Why not Owens???

[RockRaines]

Link Jim? I would really like to hear that......

In assessing his plan to move Juan Uribe and Tadahito Iguchi in the order, Guillen hopes batting second will make Uribe a more disciplined hitter while allowing Iguchi to drive in more runs from either the sixth or seventh spot.

 

Moving Iguchi from the second spot "will give us a very good shot to see who he really is," Guillen said.

[Guest JimH]

Trading Owens for Pierre would be the dumbest move KW could make.  I thought Owens was projecting to be an All-Star, (the highest cieling of any position player the sox have right?) and you're suggesting trading him for a number "2" hitter who doesn't work the count, had a .326 OBP (OMG!) in 2005,  has had 2 good seasons out of 7 in the majors, makes 5 million a year, and plays crap defense?

 

No thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Say what?

 

Owens projecting to be an All Star? He's had one good season in the minors. He is intriguing, but this is overhyping the guy to say the least.

 

Pierre has had 2 good seasons out of 7? I think not, here's his career stats:

 

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/...playerID=334393

 

Plays crap defense? Really? Where are you getting this information?

[southsider2k5]

Or that neither has ever played a game in AAA.

I love hearing about Young, Owens, and Sweeney, I am excited for all 3, but I personally think a team coming off a World Series title shouldnt relay on Chris Young and Jerry Owens in 2006.

 

How about having a rookie closer?

[Guest JimH]

How about having a rookie closer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They didn't have much choice Mike but there's a difference between a closer vs. an everyday position player. They have options they can pursue for CF and I'd bet they're analyzing all of them.

[chitownsportsfan]

Ok, I've not nearly as familiar with Owens as I am with BA and Juan Pierre.

 

Here is a long winded yet thorough post about Juan I made earlier. I think it might convince you that he stinks.

 

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43560

[Guest JimH]

Ok, I've not nearly as familiar with Owens as I am with BA and Juan Pierre.

 

Here is a long winded yet thorough post about Juan I made earlier.  I think it might convince you that he stinks.

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43560

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for digging this up, but I've seen him play a lot and it doesn't convince me. I don't think it convinces Guillen or the Florida Marlins, who won a World Series with this guy in the lineup every day at a key position.

[SSH2005]

I think most people who say Pierre stinks are saying so because we already have Podsednik. If we didn't have Podsednik, everyone would probably want Pierre. Some people don't like the idea of having two light-hitting leadoff hitter types at the top of our lineup. And then there's also the defense factor. Pierre has a weak arm but that doesn't bother me much because Rowand's arm stunk last season as well. I'm more worried about his fielding ability.

[timotime]

Trading Owens for Pierre would be the dumbest move KW could make.  I thought Owens was projecting to be an All-Star, (the highest cieling of any position player the sox have right?) and you're suggesting trading him for a number "2" hitter who doesn't work the count, had a .326 OBP (OMG!) in 2005,  has had 2 good seasons out of 7 in the majors, makes 5 million a year, and plays crap defense?

 

No thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

yeah, no thanks. i agree with this completely.

[Rowand44]

Trading Owens for Pierre would be the dumbest move KW could make.  I thought Owens was projecting to be an All-Star, (the highest cieling of any position player the sox have right?) and you're suggesting trading him for a number "2" hitter who doesn't work the count, had a .326 OBP (OMG!) in 2005,  has had 2 good seasons out of 7 in the majors, makes 5 million a year, and plays crap defense?

 

First off, Pierre has had 4 really good seasons out of six so lets not make things up now. Second, Chris Young is the one your thinking of with the highest ceiling out of all the of prospects in our system.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 2, 2005 -> 02:51 AM)

I think Borchard deserves a roster spot more than Timo.  If they both hit .220 at least JoBo adds the threat of some power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem is Joe doesn't hit anywhere close to .220. That's 29 points above his career average.

Timo career average + 29 points = a respectable .292.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 2, 2005 -> 04:53 AM)

And the argument from a Timo backer.....

 

"But, but what about the clutch bloop singles!!!!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why back your case up with the facts? Let's just throw s*** like I'd take Leo Daigle over Timo!!!!

 

*waits for 406 to chime in with his pointless 77 OPS+ stat*

 

 

This is coming from someone who didn't want Timo on the team last season.

[southsider2k5]

They didn't have much choice Mike but there's a difference between a closer vs. an everyday position player.  They have options they can pursue for CF and I'd bet they're analyzing all of them.

 

I'd actually argue that it is harder on Jenks than it is on Anderson. Anderson has 8 other guys in the line up to hide in, and two other OFers to help him out. When Jenks is on the mound, odds are the game rests on every pitch he throws, pretty much everytime he is out there. I am just making the point that teams do what they need to do to fill their holes, and balance their spending. For a team like the Sox, that means they need a few cheap guys to balance out their big money contracts. There is nothing wrong with Brian Anderson or whoever getting a chance on a defending World Champion team, as they Sox have the entire rest of the line up as veterans, and an incredible pitching staff as well. it isn't like we are pulling a Florida Marlins and pulling the plug after winning a WS.

[Balta1701]

I'd actually argue that it is harder on Jenks than it is on Anderson.  Anderson has 8 other guys in the line up to hide in, and two other OFers to help him out.  When Jenks is on the mound, odds are the game rests on every pitch he throws, pretty much everytime he is out there.  I am just making the point that teams do what they need to do to fill their holes, and balance their spending.  For a team like the Sox, that means they need a few cheap guys to balance out their big money contracts.  There is nothing wrong with Brian Anderson or whoever getting a chance on a defending World Champion team, as they Sox have the entire rest of the line up as veterans, and an incredible pitching staff as well.  it isn't like we are pulling a Florida Marlins and pulling the plug after winning a WS.

[Heads22]

I think Borchard deserves a roster spot more than Timo.  If they both hit .220 at least JoBo adds the threat of some power.

 

 

Plus, he had, what, an inside-the-park homerun against Toronto a couple years back?I think it's fair to expect him to blaze, too.

[Heads22]

yeah, no thanks. i agree with this completely.

 

 

Owens is not projected to be an all-star. I don't know where you are getting this, but the great Scott Bikowski also won the SL batting crown once upon a time.

 

I'm not saying the two are at all alike, but I do think Owens needs AAA time.

[Heads22]

Also, in no way is that an indictment of Big Bik. I'm still pulling for ya, buddy, even if you are going to be a Biscuit. [/sheds tear]

[chitownsportsfan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4486

 

Please tell me which of Juan's 6 (yes I was wrong) seasons was good. I say 2001, 2003, 2004.

 

He played 3 of his career 6 seasons at Coors Field. I'm sure that couldn't have hurt his OPS.

 

His plate discline number are way below way what they were in 2001, which suggest that (gasp!) 2004 was mostly luck.

 

He stunk in 2005, we already have a light hitting speedster in LF, we don't need another.

 

His OPS in 2005 was .680!

[qwerty]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4486

 

Please tell me which of Juan's 6 (yes I was wrong) seasons was good. I say 2001, 2003, 2004. 

 

He played 3 of his career 6 seasons at Coors Field.  I'm sure that couldn't have hurt his OPS.

 

His plate discline number are way below way what they were in 2001, which suggest that (gasp!) 2004 was mostly luck.

 

He stunk in 2005, we already have a light hitting speedster in LF, we don't need another.

 

His OPS in 2005 was .680!

 

You do realize for are talking about a lead-off ( that is what he truly is) hitters ops and you are also saying 2004, which happens to be the same year he led the national league in hits, was luck. I also have no fishing clue what you are yalking about his plate discipline being down from what it was in 2001. He has been consistent his whole career when it comes to his plate discipline.

[beck72]

Trading Owens for Pierre would be the dumbest move KW could make.  I thought Owens was projecting to be an All-Star, (the highest cieling of any position player the sox have right?) and you're suggesting trading him for a number "2" hitter who doesn't work the count, had a .326 OBP (OMG!) in 2005,  has had 2 good seasons out of 7 in the majors, makes 5 million a year, and plays crap defense?

 

No thanks.

2 good yrs out of 7 and he's still a career .305 hitter along with a .355 obp?

 

Owens is 3 1/2 yrs younger than Pierre. Juan's not exactly an old man. More than likely, Owens will need time in AAA

 

I like what Owens brings to the table. Can he hit .300 in the bigs? CAn he steal 30 bases? Who knows. But I know Pierre can. And seeing how the sox need a guy who can hit #2 in 2006, IMO, Owens would be worth it

[beck72]

This I would be against, let me tell you why.

 

Owens looks like a blossoming leadoff hitter, the age thing doesn't mean much with this guy because he'd been away from baseball a few years.  Less baseball miles on his body.

 

Leadoff hitters are harder and harder to find and develop.  Owens is a perfect replacement for Podsednik at some point if Pods gets expensive or injured.

 

They want Owens to improve his walk rate, although as Keith noted he's got good strike zone judgement already and bat control as well.  The thing is he's best suited defensively for LF.  Chris Young is a potential high impact player who's best suited for CF.  Sweeney is a potential high average great arm who's best suited for RF who'll be ready right about the time Dye's contract expires. 

 

Interesting that on Guillen's conference call yesterday, he "guarantees" they will have a new #2 hitter.  Hmmmm ...

You do realize one of the sox young OFers--Sweeney, Owens, Anderson or Young--almost cetainly would have to be a part of a deal. The Marlins need someone to play OF next yr--which has been reported--maybe nbot start the yr but be able to be called up at least in Sept. IMO, the Sox don't trade one of those 4, they don't get Pierre

 

If Pierre can play LF--which Ozzie would know enough about Pierre and whether he can handle that spot--does that change your opinion about Owens?

 

I understand that Owens is a blossoming leadoff hitter. But Pierre is established and not that much older than Owens

[beck72]

Ok, I've not nearly as familiar with Owens as I am with BA and Juan Pierre.

 

Here is a long winded yet thorough post about Juan I made earlier.  I think it might convince you that he stinks.

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43560

No it doesn't.

[chitownsportsfan]

Players on the Sox that had a better OPS than Juan Pierre in 2005:

 

The entire starting lineup--yes, even such "heavyweights" as Scottie Pods, Juan Uribe, Arow, and AJ. Enough really can't be said about how bad Juan was last year at the plate.

 

Juan Pierre, Career Splits: .305 .355 .375 .730

 

Arow, Career Splits: .283 .337 .451 .788

 

Both players are the same age. Now, Arow is generally noted as a good but not great CF with an average arm. Juan is a average fielder with a below average arm, kinda like scottie pods, actually, alot like scottie pods.

 

Why would we trade anything for Pierre? Please tell me, we already have a Juan Pierre clone in Scottie Pods, we need a number 2 hitter with a little bit of Pop for crying out loud. It's hard for me to see Juan Pierre setting the table with a career OPS ops of .730, especially considering that he has played half his career in Coors Field.

 

Throw in the fact that NL pitching is weaker than AL pitching, and Juan is almost certainly not going to have anything close to a productive year in CF.

Edited December 3, 2005 by chitownsportsfan

[Rowand44]

Players on the Sox that had a better OPS than Juan Pierre in 2005:

 

The entire starting lineup--yes, even such "heavyweights" as Scottie Pods, Juan Uribe, Arow, and AJ.  Enough really can't be said about how bad Juan was last year at the plate.

 

Juan Pierre, Career Splits:  .305  .355  .375  .730

 

Arow, Career Splits:  .283  .337  .451  .788

 

Both players are the same age.  Now, Arow is generally noted as a good but not great CF with an average arm.  Juan is a average fielder with a below average arm, kinda like scottie pods, actually, alot like scottie pods.

 

Why would we trade anything for Pierre?  Please tell me, we already have a Juan Pierre clone in Scottie Pods, we need a number 2 hitter with a little bit of Pop for crying out loud.  It's hard for me to see Juan Pierre setting the table with a career OPS ops of .730, especially considering that he has played half his career in Coors Field.

 

Throw in the fact that NL pitching is weaker than AL pitching, and Juan is almost certainly not going to have anything close to a productive year in CF.

 

He is a freakin leadoff hitter. Why the crunk do you care about his slugging percentage?

[chitownsportsfan]

IS HE GOING TO HIT LEADOFF FOR THE SOX.

 

Sorry about shouting, but christ almighty, listen to yourselves, we need a #2 hitter--he will not hit leadoff if traded to the Sox. He will hit number 2, which would be a mistake.

 

I'm not sure why everyone is trumpeting his OPB, it was terrible last year--.326...wow, quite the leadoff man. Career you say: .355.

 

I concede that .355 is a decent enough number, but it sure as heck isn't noteworthy, not for a "leadoff" hitter. He has speed, but rarely gets on to use it.

 

I'm kinda tired of looking up all these stats on my dialup, so if anyone wants to pick up the anti-pierre cause that would be cool.

 

His 2006 salary is going to be above 5 million, FYI, which of course is about 4.75 million more than any of our in house options. Roughly, 1/17 of the whitesox total payrole would be going to trade for Juan, plus whatever talent we have to give up, and I have to think the marlins ain't taking El Duque or Marte, they want prospects.

[Rowand44]

IS HE GOING TO HIT LEADOFF FOR THE SOX.

 

Sorry about shouting, but christ almighty, listen to yourselves, we need a #2 hitter--he will not hit leadoff if traded to the Sox.  He will hit number 2, which would be a mistake.

 

I'm not sure why everyone is trumpeting his OPB, it was terrible last year--.326...wow, quite the leadoff man.  Career you say: .355.

 

I concede that .355 is a decent enough number, but it sure as heck isn't noteworthy, not for a "leadoff" hitter.  He has speed, but rarely gets on to use it.

 

I'm kinda tired of looking up all these stats on my dialup, so if anyone wants to pick up the anti-pierre cause that would be cool.

 

His 2006 salary is going to be above 5 million, FYI, which of course is about 4.75 million more than any of our in house options.  Roughly, 1/17 of the whitesox total payrole would be going to trade for Juan, plus whatever talent we have to give up, and I have to think the marlins ain't taking El Duque or Marte, they want prospects.

His job as a two hitter would still be to get on for Thome and Pauly behind him. He can move Scott over cause he's a great bunter, he'd be a great guy to hit and run with cause he doesnt swing and miss a lot, and he gets on base at a very good clip to where as Thome and Paul would always have someone to drive in with Scott and Pierre in front of them. Juan would be a great fit as a number 2 hitter here. Sorry, but his slugging just doesnt meant that much.