Rafael Furcal

[DBAHO]

Jim Hendry, the ball's in your court;

 

The Dodgers have offered Rafael Furcal a three-year contract worth close to $40 million, a source with knowledge of the negotiations told the Los Angeles Times.

And Paul DePodesta's contracts were crazy? Furcal has never even had an 800 OPS, and his best OBP the last five years is .352. He's had one year with more than 103 runs scored. If this is for real, Furcal could take it and still get another big contract at age 31. It's currently believed the Cubs are at $50 million for five years and the Braves have a four-year, $36 million offer on the table. Furcal's agent, Paul Kinzer, said Friday that his client won't make a decision "for a couple of more days." Dec. 3 - 12:13 am et

[White Sox Josh]

Jim Hendry, the ball's in your court; 

maybe it's just me but i say he goes back to the Braves and shows loyalty to the Braves.

[Chisoxfn]

Cripes...I'd think he'd still look at a longer deal, but this is a hell of an offer by the Dodgers and a ridiculous one at that.

 

I like Furcal but thats about 4-5 mill a year too much for him.

[Rowand44]

maybe it's just me but i say he goes back to the Braves and shows loyalty to the Braves.

I really doubt it. I think Furcal is waiting for the biggest deal possible. While this deal is obviously way to much as far as money per year goes, I think Furcal holds out for a 4-5 year deal.

[Chisoxfn]

According to some reports out here, the Dodgers initially had offered Furcal a 4 year deal at a little less annually but had talked with his agent and felt that a 3 yr deal with more money annually would be enough to get him.

 

The Agent and Furcal both liked the idea of hitting FA again when he's 31. That said a 5 year deal at 12 mill a year would probably land him. I'll take Paulie myself.

 

One other interesting tidbit is that in addition to Furcal the Dodgers are in talks with Seattle to acquire Adrian Beltre. Its preliminary at this stage but contrary to some reports Beltre is believed to be on the market. The Dodgers would want the Mariners to pick up some of his contract. Now this would be a move I'd fully endorse as a Dodger fan. Hell, I'd endorse picking him up as a Sox fan (but that ain't going to happen and the money could be spent in better areas).

[Balta1701]

One other interesting tidbit is that in addition to Furcal the Dodgers are in talks with Seattle to acquire Adrian Beltre.  Its preliminary at this stage but contrary to some reports Beltre is believed to be on the market.  The Dodgers would want the Mariners to pick up some of his contract.  Now this would be a move I'd fully endorse as a Dodger fan.  Hell, I'd endorse picking him up as a Sox fan (but that ain't going to happen and the money could be spent in better areas).

I guess whether or not that turns out to be a good deal would depend a lot on which Beltre shows up.

 

You find the Beltre from 2004 and its an instantly great deal no matter who they give up.

 

That leaves the question though...where is the Beltre from 2004? Did he only get himself in shape to sign a contract? Did he do something different or stupid last year? Did the change of scenery hurt that much? Did he take some special pills to help him in 2004? Beats the hell out of me, but that was a huge dropoff in performance by him this year.

[Chisoxfn]

I guess whether or not that turns out to be a good deal would depend a lot on which Beltre shows up.

 

You find the Beltre from 2004 and its an instantly great deal no matter who they give up.

 

That leaves the question though...where is the Beltre from 2004?  Did he only get himself in shape to sign a contract?  Did he do something different or stupid last year?  Did the change of scenery hurt that much?  Did he take some special pills to help him in 2004?  Beats the hell out of me, but that was a huge dropoff in performance by him this year.

I am of the believe that he struggled the 1st half of the season due to being in a new league. He's not exactly the type of hitter that will adjust himself quickly to an unfamiliar environment/league. In the 2nd half he put up pretty good numbers (well solid numbers) and showed off more of his game. I think he was amongst the league leaders in RBI's in the 2nd half of the season. There is no doubting that park factor was another reason (not much of one though cause the Beltre of 05 wasn't the Beltre of 04).

 

The Dodgers were idiots not to sign him in the 1st place. They were so close financially and didn't need to offer but 5 mill more and it would have been done. Not to mention right after they miss out on Beltre they go out and offer a stupider contract to JD Drew. Beltre has had his injury problems but he plays through him and plays gold glove defense at 3rd (I think he's about as good of a 3rd baseman in all of baseball).

 

It would be a big move to get him back. I don't know if Beltre will ever replicate those 04 numbers (ones I have long dubbed as the greatest single season ever for a 3rd baseman...although I think you could look at Arod as well) but I think he will be a consistent .280, 30-50, 100 RBI guy while putting up gold glove defense. He is more fragile than the typical superstar and will respond well coming back home.

 

Regardless, I think he puts up good numbers (if healthy) wherever he is next year.

 

As fars as I'm concerned neither the Dodgers or Angels have been doing things right the past two years. The Angels made some really foolish moves (got away with them because they had a strong nucleus) and the Dodgers made some (McCourt's fault) and than they were hammered with injuries.

 

Hell, aside from the JD Drew fiasco, I could say that the Dodgers moves were smarter than the Angels the past year and a half or two, the only problem was the Dodgers were absolutely ravaged with injuries in 05.

[Balta1701]

Hell, aside from the JD Drew fiasco, I could say that the Dodgers moves were smarter than the Angels the past year and a half or two, the only problem was the Dodgers were absolutely ravaged with injuries in 05.

Yes, the Dodgers were ravaged with injuries, but I don't know how you could have expected any less out of the Dodgers with the people they grabbed.

 

Look at their pickups last offseason...JD Drew, Jose Valentin, Jeff Kent, Choi, etc. You don't sign Drew without expecting him to get hurt. You don't sign guys like Valentin and Kent at their ages without taking a big chance on them getting hurt. They basically asked for Gagne to get hurt when they traded away his setup guy in the bullpen last year and were forced to ride his arm on the way to the division.

[Chisoxfn]

Yes, the Dodgers were ravaged with injuries, but I don't know how you could have expected any less out of the Dodgers with the people they grabbed.

 

Look at their pickups last offseason...JD Drew, Jose Valentin, Jeff Kent, Choi, etc.  You don't sign Drew without expecting him to get hurt.  You don't sign guys like Valentin and Kent at their ages without taking a big chance on them getting hurt.  They basically asked for Gagne to get hurt when they traded away his setup guy in the bullpen last year and were forced to ride his arm on the way to the division.

No, I realize that. They were idiots to put themselves in the position they did. I've long said you can't say oh Jd Drew was hurt. He's always hurt. Now Valentin, he's never been what I'd call injury prone and Jeff Kent was pretty much healthy, sans a couple minor injuries, IIRC.

 

My point is the mistake was made when they signed Drew over Beltre (that was McCourt, not Depodesta). Depodesta wanted Beltre but when he missed out they worked out a deal for the other Boras rep in Drew. If they have Beltre at 3rd, they don't need Valentin. They have Izzy at SS (who knew he'd get hurt) and Kent at 2B. They would still need a 1st baseman and an outfielder but those are much easier to find.

 

How was he supposed to know Jayson Werth (who looked like a really good up and comer the prior year) was going to get hurt and not be able to come back (they all expected him ready pretty early). Izzy had shown no problems with injuries, Valentin really hadn't (although they shouldn't have had him), Odalis Perez (ya that was a bad signing, cause he's prone to injuries) but Penny, Weaver, and company held up alright.

 

Point is, look at Pauls moves:

Jd Drew - awful, but I blame it on McCourt and knowing what I do about the situation (Beltre/Drew), I know it was McCourt's fault

Jayson Werth - damn good acquisition, they gave up nothing for him and he's a guy with 20-30 HR potential and he's already done that at the major league level)

Jeff Kent - look at the numbers, can't knock the signing

Milton Bradley - not a bad deal, Bradley got hurt, but the guy is a good hitter; Now you can knock his talent and I think if Colletti is smart he'll unload him for whatever he can get.

Brady Penny - most slammed deal in LA, but it was a good deal. Penny is/was the best part of that deal and he's still right here in LA. LoDuca will be gone and Mota bellied up in FLA. When you look at it Encarnacion was the best Fla got out of the deal. The Dodgers also got Steve Finley and Choi out of the deal.

Shawn Green - cleared up a bad contract and got themselves a pretty damn good Catching prospect (still a wait to be seen).

 

Point is, Depodesta wasn't near as bad as everyone made him out to be. I look at all those moves and I only see one being terrible, the rest weren't bad at all, in fact most were pretty good moves.

 

Now I look at the Angels:

Vladdy signing - great signing, I don't think it takes much talent and Stoneman wasn't very involved. It has long been talked about that Alfredo Griffin was the big part of that deal (I guess he coached or somehow knew Vladdy). Plus Vladdy didn't want to play in NY and hates the Dodger organization (although many in the org swear that they had him signed or thought they did).

 

Colon signing - at 1st it looked like a little too much money. He pitched great in his 2nd year but is on the mend now. Still considering the current market a good move.

 

Cabrerra - Money would have been spent better somewhere else. Cabrera is a good defensive SS (make that a great one) but he's a mediocre hitter and was asked to be the Angels 2 hole hitter (for at least part of the year). Eckstein (while I wasn't a big fan) was solid and if they were going to upgrade, Cabrerra wasn't an upgrade (overall).

 

Finley - Terrible signing. The money spent on Finely Cabrerra could have been bettter spent. They could have had Beltran (now I'm not saying that would have been a great move either, but Beltran/Eckstein >>> Finley/Cabrerra

 

Jose Guillen - I didn't like this move, but I understand why it was done.

 

Byrd signing - worked out pretty well, good low-key move

 

Not resigning Glaus - looks like a bad move (not one I will knock though, Glaus is overpaid).

 

Not adding bullpen help - Big mistake

 

Not finding a bat to replace Jose Guillen - Big mistake

 

Giving Anderson that fat long term deal - Mistake (not too much blame though because no one knew Anderson's back would flair up like it did).

 

Stoneman isn't great, he's not as horrid as I make him out to be, but he lacks guts and the willingness to put his rear end out there. Because of that I think he's too conservative of a GM. He's the type where his teams will win, but they won't win it all (I'm sorry, the World Champion Angels were Bavasi's team).

[Palehosefan]

I must be totally missing the boat with Furcal. Before this season, I saw a guy that played defense very similar to Jose Valentin, with fielding percentage included. I also see a guy that happened to have his best year defensively in a contract year. I also see a guy thats already 28 and should have been in his prime for the past 2-3 years, yet none of the season's would put him anything more than slightly above average at the SS position. I see a guy that in his 4 full years in the majors is averaging 12 homers and 56 rbi's with over 600 at-bats each year in a potent Braves lineup. I must be missing something big here if teams are offering him anything over 6-7 million a year.

[Rowand44]

I must be totally missing the boat with Furcal. Before this season, I saw a guy that played defense very similar to Jose Valentin, with fielding percentage included. I also see a guy that happened to have his best year defensively in a contract year. I also see a guy thats already 28 and should have been in his prime for the past 2-3 years, yet none of the season's would put him anything more than slightly above average at the SS position. I see a guy that in his 4 full years in the majors is averaging 12 homers and 56 rbi's with over 600 at-bats each year in a potent Braves lineup. I must be missing something big here if teams are offering him anything over 6-7 million a year.

Why are you looking at his power numbers? The guy is a good player but what the dodgers are offering for him is nuts, no doubt about that.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

I must be totally missing the boat with Furcal. Before this season, I saw a guy that played defense very similar to Jose Valentin, with fielding percentage included. I also see a guy that happened to have his best year defensively in a contract year. I also see a guy thats already 28 and should have been in his prime for the past 2-3 years, yet none of the season's would put him anything more than slightly above average at the SS position. I see a guy that in his 4 full years in the majors is averaging 12 homers and 56 rbi's with over 600 at-bats each year in a potent Braves lineup. I must be missing something big here if teams are offering him anything over 6-7 million a year.

 

 

If you missed the boat, I must be dry-docked with you. I think teams have Carlos Beltran fever, paying more for potential than what he has consistently done.

[Balta1701]

If you missed the boat, I must be dry-docked with you.  I think teams have Carlos Beltran fever, paying more for potential than what he has consistently done.

You know you're right...now that I look at it...Beltran's best season he put up numbers only barely better than what Konerko put up last season, yet he's getting $5 million a year more than PK. (OPS around 910 for Beltran in 2003-2005, .909 last year for PK)

[TheHawkaroo]

You know you're right...now that I look at it...Beltran's best season he put up numbers only barely better than what Konerko put up last season, yet he's getting $5 million a year more than PK.  (OPS around 910 for Beltran in 2003-2005, .909 last year for PK)

 

Beltran is a solid CF with speed who puts up the same numbers as a power-hitting 1B, that's why he's making 5 million more. You can't just compare OPS when you're talking about a CF and a 1B.

[SoxFan562004]

This tidbit was in the Tribune article I believe, but the belief that the Dodgers are going so high for him at 13 a year for 3 years is that teams can still insure contracts for up to 3 years and the Dodgers would rather have all that contract insured then offer a similar deal to the Cubs and have 20m uninsured. (i.e. the first 3 years at 10m leaving the last two on the teams books)

 

Now, this is me speculating, this may have something to do with his D.U.I situations, I know two parties can basically agree to anything in a contract as long as it's reasonable, but I wouldn't be suprised if the union basically told Furcal and his agent that they can't put in a clause above and beyond a standard morality clause that would terminate the contract upon another D.U.I.

 

With the standard morality clause there is enough ambugity that the union could drag it through an arbitration or court process.

 

It will be interesting to see what he takes, he would be leaving about 11m on the table by turning down the cubs offer, but he would be a FA sooner and barring any major slippage he would still be an in demand FA at 30 or 31 (depending on how old he is on opening day, i know he's 27 now.) The Dodgers contract IMO is a very good calculated risk because Omar Vizquel got a solid deal last offseason and he will be what, 7-9 years younger than Vizquel was next time he hits FA...

 

But in the Cubs favor an extra guaranteed 11 million dollars is an extra guaranteed 11 million

[Rowand44]

Edited December 4, 2005 by Rowand44

[Rowand44]

Btw, I expect the Cubs to get Pierre in the next 72 hours, and pay a little more than they need to because of this loss....

Ya know, normally I would completely agree with you. However this is the organization that had no problem starting last year with Corey Patterson as their leadoff man.

[Rowand44]

I think Hendry is going to be taking alot of flak for this, even if Furcal got WAY more than he should have.

 

You watch, Hendry might get overly aggressive here.

However, like you said, never doubt the Cubs....

You're probably right, the Cubs need some kind of good PR and they need a leadoff hitter more then anything. That organization just never surprises me though so who knows.

[BlackBetsy]

FYI - the article entitled "Furcal is key to Cubs' Big Plans" written by Dave Van Dyck is no longer on the Trib web site.

 

That organization moves fast to protect themselves from embarrassment.

[Rowand44]

FYI - the article entitled "Furcal is key to Cubs' Big Plans" written by Dave Van Dyck is no longer on the Trib web site.

 

That organization moves fast to protect themselves from embarrassment.

Haha, nice catch.

[SoxFan562004]

FYI - the article entitled "Furcal is key to Cubs' Big Plans" written by Dave Van Dyck is no longer on the Trib web site.

 

That organization moves fast to protect themselves from embarrassment.

lol, Awesome, that is classic...

[SoCalSouthSider59]

Looks like it's a done deal for the Dodgers, pending the physical, but alas, one man does not make a team, they will still choke in the L.A. smog...........