Juan Pierre Dossier

[chitownsportsfan]

The best part about trading Rowand: perhaps the endless dicussion about CF in 2006. Juan Pierre is a name often throwed around as a possible replacement. Here is the 411 on Juan.

 

Juan made 3.6 million last year, and is set to make over 4 million after arbitration this winter.

 

Pierre had over 200 hits last year, but his OBP was a measly .326. His OPS was only .680. He did steal 57 bases, and had a nice success rate of .77. He also struck out (45) more times than he walked (41).

 

His numbers last year indicate a player who has good speed but rarely gets on base to use it. Don't let his batting average fool you: Pierre has poor plate discipline. His "equivalent average", which is a good measure of a players total offensive output (much better than BA, regardless of what you think of Moneyball and the like) was only .257. Before you go crazy and yell about stat geeks, realize that Arow's EQA was .267, which they consider, for his plus defense, a nice enough number.

 

Juan's career numbers aren't much better. He is 28 and has a career ops of .730, having a career avg of .305. Note that in the prime of his career, at 28, 2005 was actually a down year for Juan--he regressed. He hit only .276 in 2005. He wasn't getting on base nearly enough to take full advantage of his speed. In fact, from 2003 to 2005, Juan's offensive indicators have taken a nosedive:

 

BB/SO:

2003: 1.57

2004: 1.29

2005: .91

 

BB/PA

2003: .71

2004: .61

2005: .58

 

Somehow, he is seeing more P/PA in the last three years:

2003: 3.44

2004: 3.51

2005: 3.69

 

For easy comparison, Uribe averaged 3.83 in 2004, and 3.54 in 2005. Both are impatient hitters.

 

 

Offensively, Juan is not what any team needs in CF, at least not the free swinging, light hitting Juan of 2005. If he can somehow return to hsi 2003-2004 numbers, then he might be a decent enough option, but that is a big stretch. Juan's stats from those years are nice, but his plate discipline has not improved since 2003, and it appears his 2005 numbers, (which are much closer to his career numbers) are the real Juan Pierre.

 

Granted, he could bust it up next year, stranger things have happened, but I wouldn't bet on it. Coming from the inferior NL will make it even harder.

 

For his career, it has been noted be stat geeks and "old school" scouts that Pierre is at best an average defensive centerfielder with a an average arm.

 

I really don't see what the fuss is about Juan. IMO, it is in no way worth it to trade any prospect for him, when a better option in B.A. already exists. The Sox offense needs to get better, not worse, Pierre was worse than Rowand offensively, both for his career and in 2005. I believe Anderson has to be at least on par with the Rowand of 2005, with slightly worse batting being offset by slightly better defense. Throw in the fact that his is going to be over 3.5 million dollars cheaper than Pierre, and it's a no brainer.

Edited November 24, 2005 by chitownsportsfan

[Jordan4life_2007]

Um, thanks?

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Yes.. I totally agree... the fact is that Pierre is a joke... and the cubs are the ones who need a joke in CF

[Gene Honda Civic]

NSBB will appreciate this

[Felix]

Pierre had over 200 hits last year, but his OBP was a measly .326.  His OPS was only .680.  He did steal 57 bases, and had a nice success rate of .77.  He also struck out (45) more times than he walked (41).

He had 181 hits last year, not 200.

[chitownsportsfan]

Yea, whoops, he had over 200 hits in 2004 I believe. Obviously I was looking at his stats for awile today, must have gotten that one a bit jumbled up!

[winninguglyin83]

what kind of fielder is he?

 

Can he cover the gaps?

 

Arm?

[Steve9347]

I really don't see what the fuss is about Juan.  IMO, it is in no way worth it to trade any prospect for him, when a better option in B.A. already exists.  The Sox offense needs to get better, not worse, Pierre was worse than Rowand offensively, both for his career and in 2005.  I believe Anderson has to be at least on par with the Rowand of 2005, with slightly worse batting being offset by slightly better defense.  Throw in the fact that his is going to be over 3.5 million dollars cheaper than Pierre, and it's a no brainer.

 

nice research. im fine with throwing Brian Anderson out there, bumping him at the 8 position, and moving Crede up to Rowand's spot.

 

Our lineup, praying the Paulie is back, is then...

 

1. Pods

2. Gooch

3. Dye

4. Thome

5. Konerko (maybe you moved Thome and Konerko up a spot, bumping Dye down to 3, but in the World Series, Dye was quite good in the three-hole)

6. Pierzynski

7. Crede

8. Anderson

9. Uribe

 

I think Juan turns the lineup over quite well for Podsednik. I said it last year, there are no holes in this lineup. All of these players can come up with a big hit when needed. No need for Pierre, give the kid a chance, and keep the farmhands we have instead of dealing for Pierre.

 

plus we do have 12 guys who throw the ball who are all pretty f***ing good.

[YASNY]

nice research.  im fine with throwing Brian Anderson out there, bumping him at the 8 position, and moving Crede up to Rowand's spot.

 

Our lineup, praying the Paulie is back, is then...

 

1. Pods

2. Gooch

3. Dye

4. Thome

5. Konerko  (maybe you moved Thome and Konerko up a spot, bumping Dye down to 3, but in the World Series, Dye was quite good in the three-hole)

6. Pierzynski

7. Crede

8. Anderson

9. Uribe

 

I think Juan turns the lineup over quite well for Podsednik.  I said it last year, there are no holes in this lineup.  All of these players can come up with a big hit when needed.  No need for Pierre, give the kid a chance, and keep the farmhands we have instead of dealing for Pierre.

 

plus we do have 12 guys who throw the ball who are all pretty f***ing good.

 

That is the exact every day line up I would go with.

[Rowand44]

That is the exact every day line up I would go with.

I probably put Paul in the 3 slot, though like I told boz I understand completely why you made the lineup like that. It's so nice to just look at that lineup though and realize we finally have a left handed thumper...it's been a while.

Edited November 25, 2005 by Rowand44

[SSH2005]

I don't understand why people think that either Dye or Konerko (if we re-sign him) should or will be our #3 hitter. You guys realize that a healthy Thome will instantly be our best hitter, right? Thome has actually hit well in the 3-hole in his career. Konerko has barely done it and has been brutal there when he has. The lineup would look more like this.

 

Podsednik

Iguchi

Thome

Konerko

Dye

Pierzynski

Crede

Anderson

Uribe

 

Afterall, are you not going to put the guy with a .970 career OPS in the 3-hole?

[Rowand44]

I don't understand why people think that either Dye or Konerko (if we re-sign him) should or will be our #3 hitter.  You guys realize that a healthy Thome will instantly be our best hitter, right?  Thome has actually hit well in the 3-hole in his career.  Konerko has barely done it and has been brutal there when he has.  The lineup would look more like this.

 

Podsednik

Iguchi

Thome

Konerko

Dye

Pierzynski

Crede

Anderson

Uribe

 

Afterall, are you not going to put the guy with a .970 career OPS in the 3-hole? 

Ozzie loves splitting up the righties in the middle of the order when he has the opportunity and he's said so many times. There's a good chance Jim will hit cleanup next year.

[SSH2005]

Ozzie loves splitting up the righties in the middle of the order when he has the opportunity and he's said so many times.  There's a good chance Jim will hit cleanup next year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, if Ozzie wants to split them up he could go with the following lineup:

 

Podsednik (lefty)

Iguchi (righty)

Thome (lefty)

Konerko (righty)

Pierzynski (lefty)

Dye (righty)

Crede (righty)

Anderson (righty)

Uribe (righty)

 

I just think Dye would be a much better #5 hitter than Pierzynski. But Thome will be our #3 hitter regardless of what the rest of the lineup looks like. You bat your best hitter third and that would be Thome. Konerko is a cleanup hitter and Dye is most definately not a #3 hitter.

Edited November 25, 2005 by SSH2005

[Rowand44]

Okay, if Ozzie wants to split them up he could go with the following lineup:

 

Podsednik (lefty)

Iguchi (righty)

Thome (lefty)

Konerko (righty)

Pierzynski (lefty)

Dye (righty)

Crede (righty)

Anderson (righty)

Uribe (righty)

 

I just think Dye would be a much better #5 hitter than Pierzynski.  But Thome will be our #3 hitter regardless of what the rest of the lineup looks like.  You bat your best hitter third and that would be Thome.  Konerko is a cleanup hitter and Dye is most definately not a #3 hitter.

Are you Ozzie or something?? There's definitely a better chance that Thome bats cleanup and Dye or Paul hitting 5th compared to Thome batting 3rd and AJ batting 5th imo. Like I said, Ozzie loves breaking up the righties in his lineup and I don't see Aj hitting 5th, not a chance imho.

[Felix]

I don't understand why people think that either Dye or Konerko (if we re-sign him) should or will be our #3 hitter.  You guys realize that a healthy Thome will instantly be our best hitter, right?  Thome has actually hit well in the 3-hole in his career.  Konerko has barely done it and has been brutal there when he has.  The lineup would look more like this.

 

Podsednik

Iguchi

Thome

Konerko

Dye

Pierzynski

Crede

Anderson

Uribe

 

Afterall, are you not going to put the guy with a .970 career OPS in the 3-hole? 

Exactly. I'm quite confused seeing everyone put Dye in the #3 hole. You put your best hitter there, and if healthy, thats where Thome should be.

[SSH2005]

Thome: 963 career AB's batting third

Konerko: 69 career AB's batting third

Dye: 25 career AB's batting third

 

I'm taking a real flier here -- Thome will be batting third. Did everyone miss when we had no true #3 hitter last season?

[Rowand44]

Thome:  963 career AB's batting third

Konerko:  69 career AB's batting third

Dye:  25 career AB's batting third

 

I'm taking a real flier here -- Thome will be batting third.    Did everyone miss when we had no true #3 hitter last season? 

..and the difference is what from Paul and Thome flipping in the order?? Thome when healthy is a better slugger and a better obp guy, so if Paul hits 3rd Thome has more opportunities to hit the ball out of the park with a good obp guy in front of him. If Thome hits 3rd then he gets on base more for Paul to knock him in more. Now the difference between Aj and Jermaine is pretty big, JD is a much better hitter. Dye is going to hit 3 or 5 and with Ozzie loving to play the righty-lefty game there is a good chance Thome hits clean up.

[SSH2005]

..and the difference is what from Paul and Thome flipping in the order??  Thome when healthy is a better slugger and a better obp guy, so if Paul hits 3rd Thome has more opportunities to hit the ball out of the park with a good obp guy in front of him.  If Thome hits 3rd then he gets on base more for Paul to knock him in more.  Now the difference between Aj and Jermaine is pretty big, JD is a much better hitter.  Dye is going to hit 3 or 5 and with Ozzie loving to play the righty-lefty game there is a good chance Thome hits clean up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where in the order did Konerko hit almost all of last season? Where was he moved to in the order where he failed miserably? Where in the order has Thome batted quite a bit in his career and excelled there? What didn't we have last season? It's just so obvious who our #3 hitter will be. And aren't the righties split up at the top of this batting order?

 

Podsednik (lefty)

Iguchi (righty)

Thome (lefty)

Konerko (righty)

Dye (righty)

Pierzynski (lefty)

Crede (righty)

Anderson (righty)

Uribe (righty)

 

Konerko hits righties better than lefties anyways. He has always had trouble with tough lefties. Dye has always hit lefties better than righties. So worrying about the righty-lefty order is a bit overrated.

[Rowand44]

Where in the order did Konerko hit almost all of last season?  Where was he moved to in the order where he failed miserably?  Where in the order has Thome batted quite a bit in his career and excelled there?  What didn't we have last season?  It's just so obvious who our #3 hitter will be.  And aren't the righties split up at the top of this batting order?

 

Podsednik (lefty)

Iguchi (righty)

Thome (lefty)

Konerko (righty)

Dye (righty)

Pierzynski (lefty)

Crede (righty)

Anderson (righty)

Uribe (righty)

 

Konerko hits righties better than lefties anyways.  He has always had trouble with tough lefties.  Dye has always hit lefties better than righties.  So worrying about the righty-lefty order is a bit overrated.

 

Paul had 26 at bats there so I don't think anyone is going to judge him on that. We would have had a 3 hitter if Paul was moved there last year but then we wouldn't have had a clean up hitter. We were missing a middle of the order hitter last year and that it what Thome is no matter where he hits in the middle. Once again, Ozzie has said as recently as the playoffs that he likes splitting up the righties in the middle of his order. You're not thinking like Ozzie, he likes doing things in a traditional baseball sense when it comes to the righty-lefty stuff. There is a good chance, a very good chance that Thome hits 4th this year whether all of us agree with it or disagree with it.

Edited November 25, 2005 by Rowand44

[SSH2005]

Paul had 26 at bats there so I don't think anyone is going to judge him on that.  We would have had a 3 hitter if Paul was moved there last year but then we wouldn't have had a clean up hitter.  We were missing a middle of the order hitter last year and that it what Thome is no matter where he hits in the middle.  Once again, Ozzie has said as recently as the playoffs that he likes splitting up the righties in the middle of his order.  You're not thinking like Ozzie, he likes doing things in a traditional baseball sense when it comes to the righty-lefty stuff.  There is a good chance, a very good chance that Thome hits 4th this year whether all of us agree with it or disagree with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We shall see. I think even Ozzie will realize that Thome is the best hitter in our lineup, even if we do re-sign Konerko. I am putting my money on the lineup in my last post.

Edited November 25, 2005 by SSH2005

[NorthSideSox72]

Thome will be our best hitter, unless he's not on the field because of an injury. And lefty/righty isn't everything - as pointed out here, PK hits righties better anyway. Style of hitting and specific skills are more important. Also, let's not forget that Ozzie wants a new 2-hole hitter, as well as a CF. Therefore...

 

Pods

Owens

Thome

Konerko

Dye

Pierzynski

Iguchi

Crede

Uribe

 

I like it!

[LosMediasBlancas]

Read near the bottom, Sox not interested in Pierre. Sorry if this was posted already elsewhere.

 

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/whitesox.asp?id=125348

[YASNY]

Dye looked good at number 3 in the post season. It may not shake out that way, but it's the way I'd do it heading into ST.