Torture is justified at least sometimes......

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1378454

 

 

I thought this was interesting.

 

 

Most Americans and a majority of people in Britain, France and South Korea say torturing terrorism suspects is justified at least in rare instances, according to AP-Ipsos polling.

 

EDIT: Someone please fix that typo in my thread title. Thanks.

Edited December 7, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[Rex Kickass]

So because the French say it's OK, mean it's OK?

 

Torture is never acceptable IMHO. I do believe that there are some moral absolutes. And torturing someone for any reason is one of those No-Nos that I live by.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

So because the French say it's OK, mean it's OK?

 

Torture is never acceptable IMHO. I do believe that there are some moral absolutes. And torturing someone for any reason is one of those No-Nos that I live by.

 

 

If torturing terrorists saves one innocent life, prevents 1 suicide bomber from getting where hes going, stops one shooting before it starts, prevents one governmental official from being assassinated then its justified.

 

I wont shed a single tear for people who hate America and want to kill as many of us as they possibly can.

[Rex Kickass]

Except even the Israelis don't torture. Because it doesn't work. And I don't think that anyone has more experience dealing with suicide bombers than these people.

[southsider2k5]

Torture is never acceptable IMHO. I do believe that there are some moral absolutes. And torturing someone for any reason is one of those No-Nos that I live by.

 

Even if he saids he is getting ABBA back together for a worldwide reunion tour?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Except even the Israelis don't torture. Because it doesn't work. And I don't think that anyone has more experience dealing with suicide bombers than these people.

 

 

LOL! Do you really believe the Mossad doesn't torture people? I HIGHLY doubt that.

[Rex Kickass]

I have to like ABBA. It's my heritage.

[southsider2k5]

I have to like ABBA. It's my heritage.

 

I pray for the unbreeders :headshake

 

[Rex Kickass]

Never said I want to. I just came out and sure enough, there's a Barbara Streisand record in my collection and a picture of Judy Garland on the wall.... comes with the toaster oven I guess.

[Balta1701]

LOL!  Do you really believe the Mossad doesn't torture people?  I HIGHLY doubt that.

Link

 

Robert Baer, a former CIA covert officer who worked in Iraq and elsewhere, said he recently spent time in an Israeli prison, talking with detainees from the radical Palestinian groups Islamic Jihad and Hamas for a British documentary about suicide bombers.

 

The Israelis, Baer said, have learned that they can gain valuable information by establishing personal relationships with the inmates and gaining their trust.

 

"They found that torture, abusive tactics, made things overall worse for them politically," Baer said. "The Israelis are friendly with their prisoners. They play cards with them and allow them to contact their families. They are getting in their minds to determine what makes up a suicide bomber."

 

.... Vincent Cannistraro, a former chief of operations and analysis in the CIA Counterterrorist Center, said detainees would say virtually anything to end their torment.

 

Baer agreed, citing intelligence reports from Arab security services that yielded useless information. "The Saudis and Egyptians torture people all the time, but I have yet to see anything that helped us on the jihad movement and (Osama bin Laden's deputy Ayman al) Zawahri," he said.

[kapkomet]

This is BS. They do whatever they have to do to get the information. Every case is different. Gaining trust is the preferred method, of course, but if that doesn't work I'm sure other things are used, except REAL torture.

Edited December 7, 2005 by kapkomet

[SoCalSouthSider59]

If torturing terrorists saves one innocent life, prevents 1 suicide bomber from getting where hes going, stops one shooting before it starts, prevents one governmental official from being assassinated then its justified. 

 

I wont shed a single tear for people who hate America and want to kill as many of us as they possibly can.

 

NUKE, well said..........

 

 

[Balta1701]

If torturing terrorists saves one innocent life, prevents 1 suicide bomber from getting where hes going, stops one shooting before it starts, prevents one governmental official from being assassinated then its justified. 

 

I wont shed a single tear for people who hate America and want to kill as many of us as they possibly can.

But what happens when torturing 1 person prevents 1 suicide bomber from getting where he's going, but it motivates 1000, or 10000 more people to begin to work/fight against America?

[kapkomet]

Uh oh, I'm wrong again. Here it comes.

 

Oops. Wrong thread. Ignore me.

Edited December 7, 2005 by kapkomet

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

But what happens when torturing 1 person prevents 1 suicide bomber from getting where he's going, but it motivates 1000, or 10000 more people to begin to work/fight against America?

 

 

Years of hateful teaching is what motivates people to take up arms against America not Johnny Jihad who got beat up in a back room somewhere.

[mr_genius]

Israelis don't torture. Because it doesn't work.

 

 

it would probably work on me

[southsider2k5]

Link

 

Just for the heck of it, I googled this so TIWIW, but there are tons of sites that detail the accusations of Israeli torture against the Palestinians. Stuff like this...

 

http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/Israelitorture.html

 

It might be true, it might not be, i don't know much about it to be honest.

[bmags]

i think too many people watch 24

[sec159row2]

If torturing terrorists saves one innocent life, prevents 1 suicide bomber from getting where hes going, stops one shooting before it starts, prevents one governmental official from being assassinated then its justified. 

 

I wont shed a single tear for people who hate America and want to kill as many of us as they possibly can.

 

 

i like nuke....

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Information received from torture is notoriously unreliable and how does this make us better than the terrorists that we claim are so inhuman?

 

If we say that we stand for higher culture, justice and all that is good -- then how can we condemn them for torture and executions when we're torturing and executing? (see the boldened portions) This isn't terrorist coddling -- but rather not wanting to see the US sink to a level of inhuman proportions for no reason that will yield any benefits.

 

See...

A recent American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) posting of one of forty-four US military autopsy reports reads as follows: "Final Autopsy Report: DOD 003164, (Detainee) Died as a result of asphyxia (lack of oxygen to the brain) due to strangulation as evidenced by the recently fractured hyoid bone in the neck and soft tissue hemorrhage extending downward to the level of the right thyroid cartilage. Autopsy revealed bone fracture, rib fractures, contusions in mid abdomen, back and buttocks extending to the left flank, abrasions, lateral buttocks. Contusions, back of legs and knees; abrasions on knees, left fingers and encircling to left wrist. Lacerations and superficial cuts, right 4th and 5th fingers. Also, blunt force injuries, predominately recent contusions (bruises) on the torso and lower extremities. Abrasions on left wrist are consistent with use of restraints. No evidence of defense injuries or natural disease. Manner of death is homicide. Whitehorse Detainment Facility, Nasiriyah, Iraq."

 

The ACLU website further reveals how: "a 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood. The exact cause of death was "undetermined" although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death.

 

Another Iraqi detainee died on January 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, while being interrogated. He was standing, shackled to the top of a doorframe with a gag in his mouth, at the time he died. The cause of death was asphyxia and blunt force injuries.

 

So read several of the 44 US military autopsy reports on the ACLU website -evidence of extensive abuse of US detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan 2002 through 2004. Anthony Romero, Executive Director of ACLU stated, "There is no question that US interrogations have resulted in deaths." ACLU attorney Amrit Sing adds, "These documents present irrefutable evidence that US operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogations."

 

Additionally, ACLU reports that in April 2003, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized the use of "environmental manipulation" as an interrogation technique in Guantánamo Bay. In September 2003, Lt. Gen. Sanchez also authorized this technique for use in Iraq. So responsibility for these human atrocities goes directly to the highest levels of power.

 

A press release on these deaths by torture was issued by the ACLU on October 25, 2005 and was immediately picked up by Associated Press and United Press International wire services, making the story available to US corporate media nationwide. A thorough check of Nexus-Lexus and Proquest electronic data bases, using the keywords ACLU and autopsy, showed that at least 95percent of the daily papers in the US didn't bother to pick up the story. The Los Angeles Times covered the story on page A-4 with a 635-word report headlined "Autopsies Support Abuse Allegations." Fewer than a dozen other daily newspapers including: Bangor Daily News, Maine, page 8; Telegraph-Herald, Dubuque Iowa, page 6; Charleston Gazette, page 5; Advocate, Baton Rouge, page 11; and a half dozen others actually covered the story. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Seattle Times buried the story inside general Iraq news articles. USA Today posted the story on their website. MSNBC posted the story to their website, but apparently did not consider it newsworthy enough to air on television.

 

What was it that Nietzsche said about when fighting monsters again?

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Wow, I am a real thread killa. /still waiting for torture proponents to say that our murdering people in custody is a good thing for our image & that it will cease terrorism

[bmags]

Wow, I am a real thread killa.  /still waiting for torture proponents to say that our murdering people in custody is a good thing for our image & that it will cease terrorism

 

you reflect what i want to say much better than i can.

[southsideirish71]

For those who believe there is no justification at all for torture....

 

 

So if Johnny Jihadi is part of a terrorist cell and has operational knowlege of a major disaster such as biological weapon/nuclear/chemical that is going to be detonated in a major metropolitan area, there is no reason what so ever to give this guy the five across the eyes, or some other methods to get the information that could save thousands of people.

 

Maybe we can give the family members of those people a letter letting them know that I know their family member died a horrible painful death, but we saved the right of due process of Johnny Jihadi.

 

 

Sorry at times the humane thing is to save the masses from death and pain over one person. That person lost their rights when they decided to take actions to murder thousands.

[bmags]

For those who believe there is no justification at all for torture....

So if Johnny Jihadi is part of a terrorist cell and has operational knowlege of a major disaster such as biological weapon/nuclear/chemical that is going to be detonated in a major metropolitan area, there is no reason what so ever to give this guy the five across the eyes, or some other methods to get the information that could save thousands of people. 

 

Maybe we can give the family members of those people a letter letting them know that I know their family member died a horrible painful death, but we saved the right of due process of Johnny Jihadi.

Sorry at times the humane thing is to save the masses from death and pain over one person.  That person lost their rights when they decided to take actions to murder thousands.

 

yes, yes, the famous "Die Hard 3" hypothetical situation... :rolly

[southsideirish71]

yes, yes, the famous "Die Hard 3" hypothetical situation... :rolly

 

Yeah we live in a world that terrorist will never ever ever get their hands on those types of weapons, and if they do, they will never ever ever use them in large metropolitan areas.

 

Ask yourself a few years ago, that if these same people were going to hijack planes and have coordinated suicide attacks that would bring down the twin towers. I am sure that the same Die Hard 3 hypothetical comment would come up.