as much good pitching as possible.  So far, under the KW regime, it's been just Brandon McCarthy.  It's been 5 drafts.

 

I  hope the Sox can figure out hte minor league pitching dilemma soon.  A team can never have too much pitching.

Bob

Cotts should most definately count as should Bobby Jenks. We went out and got Jenks and had the guts to move him to the pen. The risk paid off for us.

 

Kenny has done a solid job. He has done a better job dealing guys that haven't panned out (as of yet) for guys that have some value. I'll give him credit, most every minor leaguer that was sent hasn't panned out.

 

The only one I really cringed about giving up (Aside from Reed and that was well worth it) was dealing Josh Rupe in the 1st Everett deal. But Rupe is far from a sure thing. He's a solid starting pitching prospect.

[nitetrain8601]

Cotts should most definately count as should Bobby Jenks.  We went out and got Jenks and had the guts to move him to the pen.  The risk paid off for us. 

 

Kenny has done a solid job.  He has done a better job dealing guys that haven't panned out (as of yet) for guys that have some value.  I'll give him credit, most every minor leaguer that was sent hasn't panned out. 

 

The only one I really cringed about giving up (Aside from Reed and that was well worth it) was dealing Josh Rupe in the 1st Everett deal.  But Rupe is far from a sure thing.  He's a solid starting pitching prospect.

 

I don't know. I guess you can count Cotts, but not Jenks. Every team knew he would be better suited as a bullpen guy, but Anaheim wanted him to start since they already had a great bullpen.

[Rex Hudler]

I stand by what I said and I think it's a trend that you'll see as time goes on. The Sox could have easily given up Liotta or Tracey but they didn't for whatever reason, either the Phils didn't want them or the Sox kept them. Those two, with the addition of Broadway, kill worms in front of home plate. Both Gonzalez and Haigwood have a very bad G/F ratio, something that wouldn't work in Charlotte, Chicago or Philadelphia.

 

While people can drool over Haig's stats in AA, and come on they're amazing, you still have to look at his stats at Winston-Salem which weren't that eye popping. I just don't think Haigwood is a front of the rotation staters like everyone predicts, but I've always said Haig knows how to pitch and could be a pretty damn good anchor at the back of a rotation. And for a 40-50 HR guy, you give up a guy like Haigwood.

 

 

First of all, I never said anything about Haigwood being a front of the rotation starter, so I am not sure where that came from.

 

And second, you said his success in AA was because of the park he pitched in. While your ground ball/fly ball theory may hold true down the road, that statement still isn't true. He pitched just as well on the road in hitters parks and wasn't helped at all by the big ballpark at home, at least in the two games I saw.

 

Statistical progression as guys move up the ladder is not always neat and tidy. Some guys do better at higher levels. Some have a bad year and then rebound at a higher level. Just because he pitched better in AA does not mean the park had anything to do with it.

[Steve9347]

My heart hurts for Rowand, but my head wonders if pitchers would finally find out that the slider down and away really is a weakness.

 

SB

 

hahhaa. im sure you and i noticed it but major league scouts didn't.

 

Rowand has obviously slapped enough low outside sliders the opposite way that pitchers can't get him out everyday.

 

however, crash wasn't good enough that we didn't steamroll in this deal. philly freed up about 5 million (what? haha!) in the deal, but they, being in the NL, had no where left for thome, so we ripped them off. rock and roll.

[ottawa_sox]

Hey Chuck

 

It's always great to have an inciteful view from the other side of the fence. While trying to determine if the Phillies pulled off a good trade, at this stage of the game, you should take heart in Pat Gillick's track record. A winning record record 16 of his last 17 full seasons and 9 post season appearances. He has shown an especially keen eye for young talent. Good luck.