Crede, Garland, Pierzynski

[RockRaines]

 

Yeah right, Boras is gonna give the White Sox a reasonable price.

 

And Garland, who wants to play on the west coast, will take whatever the White Sox offer.

Jim,

 

Adressing his posts are alot like this= :banghead

 

its just not worth the trouble.

[fathom]

Most people get it.  VAFan doesn't.

 

Why don't we try to trade Garland and Crede to the Padres for Brian Giles?

[quickman]

Jim,

 

Adressing his posts are alot like this=    :banghead

 

its just not worth the trouble.

 

 

Rock the crappy part is I think there is something new in a thread, but its the same old story, same b****ing and moaning. The titles change but the subject are the same, stupid stuff.

[RockRaines]

Rock the crappy part is I think there is something new in a thread, but its the same old story, same b****ing and moaning. The titles change but the subject are the same, stupid stuff.

I guess you picked an off time to come back. A little over a year ago we really had some great discussions, it seems to have fallen off lately.

 

Of course that was under my old name....

Edited December 19, 2005 by RockRaines

[Guest JimH]

I guess you picked an off time to come back.  A little over a year ago we really had some great discussions, it seems to have fallen off lately.

 

Of course that was under my old name....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What was your old name, I don't remember. I thought this was your original, you know, like Jim H. and quickman.

[Guest JimH]

Why don't we try to trade Garland and Crede to the Padres for Brian Giles?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

15 yards, piling on.

 

[RockRaines]

What was your old name, I don't remember.  I thought this was your original, you know, like Jim H. and quickman. 

babybearhater, I had some nice blow outs with Querty.

[Guest JimH]

babybearhater, I had some nice blow outs with Querty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah ok, now I remember. Thanks.

[RockRaines]

 

15 yards, piling on.

 

[SSH2005]

Why don't we try to trade Garland and Crede to the Padres for Brian Giles?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[RockRaines]

Yeah ok, now I remember.  Thanks.

I joined sometime in '04

[CWSGuy406]

Crede, a 35 homer hitter?

 

If he got really, really hot and got lucky a bit, I could see him hitting 30. But he's hitting in one of the best hitters parks in all of baseball, and his career season high is only 22.

 

He's also 27 -- already. He should be peaking within the next two years. Personally, I don't see that great of a peak.

[VAfan]

Why don't all you board policemen just address the subject?

 

Pierzynski today said he's spoken with Garland who told him he'd like to be back with the Sox. That's won't get Jon signed, but it refutes the notion that he can't be brought back.

 

Here's the quote:

"Garland is due to make a good raise and good for Gar," Pierzynski said during a conference call.

 

"He deserves it for what he's been through. I saw him last week and he wants to stay.

 

Here's the link.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...tesox-headlines

 

Have any of you personally talked with Jon to find out his opinion?

[VAfan]

Haven't all these issues been discussed till we puke in other threads? It appears people don't read or jsut like to start new threads.

 

Point #1- garland does not want to resign here. He likes california thats where he will go. it really doens't matter what KW wants or if the sox give him 10 million. He will become a free agent.

 

Point #2 - Crede will not sign long term if his agent is boras. May not happen this year but he will be gone unless he changes agents.

 

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

 

My post was started November 24th.

 

AJ said in today's Trib that he's spoken with Garland and Garland told him he would like to come back. Post the link please from someone who has spoken with Garland that he wants to go back to the West Coast.

 

As for Crede, I think the best way to deal with Boras is to lock in his client early before he becomes a star. I think that window for the Sox is this offseason. By the end of next year, after Crede has a much better year in 2006, I would agree with you that he's likely unsignable.

 

Crede has 3+ years of full time service, but I can't tell from some Google searches whether he'd be a free agent in 2008 or not until 2009. Who knows?

[SSH2005]

Sure, Garland could be brought back but I doubt the Sox will give him the money that he wants. And not because they are too cheap but because he would mess with the future payroll plans for our team. I doubt KW could justify spending $50+ million on a pitcher who isn't dominant, doesn't have ace-quality stuff, and who has only had one good season thus far.

[VAfan]

Why don't we try to trade Garland and Crede to the Padres for Brian Giles?

 

I know you guys love to try to ridicule me, but from a baseball perspective only, a straight trade of Garland for Giles would actually be a good deal for the Sox.

 

Giles, in a horrible home park, was the 12th or 13th best offensive player in baseball last year (slightly better than Paul Konerko), and would likely do at least as well with the Cell as his home park (more than making up for any age or league-related decline). Indeed, if he hit as well in the Cell as he hit on the NL road last year, he would be a huge addition to the offense. (Giles created 116 runs; Rowand created 76 runs. That 40-run difference is greater than the 19-run differential between Garland and Vazquez.)

 

The deal is not going to happen, obviously, but it would be a fair trade from a value perspective (leaving aside the fact that Giles was a FA but now probably has veto rights over a trade).

[quickman]

My post was started November 24th. 

 

AJ said in today's Trib that he's spoken with Garland and Garland told him he would like to come back.  Post the link please from someone who has spoken with Garland that he wants to go back to the West Coast. 

 

As for Crede, I think the best way to deal with Boras is to lock in his client early before he becomes a star.  I think that window for the Sox is this offseason.  By the end of next year, after Crede has a much better year in 2006, I would agree with you that he's likely unsignable. 

 

Crede has 3+ years of full time service, but I can't tell from some Google searches whether he'd be a free agent in 2008 or not until 2009.  Who knows?

 

 

Well VA we will see who is right. I have no written proof. I will emphatically state that Garland will sign with a team on the west coast specifically california within two years. (He may not have a choice this year) I guess we will have to wait. I am willing to do so. I am a very patient man. I will also state his time with us is extremely limited despite the fact you like him. I do believe his trade value is more when dealing with a west coast team, because I do believe he has made it known he would rather play on the west coast. If he gets traded to the Dodgers padres or angels, he will sign longer term.I am sure KW doesn't give a s*** if you like him or anyone else. I would suspect they do not want to jump way over garcia or Buerhle's salaries too much or else they get themselves in a 2007 jam. I am certain KW is thinking ahead.

 

Now as far as Crede, he may not be traded THIS YEAR but he will not be in the Sox plans in 2008 because of Boras. So if you have a taker now then trade him. Reason is because you will be in the same jam you are with Garland today. Teams will back off because of boras. That said, there may not be a match this year. So we will probably keep the overrated 240 hitter THIS YEAR.

 

I have answered your questions I believe, and now I am done on this thread. I am certain you will bring up the same argument when you start another thread.

[Guest JimH]

I am certain you will bring up the same argument when you start another thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Now THAT'S funny !

[YASNY]

 

Now THAT'S funny !

 

Sad, actually.

[VAfan]

Well VA we will see who is right. I have no written proof. I will emphatically state that Garland will sign with a team on the west coast specifically california within two years. (He may not have a choice this year) I guess we will have to wait. I am willing to do so. I am a very patient man. I will also state his time with us is extremely limited despite the fact you like him. I do believe his trade value is more when dealing with a west coast team, because I do believe he has made it known he would rather play on the west coast. If he gets traded to the Dodgers padres or angels, he will sign longer term.I am sure KW doesn't give a s*** if you like him or anyone else. I would suspect they do not want to jump way over garcia or Buerhle's salaries too much or else they get themselves in a 2007 jam. I am certain KW is thinking ahead.

 

Now as far as Crede, he may not be traded THIS YEAR but he will not be in the Sox plans in 2008 because of Boras. So if you have a taker now then trade him. Reason is because you will be in the same jam you are with Garland today. Teams will back off because of boras. That said, there may not be a match this year. So we will probably keep the overrated 240 hitter THIS YEAR.

 

I have answered your questions I believe, and now I am done on this thread. I am certain you will bring up the same argument when you start another thread.

 

So, in other words, I post a statement from AJ Pierzynski, and you respond with .... nothing?

 

I'm not predicting anything. I've made the point, backed up completely by numbers, that Garland was our second best pitcher last year. And I've refuted the point that, at 26, he's somehow reached the zenith of his career in 2005 and will never be more valuable than he is now. I would not be surprised if he were traded, but I certainly hope the Sox don't just push him out the door by making a lowball offer and then claiming they couldn't sign him. If he won't take a market 3-year deal, then I'm ready to move on. But I have no illusions that Javier Vazquez will be an improvement over Jon Garland for the next two years of Vazquez's contract.

 

As for Crede, who doesn't know about Scott Boras? But it is ridiculous to just throw up your hands and say - that's it. If he's got Boras as his agent, he's automatically gone. What if Mark Buehrle signed Scott Boras as his agent. Would you put him on the block tomorrow?

 

I'll take this bet - that Joe Crede is an "overrated .240 hitter." I would wager that Crede won't hit as low as .240 in any year for the next 5. I would also wager, unless his back forces him on the DL, that his 22 HRs from 2005 will be his new floor.

 

I don't know what you were watching in the postseason, but Joe Crede was right there with Paul Konerko and Jermaine Dye (in the WS) as our most dangerous hitter. His 2B drove in the winning run in game 2 against the Angels. He hit the HR to tie game 5 against the Angels, and drove in the winning run in that game too. Against Houston, he hit the go-ahead HR that won game 1 (not to mention at least 2 game-saving stops at 3B). Plus, he started the 5-run rally against a cruising Roy Oswalt with a HR in game 3. That's 4 out of our 11 wins where Crede was perhaps the key offensive player in our lineup. Pretty good for an "overrated .240 hitter."

 

All Boras's clients want is money. The Sox can either choose to pay up or let the guy go elsewhere.

 

I think Joe Crede finally figured out his hitting problems last year, and we'll now see a guy who may slump a little when he's not hot, but won't fall off the deep end like he did for two months of last year. So, this is the last point at which Crede will be available for a bargain price. I think the Sox should take advantage of their opporutnity.

[Guest JimH]

So, in other words, I post a statement from AJ Pierzynski, and you respond with .... nothing?

 

I'm not predicting anything.  I've made the point, backed up completely by numbers, that Garland was our second best pitcher last year.  And I've refuted the point that, at 26, he's somehow reached the zenith of his career in 2005 and will never be more valuable than he is now.  I would not be surprised if he were traded, but I certainly hope the Sox don't just push him out the door by making a lowball offer and then claiming they couldn't sign him.  If he won't take a market 3-year deal, then I'm ready to move on.  But I have no illusions that Javier Vazquez will be an improvement over Jon Garland for the next two years of Vazquez's contract. 

 

As for Crede, who doesn't know about Scott Boras?  But it is ridiculous to just throw up your hands and say - that's it.  If he's got Boras as his agent, he's automatically gone.  What if Mark Buehrle signed Scott Boras as his agent.  Would you put him on the block tomorrow? 

 

I'll take this bet - that Joe Crede is an "overrated .240 hitter."  I would wager that Crede won't hit as low as .240 in any year for the next 5.  I would also wager, unless his back forces him on the DL, that his 22 HRs from 2005 will be his new floor. 

 

I don't know what you were watching in the postseason, but Joe Crede was right there with Paul Konerko and Jermaine Dye (in the WS) as our most dangerous hitter.  His 2B drove in the winning run in game 2 against the Angels.  He hit the HR to tie game 5 against the Angels, and drove in the winning run in that game too.  Against Houston, he hit the go-ahead HR that won game 1 (not to mention at least 2 game-saving stops at 3B).  Plus, he started the 5-run rally against a cruising Roy Oswalt with a HR in game 3.  That's 4 out of our 11 wins where Crede was perhaps the key offensive player in our lineup.  Pretty good for an "overrated .240 hitter."

 

All Boras's clients want is money.  The Sox can either choose to pay up or let the guy go elsewhere. 

 

I think Joe Crede finally figured out his hitting problems last year, and we'll now see a guy who may slump a little when he's not hot, but won't fall off the deep end like he did for two months of last year.  So, this is the last point at which Crede will be available for a bargain price.  I think the Sox should take advantage of their opporutnity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What are you smoking, of course Garland will tell Pierzynski he wants to stay and of course Pierzynski will leak it out at his "we're all so happy" press conference.

 

What is Garland going to say, "Well, let's see. I am from southern California, I go there to live every off season and furthermore, my fiancee is from Hawaii. Oh and my mother lives in SoCal too. But you know what, I really like the Chicago White Sox, I would love to stay. That is, I would love to stay as long as they pay me the most money, probably more so than any team on the west coast would pay me, but don't tell them that AJ, just tell them I would like to stay with the White Sox."

 

It is called reading between the lines, seeing what the GM says and does and what he's done in the past.

 

As for Crede, this is about the 20th time you've said they should lock him up at a bargain price. Yeah right, they'll get a bargain price from Scott Boras. Do you think it's coincidence they don't draft Boras clients, they don't trade for Boras clients, they don't sign Boras clients? If Buehrle changed agents to Boras tomorrow, guess what, they wouldn't sign him after 2007 or 2008.

 

Yeah, but this is our window to lock Crede up at a bargain price.

[Guest JimH]

But I have no illusions that Javier Vazquez will be an improvement over Jon Garland for the next two years of Vazquez's contract. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is because numbers are completely front brain for you and you probably haven't seen Vazquez pitch much.

 

There is a reason the White Sox have been chasing this guy since 2002.

[quickman]

So, in other words, I post a statement from AJ Pierzynski, and you respond with .... nothing?

 

I'm not predicting anything.  I've made the point, backed up completely by numbers, that Garland was our second best pitcher last year.  And I've refuted the point that, at 26, he's somehow reached the zenith of his career in 2005 and will never be more valuable than he is now.  I would not be surprised if he were traded, but I certainly hope the Sox don't just push him out the door by making a lowball offer and then claiming they couldn't sign him.  If he won't take a market 3-year deal, then I'm ready to move on.  But I have no illusions that Javier Vazquez will be an improvement over Jon Garland for the next two years of Vazquez's contract. 

 

As for Crede, who doesn't know about Scott Boras?  But it is ridiculous to just throw up your hands and say - that's it.  If he's got Boras as his agent, he's automatically gone.  What if Mark Buehrle signed Scott Boras as his agent.  Would you put him on the block tomorrow? 

 

I'll take this bet - that Joe Crede is an "overrated .240 hitter."  I would wager that Crede won't hit as low as .240 in any year for the next 5.  I would also wager, unless his back forces him on the DL, that his 22 HRs from 2005 will be his new floor. 

 

I don't know what you were watching in the postseason, but Joe Crede was right there with Paul Konerko and Jermaine Dye (in the WS) as our most dangerous hitter.  His 2B drove in the winning run in game 2 against the Angels.  He hit the HR to tie game 5 against the Angels, and drove in the winning run in that game too.  Against Houston, he hit the go-ahead HR that won game 1 (not to mention at least 2 game-saving stops at 3B).  Plus, he started the 5-run rally against a cruising Roy Oswalt with a HR in game 3.  That's 4 out of our 11 wins where Crede was perhaps the key offensive player in our lineup.  Pretty good for an "overrated .240 hitter."

 

All Boras's clients want is money.  The Sox can either choose to pay up or let the guy go elsewhere. 

 

I think Joe Crede finally figured out his hitting problems last year, and we'll now see a guy who may slump a little when he's not hot, but won't fall off the deep end like he did for two months of last year.  So, this is the last point at which Crede will be available for a bargain price.  I think the Sox should take advantage of their opporutnity.

 

 

I am trying to keep my composure with you. You argue like my 9 year old changing words around. You called me out in one of your endless arguments. I responded to your question. "I have no written evidence that garland wants to go to the West coast" I state that I beleive I am right and we will wait and see. In addition I commented that Crede will not be in the Whitesox plans in 2008 and I stated my reasoning for that. I did not challenge you to any bet despite what you may have appeared to read. Now I do think Crede is a below average hitter. Thats my opinion. To answer your other question in the last thread if Buerhle was represented by Boras he would not be signed either. Again show me who on this team beside Crede is represented by Boras. In addition who have we signed in recent history that is a boras client.

 

Let me know how I can be more clear to you. Its really quite a simple post. Garland will be gone and will eventually sign to a team on the West Coast and Crede will eventually be gone because of Boras. Simple stuff. Not too hard to comprehend.

Edited December 21, 2005 by quickman

[Kyyle23]

I've made the point, backed up completely by numbers, that Garland was our second best pitcher last year.  And I've refuted the point that, at 26, he's somehow reached the zenith of his career in 2005 and will never be more valuable than he is now.  I would not be surprised if he were traded, but I certainly hope the Sox don't just push him out the door by making a lowball offer and then claiming they couldn't sign him.

 

There is such a thing as reading too far in to what others are saying, and I have to say that this is a classic example of that, VAfan. Who said that Jon Garland is at the zenith of his career? Who said that this is as good as he is ever going to be? You keep confusing "We can trade Jon Garland for MAX value right now" with "Jon Garland isnt going to get any better, therefore we must trade him.". Noone said Garland sucks, Noone said Garland isnt going to get any better.

 

What everyone else is doing right now, besides you, is stepping back and realizing that Jon Garland probably doesnt see himself staying with the White Sox past his arbitration years because of a multitude(hawkism!) of reasons, among them being A) the White Sox are not going to be in a position to pay him what he will command in the open market, B ) He is a SoCal native, C) He has been jerked around by the White Sox organization in the past, D) he probably doesnt care for the media perception of him in this town, etc. al.

In other words, it probably isnt in the cards. Now the White Sox have to make a business decision and attempt to fortify positions for the future because they have extra pitching right now. This team is damn good, and trading Jon away isnt going to change the face of the team.

 

This isnt to say that something will not be done. KW could be posturing and something could be worked out. But this isnt a likely scenario. While i will be sorry to see Garland go, I will certainly understand his reasoning.

 

You are far too sentimental about holding on to players.

[quickman]

There is such a thing as reading too far in to what others are saying, and I have to say that this is a classic example of that, VAfan.  Who said that Jon Garland is at the zenith of his career?  Who said that this is as good as he is ever going to be?  You keep confusing "We can trade Jon Garland for MAX value right now" with "Jon Garland isnt going to get any better, therefore we must trade him.".  Noone said Garland sucks,  Noone said Garland isnt going to get any better. 

 

What everyone else is doing right now, besides you, is stepping back and realizing that Jon Garland probably doesnt see himself staying with the White Sox past his arbitration years because of a multitude(hawkism!) of reasons, among them being A) the White Sox are not going to be in a position to pay him what he will command in the open market, B ) He is a SoCal native, C) He has been jerked around by the White Sox organization in the past, D) he probably doesnt care for the media perception of him in this town, etc. al.

In other words, it probably isnt in the cards.  Now the White Sox have to make a business decision and attempt to fortify positions for the future because they have extra pitching right now.  This team is damn good, and trading Jon away isnt going to change the face of the team. 

 

This isnt to say that something will not be done.  KW could be posturing and something could be worked out.  But this isnt a likely scenario.  While i will be sorry to see Garland go, I will certainly understand his reasoning. 

 

You are far too sentimental about holding on to players.

 

 

Yes Kyyle very nice post. Hopefully your English is better than mine.