Which would mean more? Profit or Winning?

[timotime]

veeck. i should have known. now i know more about him than i ever did before. my hats off to you, man.

[Texsox]

veeck. i should have known. now i know more about him than i ever did before. my hats off to you, man.

 

 

I was a stupid, half drunk, underage, college student when I met him at a game. He asked if I was having a good time, and told me there was no better place to be than right here. It was all of 5 seconds, but he made me feel like a was a part of the Sox success. Special person.

[Rowand44]

Yet, I read posters claiming they don't want this player at X dollars, not anything about his on field play. If we write, I'd take player X at $5 mil but not $7 then aren't we concerned about the team profits?

No, what we're concerned about is keeping this team under the self proposed budget so we can add other parts and pieces. I know what you're trying to get at here but this question is crazy and I know your just trying to make a point out of it.

[SnB]

This is a window that doesn't come very often, we have such a solid core returning and with 1 or 2 more moves, we can be world series favorites.

 

Go for it, this next year could be almost as special if we get konerko back.

[Texsox]

No, what we're concerned about is keeping this team under the self proposed budget so we can add other parts and pieces.  I know what you're trying to get at here but this question is crazy and I know your just trying to make a point out of it.

 

How does everybody know what the budget should be? I mean really know. I just can't fathom careing if a player makes an extra million.

 

I understand it makes for a more interesting off season playing GM, but as a fan, I don't really care if JR makes 1 million or 10 million next season.

[Rowand44]

How does everybody know what the budget should be? I mean really know. I just can't fathom careing if a player makes an extra million.

 

I understand it makes for a more interesting off season playing GM, but as a fan, I don't really care if JR makes 1 million or 10 million next season.

Most of us have an idea of what the budget will be around, those two extra million dollars might not seem like a ton but you give a few players an extra two million then that money starts to add up pretty quick. Plus if your paying players more then they're worth you just up the market and that could come back to bite you in the ass a few years down the road.

[LDF]

Bill Veeck, White Sox owner during the South Side Hit Men and Rent a Player days.

Thanks for asking.

great job on the veeck, man i wish jr would do something special for the veeck family in the beginning of next season. he saved the sox for chi.

[LDF]

How does everybody know what the budget should be? I mean really know. I just can't fathom careing if a player makes an extra million.

 

I understand it makes for a more interesting off season playing GM, but as a fan, I don't really care if JR makes 1 million or 10 million next season.

 

i have said jr will go the distance and spend money if he need to, to put the winner on the team. bank on it.

[greg775]

TexSox,

I could give a bleep if the Sox make money.

Though KW and Oz deserve raises for last season.

Who cares about a profit? We are fans. Give us wins.

[mmmmmbeeer]

How does everybody know what the budget should be? I mean really know. I just can't fathom careing if a player makes an extra million.

 

I understand it makes for a more interesting off season playing GM, but as a fan, I don't really care if JR makes 1 million or 10 million next season.

 

Well, if you believe what you read, the Sox don't operate for profit but rather for franchise value. So in a sense we can gauge where the payroll should be for next season based upon last year's payroll increased proportionally to the attendance increases/merchandising increases.

[YASNY]

C'mon TexSox. You know exactly what people are thinking and why they are thinking it when they express concern about $$$ amounts given to this or that player. This is an issue that has been discussed around here since the beginning of Soxtalk.

[qwerty]

How does everybody know what the budget should be? I mean really know. I just can't fathom careing if a player makes an extra million.

 

I understand it makes for a more interesting off season playing GM, but as a fan, I don't really care if JR makes 1 million or 10 million next season.

 

Ya, what the hell. Timo perez is more than worthy of a million dollars even though he is one of the very worst players in the league.

 

Oh and ben davis for a million was pretty good too ( i don't care if he was gonna to be our starter or not)

Edited November 28, 2005 by qwerty

[Texsox]

C'mon TexSox.  You know exactly what people are thinking and why they are thinking it when they express concern about $$$ amounts given to this or that player.  This is an issue that has been discussed around here since the beginning of Soxtalk.

 

And embarrassing as this is to admit, I have never understood it. Plus, I have never known what people are thinking until I ask them. But YAS, I am certain you know what I am thinking now.

[YASNY]

And embarrassing as this is to admit, I have never understood it. Plus, I have never known what people are thinking until I ask them. But YAS, I am certain you know what I am thinking now. 

 

LOL. Touche'.

[Texsox]

LOL. Touche'.

 

Seriously, and maybe it's my age, I can't get excited over a player's contract. I just can't sit here and think wow, we got Thome for $7.2 mil now we can get Inspector Clouseau at $3.6 over 5 with incentives, with a player option at $4.8 and a team option in 2009 for $5.6 unless he averages 120 starts, then he gets $5.8 mil and with the money we save, we can order out for pizza.

 

I'm more, where will he play, where in the batting order, what's he bring that we don't have and what hole did we just create. I don't know where the Sox budget should fall for player salaries, I don't know if they have a ton of fat in the front office that could be trimmed and an extra $3 mil moved to player salaries. I do know that worrying about the team overpaying for someone detracts from my enjoyment. OMG We overpaid $3 million here, the franchise is ruined, we will never reach the playoffs again.

 

But with so many great Sox fans and knowledgeable baseball people here, I wanted to understand the fascination and the excitement of signing a guy to a "good contract". Is it the same as a win on the field?

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

I see that Jerry Reinsdorf voted in this poll!

[YASNY]

Of course it's not the same as a win on the field. The fact remains that it is part of the equation. From available information such as things said by KW and others in the Sox hierarchy, and the past history of JR's handling on the payroll vs. the previous seasons profit/losds margin, we have a ballpark figure of what the budget will probably be. Given that approximate figure, and the known salaries of Sox players, it's not harde to speculate on the value of another player's contract and his comparative value to the team.

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

With re. Steinbrenner...you have to give the guy credit. He spends to give his team it's best chance of winning. Obviously the results haven't been so great over the past few years, but, as an owner, I can't see how you could find anyone better.

 

He wants to win, and backs up his desire with $$$!

[daa84]

If you were truly interested in profits, you wouldn't be investing in a pro sports team. Most have underperformed the market. Most owners went into it as a very expensive hobby after amassing a fortune in their "first career".

 

this is from gammons...so i know some of you will dismiss it, but its largely fact based and it applies here....he said 2/3rds of teams were profitable in 05...a very good read

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2229099

 

Eleven years ago baseball suffered its worst strike, wiping out the World Series and triggering a long, ugly winter of trash-talking and what amounted to the trashing of the Clinton Administration. Owners tried to argue that if there were a salary cap that guaranteed 55 percent of revenues would go to player salaries, everyone would profit.

 

Guess what? Bud Selig and Jerry Reinsdorf and friends had it right. Scott Eyre, who from 2002-2004 had a 4.00 ERA, was 2-for-9 in save opportunities and allowed 183 hits in 184 1/3 innings, got $11 million for three years. The letter guys -- A.J. Burnett and B.J. Ryan -- could haul in $60 million for five years and $36 million for four years, respectively. The Kansas City Royals have two-year deals out there for Kenny Rogers, Elmer Dessens and Reggie Sanders, all reputed to be classmates of Orrin Hatch.

 

Why? The Selig Administration has the industry awash in cash.

 

The Commissioner's Office gave clubs these figures regarding what percentage of revenues go into payroll:

 

1998: 56%

1999: 59%

2000: 56%

2001: 61%

2002: 67%

2003: 63%

2004: 56%

2005: 53%

 

At the GM meetings in Indian Wells, Calif., and again this week at the owners meetings in Milwaukee, MLB chief labor counsel Frank Coonelly presented his warning about this winter's free-agent class. He warned:

 

• The number of 15-game winners in their platform year was six in 2003, seven in 2004 and zero in 2005.

 

• The combined winning percentage of free-agent starters was .532 in 2003, .580 in 2004 and .467 in 2005.

 

• The number of 30-plus home run hitters was six in 2003, 10 in 2004, one (Paul Konerko) in 2005.

 

• The number of players with an OPS greater than .800 was 12 in 2003, 11 in 2004 and three in 2005 (Konerko, Johnny Damon, Brian Giles).

 

That well documented, many teams have money to burn and audiences they want to entice by spending that dough. Bless you, Chan Ho Park.

 

Here are some of the facts from the Commissioner's Office confidential memo to clubs:

 

• Two-thirds of the clubs were profitable in 2005. Here is the breakdown: 2000 (14), 2001 (7), 2002 (2), 2003 (8), 2004 (15), 2005 (22). And that's with the accountants breaking down the books.

 

• Teams are at the break-even point when 54 percent of their revenues go into payroll. The aggregate profit of clubs below 54 percent in 2005 was $265 million, the aggregate loss of the seven clubs whose payroll was more than 54 percent of revenues was $118 million.

 

• Industry payrolls have risen from zero percent in 2003 and 2004 to six percent in 2005.

 

• Luxury taxes have contributed more than $80 million the last three years. The Yankees have paid $71.3 million, Red Sox $7.97 million, Angels $938,309.

 

Owners cannot help themselves. Free agents will beget unimaginable arbitration numbers (hello, Mark Teixeira), the percentage of revenue going toward payroll will rise from 53 percent, there will be a lot of bad contracts moved, and the percentage will come back down again. The natural laws of economics rule, not artificial structures.

[Balta1701]

With re. Steinbrenner...you have to give the guy credit. He spends to give his team it's best chance of winning. Obviously the results haven't been so great over the past few years, but, as an owner, I can't see how you could find anyone better.

 

He wants to win, and backs up his desire with $$$!

On the other hand...while Big Stein is willing to spend money...he's also willing to spend money on wildly insane deals, and he's also willing to go around his own management. The best example in recent years would be the fact that the Yankees Execs wanted to make a hard run at Vlad Guerrero, but big stein had his heart set on Sheffield. They grabbed Sheff. While in the short term that deal may have been a wash...Sheff is still a lot older, and will be gone from NY fairly soon.

 

There's also the issue that maybe his willingness to spend money actually can wind up hurting the team - it gives them room to just go and grab anyone no matter their cost, such as Randy Johnson or Kevin Brown - guys with big deals who are on the back sides of their careers. They end up depleting their minor leagues to do it, and then all of a sudden, their team is old, creaky, breaking down, and limps into the playoffs every year.

 

Money in baseball can be a blessing and a curse.

[LDF]

Seriously, and maybe it's my age, I can't get excited over a player's contract. I just can't sit here and think wow, we got Thome for $7.2 mil now we can get Inspector Clouseau at $3.6 over 5 with incentives, with a player option at $4.8 and a team option in 2009 for $5.6 unless he averages 120 starts, then he gets $5.8 mil and with the money we save, we can order out for pizza.

 

I'm more, where will he play, where in the batting order, what's he bring that we don't have and what hole did we just create. I don't know where the Sox budget should fall for player salaries, I don't know if they have a ton of fat in the front office that could be trimmed and an extra $3 mil moved to player salaries. I do know that worrying about the team overpaying for someone detracts from my enjoyment. OMG We overpaid $3 million here, the franchise is ruined, we will never reach the playoffs again.

 

But with so many great Sox fans and knowledgeable baseball people here, I wanted to understand the fascination and the excitement of signing a guy to a "good contract". Is it the same as a win on the field?

i am going to play devil advocate here, ok and please do not take offense.

 

lets say it paulie and timo

 

what is paulie worth and lets say we pay paulie, and for argument sake 16 mil. is this too much to pay.

 

timo ok maybe he is not the best example so lets say juan and if he was a fa. would paying him let say 8 mil be too much?

 

by your statement, we are overpaying b/c he play for us, is a vital part of our org and we only overpaid by a few mil.

[Texsox]

i am going to play devil advocate here, ok and please do not take offense.

 

lets say it paulie and timo

 

what is paulie worth and lets say we pay paulie, and for argument sake 16 mil. is this too much to pay.

 

timo ok maybe he is not the best example so lets say juan and if he was a fa. would paying him let say 8 mil be too much?

 

by your statement, we are overpaying b/c he play for us, is a vital part of our org and we only overpaid by a few mil.

 

Let me give you a real answer, we got Thome. It was days until I noticed what he was going to cost the Sox. I wasn't interested in the least. I was interested in where he would hit, where he would field, and the fact he is a solid citizen in the club house. I don't care if he's making $5 mil or $10 mil. If the Astros made more money this season than the Red Sox would it or should it make a difference to any of the fans? When they start publishing the box scores in the financial section, I'll start caring. Until then, I'm not that interested, but now I can see why some fans are so fascinated by it all. Thank you for the education.

 

Counting other people's money just doesn't do anything for me.

[LDF]

Let me give you a real answer, we got Thome. It was days until I noticed what he was going to cost the Sox. I wasn't interested in the least. I was interested in where he would hit, where he would field, and the fact he is a solid citizen in the club house. I don't care if he's making $5 mil or $10 mil. If the Astros made more money this season than the Red Sox would it or should it make a difference to any of the fans? When they start publishing the box scores in the financial section, I'll start caring. Until then, I'm not that interested, but now I can see why some fans are so fascinated by it all. Thank you for the education.

 

Counting other people's money just doesn't do anything for me.

fair enuf, i now know where you stand on this topic.

 

i was not counting other peoples money but what is fair market value is versus finding other options.

[Rowand44]

Let me give you a real answer, we got Thome. It was days until I noticed what he was going to cost the Sox. I wasn't interested in the least. I was interested in where he would hit, where he would field, and the fact he is a solid citizen in the club house. I don't care if he's making $5 mil or $10 mil. If the Astros made more money this season than the Red Sox would it or should it make a difference to any of the fans? When they start publishing the box scores in the financial section, I'll start caring. Until then, I'm not that interested, but now I can see why some fans are so fascinated by it all. Thank you for the education.

 

Counting other people's money just doesn't do anything for me.

You're not understanding the point at all.

[southsider2k5]

Let me give you a real answer, we got Thome. It was days until I noticed what he was going to cost the Sox. I wasn't interested in the least. I was interested in where he would hit, where he would field, and the fact he is a solid citizen in the club house. I don't care if he's making $5 mil or $10 mil. If the Astros made more money this season than the Red Sox would it or should it make a difference to any of the fans? When they start publishing the box scores in the financial section, I'll start caring. Until then, I'm not that interested, but now I can see why some fans are so fascinated by it all. Thank you for the education.

 

Counting other people's money just doesn't do anything for me.

 

Counting OPM makes a big difference to me when it is a direct relation to who my favorite team will but on the field, to think otherwise would be putting blinders on. Its kinda like saying that it doesn't matter that I have a huge house or not, when you aren't able to afford the property taxes on it, and are going to lose it anyways.

 

If you don't have one eye on the budget, you aren't getting the full picture of what a teams realistic expectations are on almost any personel matter.