Heads22 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 "Air raid, Pearl Harbor. This is no drill." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 There is a school of thought that says that Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor to happen as justification for getting into WW2. Anyone believe that.........I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 10:59 AM) There is a school of thought that says that Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor to happen as justification for getting into WW2. Anyone believe that.........I do. Not a chance in Hell. He very likely did want an excuse to enter the European war, but he never imagined the loss of almost the entire Pacific Fleet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:01 PM) Not a chance in Hell. He very likely did want an excuse to enter the European war, but he never imagined the loss of almost the entire Pacific Fleet. So it was coincidence then that the far more valuable aircraft carriers left port only a couple of days prior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:59 PM) There is a school of thought that says that Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor to happen as justification for getting into WW2. That school is apparently the group that rides the short bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 11:02 AM) So it was coincidence then that the far more valuable aircraft carriers left port only a couple of days prior? Yes, it was. They were on a run to deliver aircraft to Wake Island, which had been preparing for a possible invasion for months and was ready to receive the newer aircraft. Those aircraft performed quite well in the defense of Wake, btw. Edit: oh yeah, and 1 more thought...at the time, the U.S. military and most of the folks in the government still imagined sea warfare involving what it had in the years before - large concentrations of battleships slugging it out. It wasn't really until Pearl, when all we had was aircraft carriers left, when the military really started using the potential of the Carrier. The Japanese realized the Carrier's potential before the war started - leading to Pearl and the sinking of Force Z near Singapore. If you asked people on Dec. 6th, 1941, which ships they'd rather lose in an attack, I bet you the large majority of the Navy would have said the carriers. They were really not thought of as more valuable than the battleships until we had no battleships left. Edited December 7, 2005 by Balta1701 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 I'll accept that if you accept that the whole Kuwait thing in 1991 was really a plan by Poppy Bush to push Japan into a deep recession that would take ten years to get out of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy! Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 There is a school of thought that says that Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor to happen as justification for getting into WW2. Anyone believe that.........I do. Why, yes. Yes I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(Mercy! @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:18 PM) Why, yes. Yes I do. I think there is a photo thread somewhere around here for posting pics of yourself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(Controlled Chaos @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:21 PM) I think there is a photo thread somewhere around here for posting pics of yourself... hehehehe mercy! just wants to be friends.... she's lonely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(Mercy! @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:18 PM) Why, yes. Yes I do. I expected a less than intelligent response from you. Now while you're laughing at your silly picture of tinfoil hats explain to me why, having cracked the Japanese diplomatic codes and having intercepted dispatches instructing operatives in Honolulu to do a reconnisance of Pearl Harbor and report on the locations of American ships, that we did nothing about it. We knew they were scoping the place out for a possible attack and we did nothing about it. Hell, we didn't even tell the commanders in Hawaii about it. Edited December 7, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 02:27 PM) Now while you're laughing at your silly picture of tinfoil hats explain to me why, having cracked the Japanese diplomatic codes and having intercepted dispatches instructing operatives in Honolulu to do a reconnisance of Pearl Harbor and report on the locations of American ships, that we did nothing about it. You mean like why didn't we do anything about all the now-obvious data about Al Qaida we had before 9/11? Or why FBI agents were pushed away from acting on it? Do you think that the Bush administration wanted 9/11 to happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 11:27 AM) I expected a less than intelligent response from you. Now while you're laughing at your silly picture of tinfoil hats explain to me why, having cracked the Japanese diplomatic codes and having intercepted dispatches instructing operatives in Honolulu to do a reconnisance of Pearl Harbor and report on the locations of American ships, that we did nothing about it. We knew they were scoping the place out for a possible attack and we did nothing about it. Hell, we didn't even tell the commanders in Hawaii about it. There could be lots of reasons why we didn't do anything about it. We were scoping out the locations of Japanese ships for months before the attack...we lost track of 1 fleet in late November. Hell, Amelia Earhart's flight may very well have involved taking photos of Japanese positions in the south Pacific, since she was flying over there anyway. Recon of a potential enemy's ships is certainly nothing out of the ordinary, especially since our fleet was based there...that way you have an estimate of their strength if they sail out to meet the fleet. Simply pointing out stupid things which were done before the attack doesn't prove by any stretch of the imagination that FDR let it happen. What you would actually need is to not only show that these stupid things happened, but that FDR knew of every single detail of them and deliberately chose the things which happened. Do we know for a fact that FDR knew every detail that was coming from those intercepts? Hell, for a time he wasn't even permitted to see them. The military was sending out warnings to its pacific bases, but none of them were specific at all. There were even rumors of potential attacks on the weekends before the 7th, attacks which turned out to not happen...which could have very well made the leadership feel less inclined to send out war messages before the final Japanese declaration was given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 07:29 PM) You mean like why didn't we do anything about all the now-obvious data about Al Qaida we had before 9/11? Or why FBI agents were pushed away from acting on it? Do you think that the Bush administration wanted 9/11 to happen? Oh Good God. I knew this was coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 What do you mean? I think that's actually a fair comparison. There's all sorts of substantial circumstantial evidence that could lead you to either conclusion. Just because the President is mentioned as an example doesn't mean he's being implicated in anything. Calm down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:34 PM) There could be lots of reasons why we didn't do anything about it. We were scoping out the locations of Japanese ships for months before the attack...we lost track of 1 fleet in late November. Hell, Amelia Earhart's flight may very well have involved taking photos of Japanese positions in the south Pacific, since she was flying over there anyway. Recon of a potential enemy's ships is certainly nothing out of the ordinary, especially since our fleet was based there...that way you have an estimate of their strength if they sail out to meet the fleet. Simply pointing out stupid things which were done before the attack doesn't prove by any stretch of the imagination that FDR let it happen. What you would actually need is to not only show that these stupid things happened, but that FDR knew of every single detail of them and deliberately chose the things which happened. Do we know for a fact that FDR knew every detail that was coming from those intercepts? Hell, for a time he wasn't even permitted to see them. The military was sending out warnings to its pacific bases, but none of them were specific at all. There were even rumors of potential attacks on the weekends before the 7th, attacks which turned out to not happen...which could have very well made the leadership feel less inclined to send out war messages before the final Japanese declaration was given. Actually, Copies of "Magic" were always promptly delivered in locked pouches to President Roosevelt, and the secretaries of State, War, and Navy. They also went to Army Chief of Staff General George Marshall and to the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Harold Stark. Hell, we even gave Britain 3 of the machines we engineered to gather intercepts but still none of this intel made it to Hawaii. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 11:46 AM) Actually, Copies of "Magic" were always promptly delivered in locked pouches to President Roosevelt, and the secretaries of State, War, and Navy. They also went to Army Chief of Staff General George Marshall and to the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Harold Stark. Hell, we even gave Britain 3 of the machines we engineered to gather intercepts but still none of this intel made it to Hawaii. For a significant period of time, FDR had his name removed from the list of those who were allowed to see the Magic intercepts, as one of the intercepts was found in one of his trash cans. He got back on the list only shortly before teh 7th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 Why am I starting to feel so normal lately?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(kapkomet @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:37 PM) Oh Good God. I knew this was coming. Goose.. gander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 07:40 PM) What do you mean? I think that's actually a fair comparison. There's all sorts of substantial circumstantial evidence that could lead you to either conclusion. Just because the President is mentioned as an example doesn't mean he's being implicated in anything. Calm down. CALM DOWN?!? WTF? WHAT?!? OUTRAGE! F-BOMBS! OMG! That comparison is always made. GWB knew about 9/11 and didn't stop it because he needed a reason to get rid of Saddam. (Now we're going to get some articles that suggest it if the pattern holds true). Let's just stick to Pearl Harbor and the Germans bombing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 02:48 PM) Why am I starting to feel so normal lately?? The meds are working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 01:47 PM) For a significant period of time, FDR had his name removed from the list of those who were allowed to see the Magic intercepts, as one of the intercepts was found in one of his trash cans. He got back on the list only shortly before teh 7th. How does the President allow himself to be taken out of the loop on untainted intelligence from an aggressive nation with whom war was imminent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 *waits for it* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSouthSider59 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 11:59 AM) There is a school of thought that says that Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor to happen as justification for getting into WW2. Anyone believe that.........I do. Dec. 7th, 1941........A day that will, and still does, live in infamy............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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