Torture is justified at least sometimes......

[bmags]

Yeah we live in a world that terrorist will never ever ever get their hands on those types of weapons, and if they do, they will never ever ever use them in large metropolitan areas. 

 

Ask yourself a few years ago, that if these same people were going to hijack planes and have coordinated suicide attacks that would bring down the twin towers.  I am sure that the same Die Hard 3 hypothetical comment would come up.

 

yes, yes, hard to say no when you set up a question as :

 

okay, we have two minutes to dismantle a bomb that will kill millions and we have the only person who knows the code in custody, and he says the only way to get it out of him is to torture. What would you do?

 

um,well, uhhh...

 

The fact is this isn't how torture is used. It is on a far lower scale and when used, the information received has been largely fabricated so that the torture would stop. It's a hollywood mentality that still shows that all you have to do is twist his nipples and he'll give u the information, but they could say anything and we look into it and its probably bulls***. Innocent people are being tortured, and we are sitting here saying, yeah, but we should keep torture availabel just in case with two minutes left to go in the fourth quarter...

 

the fact is, if a scenario like this comes up...law will likely be bypassed. BUt that doesn't mean we should not legislate a no-torture policy, just because the doomsday scenario is in the distance.

[YASNY]

For those who believe there is no justification at all for torture....

So if Johnny Jihadi is part of a terrorist cell and has operational knowlege of a major disaster such as biological weapon/nuclear/chemical that is going to be detonated in a major metropolitan area, there is no reason what so ever to give this guy the five across the eyes, or some other methods to get the information that could save thousands of people. 

 

Maybe we can give the family members of those people a letter letting them know that I know their family member died a horrible painful death, but we saved the right of due process of Johnny Jihadi.

Sorry at times the humane thing is to save the masses from death and pain over one person.  That person lost their rights when they decided to take actions to murder thousands.

 

Not only can't we torture them with 5 across the eyes, but we can't humiliate them, deprive them of sleep, let them get cold, let them get hot, play loud music, insult their religion, insult their mothers, etc, so on and so forth and finally yada yada yada.

[southsider2k5]

Out of curiousity, where does the line end? Is it really different that a Fed Air Marshall shot and killed someone who had a bomb and seemed to be making actions that could be construed as threatening? INstead if someone knew someone who had a bomb that could blow up the city, as opposed to just having it on their person, we should just ask where it is? How is that different?

[Rex Kickass]

What makes you think that a suicide bomber - who wants to die to begin with - would care what you do to him before his bombing?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Wow, I am a real thread killa.  /still waiting for torture proponents to say that our murdering people in custody is a good thing for our image & that it will cease terrorism

 

 

OH MY GOD terrorists dies while in our custody?!?!!? SAY IT AINT SO!!! Save your tears for their innocent victims.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Maybe we can give the family members of those people a letter letting them know that I know their family member died a horrible painful death, but we saved the right of due process of Johnny Jihadi.

 

 

The lives of the innocent are clearly not worthy of consideration to these lefties who want to assign rights to terrorists that do not exist.

[Texsox]

Never said I want to. I just came out and sure enough, there's a Barbara Streisand record in my collection and a picture of Judy Garland on the wall.... comes with the toaster oven I guess.

That is torture of the cruelest kind.

 

The biggest problem I have with torture is the information is rarely accurate and when we act on bad information, it can be worse than not acting at all.

 

If I started beating you, at what point would you tell me anything to make it stop? I'll bet you with a stun gun and a few other devices I could have Nuke telling me Hillary is great, YASNY singing Howard Dean praises, and PA denouncing Jesus.

 

Using Nuke's example. If I have a hint that someone has planned a terrorist attack. I torture someone with no knowledge until they say Chicago on Saturday, and the city is evacuated, and there was no plot, what has that gained us?

 

Now, a better conversation and debate would be, are we being too soft, without reaching torture. I could easily believe that we have drawn the line too far away from torture and we could probably do more. But sub contracting torture and other means of getting around UN and International Law, is not the route the US should take as the beacon of human dignity and human rights for the world to see. When we lower ourselves to the same level of evil as we are trying to eliminate, we aren't changing anything and making it worse.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

That is torture of the cruelest kind.

 

The biggest problem I have with torture is the information is rarely accurate and when we act on bad information, it can be worse than not acting at all.

 

If I started beating you, at what point would you tell me anything to make it stop? I'll bet you with a stun gun and a few other devices I could have Nuke telling me Hillary is great, YASNY singing Howard Dean praises, and PA denouncing Jesus.

 

Using Nuke's example. If I have a hint that someone has planned a terrorist attack. I torture someone with no knowledge until they say Chicago on Saturday, and the city is evacuated, and there was no plot, what has that gained us?

 

Now, a better conversation and debate would be, are we being too soft, without reaching torture. I could easily believe that we have drawn the line too far away from torture and we could probably do more. But sub contracting torture and other means of getting around UN and International Law, is not the route the US should take as the beacon of human dignity and human rights for the world to see. When we lower ourselves to the same level of evil as we are trying to eliminate, we aren't changing anything and making it worse.

 

 

I just love how you people automatically assume that every bit of info garnered from torture is false. But then it has to be simply because certain people believe that no good can ever come from it.

 

 

The "dumbing down" of torture as I call it is another thing that bothers me. Hell, we crank up the AC and thats torture, make the guy wet his pants by having a dog bark at him.........torture, make him stand for a few hours...........torture. Spare me. Next thing you know people will start saying we're torturing them cause we're not buffing their nails and feeding them bon bons. HELLO PEOPLE THEY'D KILL YOU ME AND EVERYONE ELSE IN AMERICA IF THEY HAD HALF A CHANCE!!!

[Rex Kickass]

I love how in your world there are only two options. Bon Bons and Torture.

 

Please.

 

There's a line between what's acceptable and what's torture. I don't make that line. People a lot smarter than most of us make that line. I can accept strolling all the way up to that line. But I can't accept us crossing that line.

 

But the one thing I'm sure of is that acceptable behavior would include NOT feeding detainees bonbons and giving them mani/pedis.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I love how in your world there are only two options. Bon Bons and Torture.

 

Please.

 

 

 

 

Dont twist my words around cause that's not what I said.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Dont twist my words around cause that's not what I said.

Actually you've been very adept at creating a straw man.

 

And I'd love to know from anybody who "Homicide" as the cause of death of a person in our custody due to blunt force trauma is any different than people being kidnapped/killed by the insurgents.

 

If we claim we're so much better then we shouldn't be beating people to death.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Actually you've been very adept at creating a straw man.

 

And I'd love to know from anybody who "Homicide" as the cause of death of a person in our custody due to blunt force trauma is any different than people being kidnapped/killed by the insurgents.

 

If we claim we're so much better then we shouldn't be beating people to death.

 

 

How bout the fact that terrorists kill indiscriminantely, drive car bombs into crowded markets full of people, kidnap civillians and hold them for ransom, plant bombs on the side of the road, chop off peoples heads and post the videos on the internet, assassinate government officials, destroy the nations infrastructure, hinder reconstruction efforts, murder people who co-operate with the government and on and on and on and on and on.

 

We dont have to coddle terrorists to prove we're better than anyone, they do a great job of that for us.

[southsider2k5]

I love how in your world there are only two options. Bon Bons and Torture.

 

For me bon bons would be torture :puke

[Texsox]

Spare me.  Next thing you know people will start saying we're torturing them cause we're not buffing their nails and feeding them bon bons.  HELLO PEOPLE THEY'D KILL YOU ME AND EVERYONE ELSE IN AMERICA IF THEY HAD HALF A CHANCE!!!

 

Isn't one of the reasons we are fighting in Iraq because the Iraqi government used torture?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Isn't one of the reasons we are fighting in Iraq because the Iraqi government used torture?

 

 

Like when they cut off peoples ears because they didn't have a good showing at a soccer match?

 

 

Or that they didn't consent to have Uday Hussein rape their daughter?

 

 

Or that they happened to be Shiite?

 

 

Apples and Oranges.

[Texsox]

We dont have to coddle terrorists to prove we're better than anyone, they do a great job of that for us.

 

So anything less than the Internationally recognized boundaries of torture is coddling? Please explain?

 

Who is advocating coddling? Everyone seems to be saying stay on this side of the line, don't become Hussein, Hitler, Mengele, etc. As the beacon of human rights and freedom, don't we have an obligation to observe international law? What message are we sending if we stoop to the same level of evil as those we are fighting? How can we set ourselves up as the shining example of a society and break International Laws?

 

Do everything allowed under International Conventions, International Laws, and US Laws. Nothing more, sometimes less if it serves the purpose.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

So anything less than the Internationally recognized boundaries of torture is coddling? Please explain?

 

Who is advocating coddling? Everyone seems to be saying stay on this side of the line, don't become Hussein, Hitler, Mengele, etc. As the beacon of human rights and freedom, don't we have an obligation to observe international law? What message are we sending if we stoop to the same level of evil as those we are fighting? How can we set ourselves up as the shining example of a society and break International Laws?

 

Do everything allowed under International Conventions, International Laws, and US Laws. Nothing more, sometimes less if it serves the purpose.

 

 

You people are advocating coddling when you say we cant use harsh methods to extract information from these people. If Im not mistaken under international law all an interrogator can do to a suspect is talk to him and nothing more.

 

 

I fail to see how beating information out of a terrorist can be equated to cutting off someones ear or dipping him in acid ( yes Hussein did that ) or to performing medical experiments on people ( Hitler/Mengele ).

[Rex Kickass]

Next thing you know people will start saying we're torturing them cause we're not buffing their nails and feeding them bon bons.

 

I think you were quite clear.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I think you were quite clear.

 

 

Yeah I was quite clear that in your world of absolutes that anything shy of coddling is torture and I used satire to do it.

[Rex Kickass]

You don't even read what I post do you?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

You don't even read what I post do you?

 

 

Your meaning was quite clear.

[Rex Kickass]

There's a line between what's acceptable and what's torture. I don't make that line. People a lot smarter than most of us make that line. I can accept strolling all the way up to that line. But I can't accept us crossing that line.

 

I think so too.

[sec159row2]

Never said I want to. I just came out and sure enough, there's a Barbara Streisand record in my collection and a picture of Judy Garland on the wall.... comes with the toaster oven I guess.

 

any coincidence barbara's initials are BS..??????

[Texsox]

You people are advocating coddling when you say we cant use harsh methods to extract information from these people.  If Im not mistaken under international law all an interrogator can do to a suspect is talk to him and nothing more. 

I fail to see how beating information out of a terrorist can be equated to cutting off someones ear or dipping him in acid ( yes Hussein did that ) or to performing medical experiments on people ( Hitler/Mengele ).

 

Nuke, I don't believe that that is the limit under International law. But for the sake of a question, how do you justify the US breaking International Law? We are suppose to be the standard bearer of decency and human dignity, can we really say one thing and do another and have any credibility in the world?

 

BTW, check out this link to a recently unclassified Rummy memo.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/03.04.16.pdf

 

There is a lot they can do.