Political News: 11/27-12/3

[Balta1701]

Soxtalk.com will be adding a new weekly thread to SL&P to try and contain all political talk to one thread. We feel this will help keep all the political stuff in one thread as opposed to it being continually rehashed in multiple threads.

 

We will be merging all political news stories and posts from the week into this thread and will be creating a new thread every week. Only in the instance of major political news, will a unique thread be allowed on a certain issue (for example if a new member of the Supreme Court is elected or when we have election day or if we declare war on a country).

 

Hopefully this will help clean up all the political discussion and debate from other threads. Many people aren't interested in the politics of it all and to appease the majority we will be trying this move out. We also know there are some people that love discussing politics and they will be able to discuss all the politics they want in this thread.

 

 

Well...eventually you see things so totally expected and yet simultaneously so damn sadistic that even when video surfaces, you just really hope it's not true.

A "trophy" video appearing to show security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians has sparked two investigations after it was posted on the internet, the Sunday Telegraph can reveal.

 

The video has sparked concern that private security companies, which are not subject to any form of regulation either in Britain or in Iraq, could be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent Iraqis.

 

The video, which first appeared on a website that has been linked unofficially to Aegis Defence Services, contained four separate clips, in which security guards open fire with automatic rifles at civilian cars. All of the shooting incidents apparently took place on "route Irish", a road that links the airport to Baghdad.

 

The road has acquired the dubious distinction of being the most dangerous in the world because of the number of suicide attacks and ambushes carried out by insurgents against coalition troops. In one four-month period earlier this year it was the scene of 150 attacks.

 

In one of the videoed attacks, a Mercedes is fired on at a distance of several hundred yards before it crashes in to a civilian taxi. In the last clip, a white civilian car is raked with machine gun fire as it approaches an unidentified security company vehicle. Bullets can be seen hitting the vehicle before it comes to a slow stop.

 

There are no clues as to the shooter but either a Scottish or Irish accent can be heard in at least one of the clips above Elvis Presley's Mystery Train, the music which accompanies the video.

Yes....that's right...they have Elvis as a theme song.

[Texsox]

Security companies awarded contracts by the US administration in Iraq adopt the same rules for opening fire as the American military. US military vehicles carry a sign warning drivers to keep their distance from the vehicle. The warning which appears in both Arabic and English reads "Danger. Keep back. Authorised to use lethal force." A similar warning is also displayed on the rear of vehicles belonging to Aegis.

 

Capt Adnan Tawfiq of the Iraqi Interior Ministry which deals with compensation issues, has told the Sunday Telegraph that he has received numerous claims from families who allege that their relatives have been shot by private security contractors travelling in road convoys.

 

He said: "When the security companies kill people they just drive away and nothing is done. Sometimes we ring the companies concerned and they deny everything. The families don't get any money or compensation. I would say we have had about 50-60 incidents of this kind."

 

I can't understand why the Iraqi people are so upset. They are living in a war zone. We are doing our best to stop the violence. This has to be better than living under their prior regime.

[southsider2k5]

I knew something like this was going to happen sooner or later. With all of the kidnapping, torture, and murder of the contractors, it was only a matter of time.

[KipWellsFan]

I'm giving the blogosphere some consipracy fodder

 

 

Were Coalition Forces on the Scene in Supposed Aegis Video?

http://thedanreport.blogspot.com/2005/11/w...n-scene-in.html

 

There has to be an audio expert out there that can filter out that Elvis song so we can hear what's going on.

[Balta1701]

I knew something like this was going to happen sooner or later.  With all of the kidnapping, torture, and murder of the contractors, it was only a matter of time.

Chicken and the egg problem. Which came first, the murder of the contractors by the Iraqis, or the torture and murder of the Iraqis by the contractors? There have been reports of torture and murder by those "above the law" private security forces and contractors in Iraq almost since the beginning...we know, for example, that they were heavily involved in the Abu Ghraib mess...and there were reports of quite a few actions against the people in Fallujah by the private contractors before the infamous 4 bodies were strung up from the bridge? None of these of course have been confirmed by reliable sources, but that's in large part because the military doesn't report on or monitor the actions of most of those contractors - we don't even know how many of them are killed, despite the fact that by numbers, they make up something like 20% of hte U.S. forces in Iraq.

[kapkomet]

Good God. It's our fault. AmeriKKKa's made everything worse then Saddam.

[Balta1701]

Good God.  It's our fault.  AmeriKKKa's made everything worse then Saddam.

Yes, because there's absolutely no difference between America doing things that America shouldn't do and America making things worse than Saddam. By your standard, America could torture 100,000 prisoners to death, and as long as Saddam had tortured 120,000 to death, you'd have a clean conscience, because fewer people were being tortured to death.

[kapkomet]

Yes, because there's absolutely no difference between America doing things that America shouldn't do and America making things worse than Saddam.  By your standard, America could torture 100,000 prisoners to death, and as long as Saddam had tortured 120,000 to death, you'd have a clean conscience, because fewer people were being tortured to death.

And where, exactly, did I "list" my standard?

 

ASS*U*ME

 

I don't recall ever putting down my standard... but that search function is a neat little thing.

Edited November 28, 2005 by kapkomet

[Balta1701]

And where, exactly, did I "list" my standard?

 

ASS*U*ME

 

I don't recall ever putting down my standard... but that search function is a neat little thing.

Ok, then allow me to clarify...

 

We have no idea the extent to which this sort of behavior has taken place. We have 1 video which is documented evidence of it, and there are widespread other reports. Your response is to say, to paraphrase "It's still better than Saddam" without any real summary of what scale the problem actually has. Therefore, given your lack of any statement to prove that this is not a wide-scale problem, it is safe to assume that you would judge any action which is not as bad as something done by Saddam to be justifiable, given that there is no evidence here that it is not a wide spread phenomenon.

 

We've been allowing these contractors to run rampant through Iraq, especially the "Private security forces", without ever really paying attention to them or investigating what they might be doing with that authority. They've been quite literally above the law. I want their actions to be monitored and curtailed, and this video is just hte latest reason why.

 

However, if the knee-jerk reaction from the other side is "Oh you just think we're worse than Saddam", you've basically just attempted to justify any and every action they've taken without knowing what actions they've actually taken aside from this limited evidence of clearly depraved behavior. This reasoning would naturally lead to avoiding any additional monitoring, regulation, and prosecution of those security forces, and would allow them to continue whatever sadistic actions they've chosen to undertake, no matter how illegal.

[kapkomet]

No, my response is to your response(s) to almost everything posted on this forum that we're a bunch of sadistic, egotisical bastards that rushed into war without a premise, reason, justification, moral reason, or any other "postive" thing that we can try to go in there with. Last time I checked, there have been how many attacks on our interests and how many people innocent dead because of these idiots? Oh wait, we're a bunch of civillian killers, too. "Tens of thousands"... link please... :rolly

 

I know it's "unAmerican" to you that we "conservatives" stick our head in the sand, and be blindly led down your point of view, aka, self-destruction. The difference is that I choose to think that there's ALWAYS more then is being told, and that there's probably more then meets the eye in circumstances like these. I don't choose to sit and dig up 7,246,237,457,234 and 3/4's links and piles of articles supporting my stance of why I hate George W. Bush's policies and why they suck and how he's an evil, evil schmuck who not only ......."LIED"....... but has also bastardized what it is to be a "war" president.

 

I don't give a rat's ass about just a very few assholes who go over there and break laws. If they did this, fry the bastards. In fact, fry them, put ketchup on them, and fry 'em again. But boy, isn't it amazing how this becomes a rally cry for everything we're doing wrong over there. We have to keep finding s*** over and over and over and over to justify why it is we are SOOOOOOOOOOO WRONNNNNNNG. It gets very old.

 

And so it goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on..........

Edited November 28, 2005 by kapkomet

[FlaSoxxJim]

No, my response is to your response(s) to almost everything posted on this forum that we're a bunch of sadistic, egotisical bastards that rushed into war without a premise, reason, justification, moral reason, or any other "postive" thing that we can try to go in there with.  Last time I checked, there have been how many attacks on our interests and how many people innocent dead because of these idiots?  Oh wait, we're a bunch of civillian killers, too.  "Tens of thousands"... link please... :rolly

 

I know it's "unAmerican" to you that we "conservatives" stick our head in the sand, and be blindly led down your point of view, aka, self-destruction.  The difference is that I choose to think that there's ALWAYS more then is being told, and that there's probably more then meets the eye in circumstances like these.  I don't choose to sit and dig up 7,246,237,457,234 and 3/4's links and piles of articles supporting my stance of why I hate George W. Bush's policies and why they suck and how he's an evil, evil schmuck who not only ......."LIED"....... but has also bastardized what it is to be a "war" president. 

 

I don't give a rat's ass about just a very few assholes who go over there and break laws.  If they did this, fry the bastards.  In fact, fry them, put ketchup on them, and fry 'em again.  But boy, isn't it amazing how this becomes a rally cry for everything we're doing wrong over there.  We have to keep finding s*** over and over and over and over to justify why it is we are SOOOOOOOOOOO WRONNNNNNNG.  It gets very old.

 

And so it goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on..........

 

"Tens of thousands is a substantiated and almost certainly a conservative estimate, yet sadly still a piddling number deserving of the old :rolly

 

:rolly :rolly

 

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is a well-sourced tally site that bases its estimates on the numbers of dead reported in at least two verifiable news sources, and even goes so far as to post an absolute minimum estimate along with the higher body counts reported in the press.

 

Currently, they estimate the number of civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq

at between 27,115 and 30,559.

 

As to the need to "keep finding s*** over and over and over and over to justify why it is we are SOOOOOOOOOOO WRONNNNNNNG," yes that seems to be precisely what it is taking to get a sleepwalking American public to pay some attention.

 

Last week on this forum was a perfectly good example, Kap. When the thread got posted about how the White House knew full well that there was no evidence for an Al Quaida/Saddam connection, you greeted that with a similar shrug, noting that it was old news and you'd basically known it for years. But withi the context of the current debate over whether intel was cherry-picked, stretched and manufactured versus simply being bad, News of what was in that PDB is entirely relevant. And in fact, this weeked I looked at the wording of the Congressional Joint Resolution to use force. It specifically has these words in it:

 

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq. . .

 

Not to mention the discredited justifications of "continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations."

 

All of these and more are listed as the reasons why Congress gave war authorization. And they believed these to be the facts. The White House, on the other hand, knew by this tim that this was an unbelievably overstated of the facts at best, if not an outright sack of lies.

 

Yet when these pesky points of factual history are brought into the light by the anti-war contingent, your feathers get ruffled because "it gets very old."

 

You have my sincere apologies for being part of the problem. :rolly

[FlaSoxxJim]

More "s*** we're finding over there" that Kap and others may or may nort care about.

 

From the PBS Frontline story linked above: Spc. Tony Lagouranis (Ret.) was a U.S. Army interrogator from 2001 to 2005, and served a tour of duty in Iraq from January 2004 to January 2005. He was first stationed at Abu Ghraib; in the spring he joined a special intelligence gathering task force that moved among detention facilities around the country. Here, he talks about how he found a "culture of abuse" permeating interrogations throughout Iraq.

 

Highlights:

Lagouranis admits:

- frustrated US soldiers torture Iraqi families at length in their homes - including flesh burning, bone breaking, and ax attacks - with impunity.

 

- no matter how obvious their innocence, detainees are always treated as guilty and sent to Abu Ghraib.

 

- officers filed unfounded reports to bolster the claim that Fallujah dead were foreigners.

[More and more s*** keeps coming out about this one.  Do you think exposing the true accounts of what happened is wrong?]

 

- actually the Fallujah corpses included numerous women and children.

 

- Lagouranis's multiple official abuse reports, ignored by CID and commanders for over a year, were suddenly re-filed after he appeared on Frontline.

 

- torture has produced no useful intelligence, and efforts to legalize it are "the worst thing we could do"

 

You are right, Kap. This is the kind of stuff that has gotten "very old" and we'd all rather not read about it happening. Of course, some people go even farther and actually believing it should not be happening instead of merely pretending it is not. And piling on awful story after awful story about abuse after abuse after abuse is, again, the apparent last recourse of the handful of citizens who think we are going down a very dark path and the consequences for the country are going to be tremendous.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I would have chosen "Radiation Ruling the Nation" by Massive Attack as my theme music.

[Mercy!]

But I know that "We Do Not Torture" because my President tells me so.

[EvilMonkey]

Wow, no typos in the post title this time!

 

http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110007605

 

Power to the People

Washington policy makers stand in the way of sensible energy policies.

 

Monday, November 28, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

 

After Hurricane Katrina temporarily knocked out 30% of America's oil refinery capacity and caused gasoline prices to spike, it became dramatically obvious that the nation needed to build more refineries away from the vulnerable Gulf Coast. But when a bill to streamline the permitting process and provide incentives to build refineries on closed military bases was headed for the Senate floor, Sen. Lincoln Chafee (R., R.I.) joined with every Democrat on the Senate Environment Committee and blocked the bill.

 

Mr. Chafee says he opposed the bill only because it lacked provisions to develop alternative fuels and raise fuel-economy standards, although he offered no amendments to that effect. But even if conservation takes center stage in the future, existing energy sources must be expanded now before the economy's health is jeopardized. A just published report by the New England Energy Alliance warns that "energy shortages could be acute soon--by 2010 at the latest" if policy makers in the region don't act aggressively. Unfortunately, Mr. Chafee and other senators appear more concerned about fending off the aggressive criticism of the green lobby. Mr. Chafee's spokesman noted there is strong local opposition in Rhode Island to using two shuttered military bases to add refinery capacity.

 

Sen. Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma, chairman of the Environment Committee, says he personally urged Mr. Chafee to back his bill, noting that the nation hasn't built a new refinery since 1976. "He sweats a lot," Mr. Inhofe told Human Events, referring to his fellow Republican's re-election battle next year. "He said, 'I just can't do that. I have to win that election. Right now I have a perfect record with the environmentalists.' "

 

Mr. Inhofe then approached some committee Democrats who he knew were under pressure from home-state businesses to vote for the bill. They rebuffed him too. Noting that a House-passed bill to streamline refinery permitting also failed to get even one Democratic vote, Mr. Inhofe concludes the nation's refinery policy is now being held hostage to partisan politics. "In the next election, high gas prices will be one of the Democrats' big campaign issues."

 

 

 

 

 

But on other energy issues it's Republicans standing in the way of progress. This month, House leaders had to bow to the demands of some two dozen GOP moderates and strip a budget bill of provisions to allow exploration for oil on Alaska's North Slope and permit states like Virginia that wanted to opt out of moratoriums on oil and natural gas exploration off their coasts to do so. Sen. Judd Gregg, a New Hampshire Republican, has been touting a "windfall profits" tax, even though the net profit margin of oil and gas companies on the Standard & Poor's 500 is 9%, barely above the S&P average of 8%.

Some members of Congress still believe their demagoguery somehow restrains prices. Sen. Dick Durbin (D., Ill.) told CNBC's Larry Kudlow that "the energy companies push [prices] to the ultimate limit until Congress is raging mad on both sides of the aisle and then retreat with their prices."

 

In reality, high energy prices are often the direct consequence of misguided government policy. After House leaders were forced to remove natural gas drilling provisions from the budget, Jack Gerard of the American Chemistry Council said he was "flabbergasted that some in Congress continue to live in a fantasy world, in which the government encourages use of clean-burning natural gas while cutting off supply, and then they wonder why prices go through the roof." Natural gas prices recently spiked at $14 per million BTUs, the highest in the world and the equivalent of $7 a gallon gasoline.

 

Not only will such price spikes increase the cost of heating homes this winter, but they are already costing jobs. Andrew Leveris, CEO of Dow Chemical, testified before Congress this month that high energy prices were a major reason that Dow has closed 23 of its plants in North America, shedding 7,000 of its 25,000 U.S. jobs. Out of 120 chemical plants currently under construction around the world, only one is being built in the U.S. More than 50 are going up in China, where natural gas costs half of what it does in the U.S.

 

Given the parochial interests that are retarding a sensible energy policy, national leadership is necessary to avoid continued gridlock. President Bush has been tarred as a tool of oil companies ever since his days working in a Texas oil patch, but the American people also intuitively feel that something is out of whack with energy. They are willing to listen to straight, direct talk.

 

 

 

 

 

Example: Polls show that the public is now much more willing to consider an expanded role for nuclear power, an environmentally clean way of generating electricity that could also someday help to make hydrogen cars or other alternative means of powering cars economically viable. New plant designs have laid to rest many fears about the safety of nuclear power plants and Mr. Bush now appears to ready to announce a major initiative to promote nuclear energy and also help discourage developing countries from making plutonium that can also be used to manufacture nuclear weapons.

In light of the Nimby opposition to storing spent nuclear fuel from utilities at the Yucca waste repository in Nevada, the Bush administration is likely to announce plans to have Washington step in--using a national security justification--and take the spent nuclear fuel off of the hands of utilities. It would then be stored at a federal facility in Nevada where a fuel recycling facility could be built. Fuel could also be recycled at the Savannah River national laboratory in South Carolina. Federal recycling facilities could handle fuel not just for U.S. utilities, but also for those nations who would be willing to give up plans to develop a complete nuclear fuel cycle.

 

That would help with the campaign against proliferation of nuclear weapons as well as improve the environment and spur economic growth in the developing world. "The U.S. could encourage the use of cleaner nuclear technology by offering to reprocess nuclear fuel on their behalf," says James Lucier, an energy analyst with Prudential Securities. "Why should fast-growing India burn cow dung if it can use nice American uranium?"

 

Expect a firestorm of controversy when the new Bush nuclear policy is announced. Environmental groups, which have long trumpeted national mandates for everything, will suddenly discover states' rights and rail against federal intrusion. But for every political action there is often an equal and opposite reaction. If members of Congress are afraid to challenge the orthodoxies of the green lobby, they can't be too surprised if President Bush exercises national leadership in a dramatic way to make sure the lights stay on while Washington fiddles. Some of them may privately even be thankful someone is willing to break a small part of the energy gridlock.

[kapkomet]

It's nice to see that my point totally got missed. I guess I can't make the point because I'm clearly wrong in either how I said it or how it came across.

 

Nevermind.

 

I am just a sorry f***up who doesn't understand anything.

 

I obviously just don't understand that my country(EDIT)'s leadership(/EDIT) is f***ing me sideways, backwards, upside down, forwards and any other way that it can. I'm sorry I'm so f***ing ignorant and misguided.

 

No green, no :rolly.

Edited November 29, 2005 by kapkomet

[kapkomet]

Oh and one more point. I wasn't trying to diminish anyone innocent getting killed. Thought I'd clear THAT one up.

[KipWellsFan]

Back to the topic at hand. I've received some information from a forensic audio analyst about the video which is very revealing but I wouldn't say damning. And as corny as this is going to sound I can't really release any of this information at this point. But, John at crooksandliars.com with all his ressources will probably be beating me to this scoop so tomorrow lots of info on this will be released.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I just think you are taking your anger out on the wrong people. "They all do it" isn't cutting it anymore with all that is becoming known about the White House mechanations regarding the war.

 

Bombshell revelations have not touched the administration, and so it appears that only unleashing an avelanche of every bit of evidence that practically everything about the war stinks and/or is a lie is finding any chinks in the administration armor.

 

The war was a done deal way before it happened, was ill-conceived with practically no planning as to what would happen after major combat operations were finished. The threat Saddam posed to America were intentionally mischaracterized. Coalition military/paramilitary/CIA have engaged in systematic torture. There is no oversight or accountability with regard to reconstruction funds. The administration blasts its critics as not supporting the troops, but sends them over untrained, lacking in body armor or armor for vehicles, uses stoploss and ready reserve to extends tours indefinately and call up veteran reservists who have more than done their bit – all while working to gut VA benefits and the like back home.

 

Cheney, Rummy, and Maclellan openly talk about the negative MSM reports and protester efforts emboldening the enemy and it is so preposterous but people buy into it. Like the shake and bake at Fallujah didn't embolden the enemy. Like an Iraqi family needs to turn on CNN to become outraged at teh occupation, because apparently having their family members blown to bits somehow didn't drive it home for them. I bet New Yorkers didn't need to tune into the VVC to be outraged and emboldened on 9-11. But for the average angry Iraqi, my railing against the war apparently does more to embolden them than all the civillian collateral damage they see us inflicting every day does.

 

I am as appalled as you are that America has put itself into a position to be so mercilessly bashed and trashed. But the blame needs to be placed at the feet of the administration.

[KipWellsFan]

I'm an insider!

http://thedanreport.blogspot.com/2005/11/d...e-released.html

[FlaSoxxJim]

I'm an insider!

http://thedanreport.blogspot.com/2005/11/d...e-released.html

That means your file at the FBI is bigger than the rest of ours. .

[KipWellsFan]

That means your file at the FBI is bigger than the rest of ours. . 

 

All in a days work stickin' it to the man!

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

YIPPIE SKIPPY!!!

 

 

Yet another cry fest about what we're supposedly doing wrong in Iraq.

 

 

You gotta love how some people just simply dont care that all the violence and mayhem is being perpetrated by Al Quada, no, we gotta hear left and right around here how some detainees got beat up or how some contractors allegedly took a shot at some civillians because everyone knows that thats the REAL problem over there.

 

 

Theres a big reason why troops come home and are stunned and hurt at all the negativity spewed out by the left and the leftist media over the Iraq war. I love how you people just put the blinders and tin foil hats on and just zero in on every negative thing you can possibly find yet universally ignore all the good that is being done over there.

[YASNY]

YIPPIE SKIPPY!!!

Yet another cry fest about what we're supposedly doing wrong in Iraq.

You gotta love how some people just simply dont care that all the violence and mayhem is being perpetrated by Al Quada, no, we gotta hear left and right around here how some detainees got beat up or how some contractors allegedly took a shot at some civillians because everyone knows that thats the REAL problem over there. 

Theres a big reason why troops come home and are stunned and hurt at all the negativity spewed out by the left and the leftist media over the Iraq war.  I love how you people just put the blinders and tin foil hats on and just zero in on every negative thing you can possibly find yet universally ignore all the good that is being done over there.

 

Get used to it Nuke. Some things are perpetual.

[Mercy!]

.... I don't choose to sit and dig up 7,246,237,457,234 and 3/4's links and piles of articles supporting my stance of why I hate George W. Bush's policies and why they suck and how he's an evil, evil schmuck who not only ......."LIED"....... but has also bastardized what it is to be a "war" president......

How about ANY link supporting your stance? Exactly what is your stance, anyway? All I got from your posts in this thread was sarcasm. Your usual response recently is to claim that the Republicans and Democrats are just the same and equally bad.

 

Well, I don’t buy that. But regardless, it’s not up to those who identify as liberal or progressive or Democratic to prove your point for you. Your (and others') constant repetition that something is so just because you say so doesn’t count as backing up any of your assertions.

 

Got a Democratic congressman who just got indicted for taking at least 2.4 mil in bribes? Post the story. Got a Democratic administration that just botched the response to our biggest natural disaster? Post the story. Do you have any examples that don’t date back to last century and include Clinton’s blow job? Or Teddy Kennedy? Some things are NOT balanced “on the one hand this, but on the other hand that.” If nothing else, the fact that one party holds both the White House and the Congress should make that clear.

 

I think there is massive evidence that this administration has been a disaster for us at home and abroad, and people have offered many examples in many threads. So yes, I’m feeling negative. You folks who feel differently, what’s stopping you from posting all those positive FACTS in rebuttal?