Prospects for Players

[OldSox2]

Kenny wrote another chapter in trading great prospect(s) for an established, over the hill player who might help for one year, two at the most IF he (Thome) can still hit. I don't get it. Among other things, we solved a serious dilemma for the Phillies. They didn't want Thome; they want to play Howard at First Base. He is a much better player and his salary is the minimum. So who can they go to to take Thome and half his salary off their hands? Kenny and the White Sox. I still can't visualize how they talked Kenny out of Gio. I bet they're laughing in Philadelphia, harder than when we traded Johnny Calison for Gene Freese back in 1960.

[OilCan]

Funny, that's what they said about Jermaine Dye and Carl Everett also last year. Wonder what they did???

[palehose23]

Kenny wrote another chapter in trading great prospect(s) for an established, over the hill player who might help for one year, two at the most IF he (Thome) can still hit.  I don't get it.  Among other things, we solved a serious dilemma for the Phillies.  They didn't want Thome; they want to play Howard at First Base.  He is a much better player and his salary is the minimum.  So who can they go to to take Thome and half his salary off their hands?  Kenny and the White Sox.  I still can't visualize how they talked Kenny out of Gio.  I bet they're laughing in Philadelphia, harder than when we traded Johnny Calison for Gene Freese back in 1960.

 

I remember when KW traded prospects (Olivo, Morse, Reed) for a established, maybe not all the way over the hill player who might help them for one year (Freddy "The Rock" Garcia) that worked out pretty well didn't it?

 

Sox won the WORLD SERIES with only 3 Players from their system (Buerhle, Crede, Rowand)- all those prospects that we heard about in the 90's Kevin Beirne, Aaron Myette, Brian Schmack, Jeff Abbott, Jon Rauch,Jason Dellearo,Joe Borchard,Craig Wilson,Mitch Wylie etc- where are they at now?

 

I just think that KW has at least bought himself some latitude by winning the Series with his trade and free agent acquisitions

[OldSox2]

Kenny wrote another chapter in trading great prospect(s) for an established, over the hill player who might help for one year, two at the most IF he (Thome) can still hit.  I don't get it.  Among other things, we solved a serious dilemma for the Phillies.  They didn't want Thome; they want to play Howard at First Base.  He is a much better player and his salary is the minimum.  So who can they go to to take Thome and half his salary off their hands?  Kenny and the White Sox.  I still can't visualize how they talked Kenny out of Gio.  I bet they're laughing in Philadelphia, harder than when we traded Johnny Calison for Gene Freese back in 1960.

 

I don't remember giving up any prospects for Dye. As for everett, the prospects were not of the sme quality as GIO.

[SnB]

how are miguel olivo and jeremy reed doing?

 

Freddy garcia was a huge part of our WORLD SERIES team.

Olivo and reed were both highly touted prospects as well and both have turned out to be big dissapointments.

 

I'd do prospects for a guy like thome everytime.

[Flash Tizzle]

I agree, to an extent.

 

Phillies were desperate to unload Thome. Why did we concede to Haigwood and Gio? Phillies should have eaten more of the contract for the package of Rowand/Haigwood/Gonzalez.

 

Problem I have with this move is we've set ourselves back several years in the pitching department. Unless someone pulls a McCarthy and advances quickly, we're going to have problems in a few years when our starting pitchers command high salaries. Although if one, ideally two, of Young/Sweeney/Anderson/Owens steps up and contributes in the outfield it will help defer payments of large contracts.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[RME JICO]

It is hard to question KW's move after what he has done over the last few years. There are obviously things we do not know. He is the master at getting undervalued players for overvalued players.

 

I remember the Pods deal was also largely questioned and look how that turned out. The Freddy Garcia deal was another one - the Sox gave up Olivo, Morse, and Reed, and look how that turned out for both sides. Also, don't forget the Phillies are paying $22 Million over the next 3 years. That is not chump change by no means.

 

Granted, right off the bat it is hard to see why the Sox are giving up their starting CF, and 2 LH pitching prospects for a player the Phils deemed expendable with the emergence of Howard.

 

You have to also look at the residual effects of this trade. This trade with the buyouts of Frank and Carl frees up cash to resign Paulie. The Rowand move allows the Sox OF prospects to get some big league time. Just take your pick there, the Sox are loaded at OF in the minors with Brian Anderson getting the first crack.

 

So the only questionable move are the 2 prospects, and right now thats all they are. The Sox have actually done a better job of picking up other teams pitching talent compared to grooming their own thru the farm system. Even by losing the Haigwood and Gio, the Sox still have Liotta, Haeger, and Broadway, so the system in not completely depleted of pitching prospects.

Edited November 26, 2005 by WinninUgly

[Flash Tizzle]

how are miguel olivo and jeremy reed doing?

 

Freddy garcia was a huge part of our WORLD SERIES team.

Olivo and reed were both highly touted prospects as well and both have turned out to be big dissapointments.

 

I'd do prospects for a guy like thome everytime.

 

The past failures of traded prospects shouldn't be a compliment to Williams, but a detriment to our system.

 

I'll admit now I was very upset Williams gave up Morse, Reed, and Olivo for Garica. But due to Garica's pitching in the playoffs, regardless of how those three finish their careers, it was worth it.

 

In a few years, who knows? Perhaps Haigwood and Gonzalez are both fixtures in the Phillies rotation while we're inserting jobber 4th/5th starters from the waiver wire. I simply don't like how both prospects were included. The package Williams provided is one I'd expect from a HEALTHY Thome. Not one removed from a terrible, godawful, injury ridden season. Let's hope he's healthy this year.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[3E8]

I'm still upset about this trade and the only reason I believe KW gave up as much as he did is because he felt strong competition in the market for Thome.

[KevHead0881]

You know, if you want team that chooses prospects over proven commodities, you can always root for the Royals or D-Rays.

 

And this isn't exactly a new philosophy for the Sox. A large portion of our team consists of guys we obtained while sacrificing prospects. Prospects don't always pan out. Hell, most of them don't.

 

Sorry, but I'll choose the "WIN NOW" mentality.

[RME JICO]

I'm still upset about this trade and the only reason I believe KW gave up as much as he did is because he felt strong competition in the market for Thome.

There was very limited competition since Thome had a No-Trade clause and he said that the only 2 teams he would go to would be the Sox or the Indians.

[3E8]

There was very limited competition since Thome had a No-Trade clause and he said that the only 2 teams he would go to would be the Sox or the Indians.

You can feel strong competition from one other party.

[Gene Honda Civic]

You know, if you want team that chooses prospects over proven commodities, you can always root for the Royals or D-Rays.

or Twins.... They have continually refused to trade anyone prospect of value.

 

They weren't able to get over the top, and are probably primed for a severe downturn in # of victories in the next few years. -- They protected the wrong guys at a point when just giving up a few of them could have put them over the top, but refused.

[RME JICO]

You can feel strong competition from one other party.

I said limited not weak. Yes, I am sure the Sox are happy they don't have to face Thome again, he is now on our side.

 

Here is a quick rundown of most of the current players and what organizations they came thru to get to the Sox:

 

1B - Konerko (Dodgers/Reds)

2B - Iguchi (Japan)

SS - Uribe (Rockies)

3B - Crede

C - Pierzinski (Twins/Giants)

LF - Podsednik (Rangers/Mariners/Brewers)

CF - Anderson

RF - Dye (Braves/Royals/A's)

SUB - Harris (Orioles)

SUB - Widger (Mariners/Expos/Yanks/Cards)

SUB - Perez (Mets)

SUB - Ozuna (Cards/Marlins/Rockies)

 

SP - Buerhle

SP - Garcia (Astros/Mariners)

SP - Garland (Cubs)

SP - Contreras (Yankees)

SP - McCarthy

 

RP - Jenks (Angels)

RP - Cotts (A's)

RP - Politte (Cards, Phils, Blue Jays)

RP - Hermanson (Pads, Expos, Cards, Sawks, Cards, Giants)

RP - Hernandez (Yankees)

RP - Vizcaino (A's/Brewers)

RP - Marte (Mariners/Pirates)

 

So 4 players out of this bunch came up thru the organization, and the rest were acquired from another team (from 2005 you can add Everett and Blum).

Edited November 26, 2005 by WinninUgly

[jphat007]

I would have liked to have seen the reaction if he didn't trade for Thome in time, Paulie didn't resign, and we had to go with Pods, Rowand, Anderson in the outfield and Dye at first with Frank Thomas spending each and every at bat swinging for the fences to try and reach 500.

 

That's one VERY viable option if he doesn't trade for Thome. We would have a terrible year with a terrible (much worse than last year) offense and lose all of our momentum from the World Series Championship. We'd have been like the Twins this past year with great pitching and no hitting.

 

And our precious Haigwood and GIO would be of zero help in that regard, unless they have a hidden talent of getting on base at a crazy clip and hitting 30-40 bombs.

Edited November 26, 2005 by jphat007

[RME JICO]

And our precious Haigwood and GIO would be of zero help in that regard, unless they have a hidden talent of getting on base at a crazy clip and hitting 30-40 bombs.

I heard Haigwood was a monster in T-Ball!

 

Seriously though, you are right. All these moves are based off of timing. KW's main consideration is building another winner in 2006 by shoring up the few areas that needed addressing from last year. So he uses the organization's wealth of prospects and OFers and attacks the weaknesses by adding a Lefty with power for move #1.

[SSH2005]

I would have liked to have seen the reaction if he didn't trade for Thome in time, Paulie didn't resign, and we had to go with Pods, Rowand, Anderson in the outfield and Dye at first with Frank Thomas spending each and every at bat swinging for the fences to try and reach 500.

 

That's one VERY viable option if he doesn't trade for Thome. We would have a terrible year with a terrible (much worse than last year) offense and lose all of our momentum from the World Series Championship. We'd have been like the Twins this past year with great pitching and no hitting.

 

And our precious Haigwood and GIO would be of zero help in that regard, unless they have a hidden talent of getting on base at a crazy clip and hitting 30-40 bombs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it was a good trade for us but I don't see how you can dislike the Beckett, Lowell, and Mota trade and the Delgado trade but love the Thome trade. Good prospects were given up in all three trades.

Edited November 26, 2005 by SSH2005

[Buehrle>Wood]

KW(or someone else) needs to write a "Moneyball" type book, discussing how most of your prospects will amount to nothing and should be traded at the height of their value.

 

Atleast that formula has seen success.

[jphat007]

I think it was a good trade for us but I don't see how you can dislike the Beckett, Lowell, and Mota trade and the Delgado trade but love the Thome trade.  Good prospects were given up in all three trades.

 

Wow. Just wow. How many times do I have to explain it? Seriously. It's getting a little ridiculous. I never said I didn't like the Beckett trade. I said I don't think he is an Ace, certainly not in the AL, and that I think he is overrated and Lowell sucks. Boston needed ANY kind of decent pitching though, so it was a good deal for a guy that will be a low 2, high 3 in the AL. Both Thome and Beckett are both injury risks. But again, I never said it was a bad trade. It's just not as great as everyone seems to think IMO, though getting Mota was nice, but I think he won't do as well in the AL either.

 

But seriously dude, I don't know what else I have to say to get it in your head. I've explained this many times.

 

 

 

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 21, 2005 -> 08:32 PM)

It's a good trade for Boston. Prospects are just prospects. They are not guaranteed to be good in the majors. And Hanley Ramirez's offensive numbers are hardly impressive. The Red Sox actually know that they are getting an ace-quality pitcher if he can stay healthy. Lowell could put up great numbers pulling cheap homers over the monster.

*

 

 

 

1. I'm not sure Beckett is an "Ace" pitcher in the AL. Probably high 3s ERA, especially in Boston. It's not bad by any means, but not great either.

 

2. Lowell sucks. I seriously doubt Boston wants to keep him at all.

 

Additionally. Look at Beckett's splits last year.

 

Away

 

.261 .316 .434 .750 4.31 ERA away last year

 

Away three year splits

 

.263 BAA 4.10 ERA away

 

Ace - Not so much. His home park numbers help him out tremendously.

[SSH2005]

Wow. Just wow. How many times do I have to explain it? Seriously. It's getting a little ridiculous. I never said I didn't like the Beckett trade. I said I don't think he is an Ace, certainly not in the AL, and that I think he is overrated and Lowell sucks. Boston needed ANY kind of decent pitching though, so it was a good deal for a guy that will be a low 2, high 3 in the AL. Both Thome and Beckett are both injury risks. But again, I never said it was a bad trade. It's just not as great as everyone seems to think IMO, though getting Mota was nice, but I think he won't do as well in the AL either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lowell had a horrible 2005 season just like Thome. Does Thome suck because he had a terrible 2005? Other than last season, Lowell usually puts up pretty good numbers just as Thome does. Lowell's usual numbers aren't as good as Thome's usual numbers but they are damn good for a third baseman. You can't bash Lowell for one bad year and praise Thome when he had an equally bad 2005. That was my whole point.

Edited November 26, 2005 by SSH2005

[jphat007]

Lowell had a horrible 2005 season just like Thome.  Does Thome suck because he had a terrible 2005?  Other than last season, Lowell usually puts up pretty good numbers just as Thome does.  Lowell's usual numbers aren't as good as Thome's usual numbers but they are damn good for a third baseman.  That was my hole point.  You can't bash Lowell for one bad year and praise Thome when he had an equally bad 2005.

 

1)THome had a bad April, most of which he tried to play through pain. It was too much so he had to take time off. He came back too soon and tried to play through the pain to no avail, so he eventually ahd to call it quit. It's hard to swing and certainly ahrd to generate any power when you are hurt.

 

2)Lowell was not hurt. The Marlins tried to pawn him off on every team in the major leagues. Nobody would ever do it. They even offered to take some of the awful salary just to get him and his terrible salary out of there. Nobody would bite. WHy? because he sucks. They could ONLY get rid of him when the team with plenty of money to throw away would put him at 3rd and there were immediate rumors of him going off to a place like the Twins because BOston didn't want him. Why? Beacuse he sucks. But he wasn't hurt.

 

The two situations are not even CLOSE to comparable.

 

But all of this is beside the point. You changed the subject after you ONCE AGAIN put words in my mouth. I never said it was a bad trade like you said above. NEVER. So listen. Read and comprehend what I say. It's easy. If you can't do that and have to make up stuff to try and make me look wrong, just don't respond to my posts. It's getting tiresome.

[Rowand44]

Think the Phillies are laughing at the world series ring on Kenny's finger?

[SSH2005]

1)THome had a bad April, most of which he tried to play through pain. It was too much so he had to take time off. He came back too soon and tried to play through the pain to no avail, so he eventually ahd to call it quit. It's hard to swing and certainly ahrd to generate any power when you are hurt.

 

2)Lowell was not hurt. The Marlins tried to pawn him off on every team in the major leagues. Nobody would ever do it. They even offered to take some of the awful salary just to get him and his terrible salary out of there. Nobody would bite. WHy? because he sucks. They could ONLY get rid of him when the team with plenty of money to throw away would put him at 3rd and there were immediate rumors of him going off to a place like the Twins because BOston didn't want him. Why? Beacuse he sucks. But he wasn't hurt.

 

The two situations are not even CLOSE to comparable.

 

But all of this is beside the point. You changed the subject after you ONCE AGAIN put words in my mouth. I never said it was a bad trade like you said above. NEVER. So listen. Read and comprehend what I say. It's easy. If you can't do that and have to make up stuff to try and make me look wrong, just don't respond to my posts. It's getting tiresome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, let me stick to the topic then. Why were you surprised that the Mets and Red Sox gave up such good prospects in their trades but it's no big deal at all that we gave up Gio Gonzalez and Daniel Haigwood? They aren't exactly trash. They were both top ten prospects with us just as the guys the Mets and Red Sox gave up were. In my opinion, all three trades were good for the Mets, Red Sox, and White Sox but we gave up as much if not more than the Mets and Red Sox did.

 

And if Mike Lowell puts up numbers similar to his 2004 season, he will easily be worth $9 million a year.

Edited November 26, 2005 by SSH2005

[jphat007]

Okay, let me stick to the topic then.  Why were you surprised that the Mets and Red Sox gave up such good prospects in their trades but it's no big deal at all that we gave up Gio Gonzalez and Daniel Haigwood?  They aren't exactly trash.  They were both top ten prospects with us just as the guys the Mets and Red Sox gave up were.  In my opinion, all three trades were good for the Mets, Red Sox, and White Sox but we gave up as much if not more than the Mets and Red Sox did.

 

And if Mike Lowell puts up numbers similar to his 2004 season, he will easily be worth $9 million a year.

 

I wasn't surprised. They gave up an overrated prospect for an overrated pitcher. Where did I say I was surprised. My entire thing was that the trade wasn't nearly as good as everyone was making it out to be for the simple fact that it didn't make them a dominant unstoppable team for next year. Are they better? Sure. They got a pitcher who can be a #3 in the AL for someone who wouldn't contribute next year. But I think Beckett was overrated, as I've shown...many, many times, and I was surprised that everyone was making Boston out to be world beaters against just because of this trade.

 

I'm not sure where you are getting this stuff from. Anything I've said about prospects this last week has been about Delgado, who KW didn't want and how CD didn't want to be here, and how the same trade that Boston made would be horrible for US specifically because we didn't need a pitcher or an aging third baseman with a terrible contract.

[southsideirish71]

Sometimes prospects have more worth as trade bait and are not part of the big picture. Just because we drool at seeing some of these guys dominate the lower levels doesnt mean that they are locks for the majors. We had great pitching prospects in the late 90s, the cant miss kids. All I remember hearing was the word Torn Labrum and he has the arm but not the head to go with it.

 

Gio could be the next Santana, then again he could be the next Jim Parque. I think we will forget about this for a while when we see tape measure shots being hit by Thome in the summer of next year.