Lakers @ bulls.

[WilliamTell]

I consider it "beating the s*** outta someone" when you beat them over and over and over in "important" games like, oh, I dunno, the Finals.

 

Yeah and 3 of the 4 games they won by 5 points or less. That's getting the s*** beat out of you alright.

[SoxFan1]

Yeah and 3 of the 4 games they won by 5 points or less. That's getting the s*** beat out of you alright.

What counts in the end...wins and losses.

 

Bulls 6, Jazz 0

[WilliamTell]

What counts in the end...wins and losses.

 

Bulls 6, Jazz 0

 

Wins and losses do count in the end I guess. From 1990-2000 the Bulls had 520 wins, the Jazz had 542 but the Jazz never won the grand prize. I guess I'll have to be satisfied with the two men who showed millions how to play the game the right way. Don't need to be flashy, just execute perfectly. Stockton and Malone had huge hearts but that can only go so far. So what if they didn't win a championship, I'm still proud of them.

[qwerty]

Wins and losses do count in the end I guess. From 1990-2000 the Bulls had 520 wins, the Jazz had 542 but the Jazz never won the grand prize. I guess I'll have to be satisfied with the two men who showed millions how to play the game the right way. Don't need to be flashy, just execute perfectly. Stockton and Malone had huge hearts but that can only go so far. So what if they didn't win a championship, I'm still proud of them.

 

The years after the dynasty needs to be thrown out the window. Some of the worst teams ever put together.

[WilliamTell]

The years after the dynasty needs to be thrown out the window. Some of the worst teams ever put together.

 

And luckily for the Bulls there was a lockout in the 98-99 season.

[WilliamTell]

Anyways I have to head out. This thread was supposed to talk about the game and Scottie Pippen getting his jersey retired and I kind of took it off topic. Congrats to Scottie for that, it was well deserved. Goodnight all.

Edited December 10, 2005 by WilliamTell

[Jordan4life_2007]

I disagree with those who claim Pippen would've been more and gotten more recognition away from MJ. First of all, Pippen was not a superstar. He was a great player, no doubt, but never, ever in the same catergory of Michael, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, ect. Scottie wasn't the type of player that was gonna dominate offensively. People say he had his best year in 94 without Jordan. I think he actually had a better year in 1992 with Jordan. The stats are pretty much indentical. Second, Scottie was not a go to guy. He wasn't a guy that could take over the game in the 4th quarter, or a guy that you wanted with the ball in his hands at the end of a game. There's a reason Phil elected to go with Kukoc for the final shot over Pippen in that one playoff game in 94. As far as more recognition, you've got to be kidding me if you think Scottie would've gotten more someplace else then in Chicago playing with Michael. Scottie got plenty of recognition, endorsments, etc. Sure, you got some bozo's who think it was all Michael, but smart people know that it wasn't just the Michael show.

 

Lastly, I think some people forget how immature Scottie was when he first came in. He was somewhat lazy and didn't take the game as seriously as he should've have. I remember reading in one of Phil's books that it was Michael who would always get on Scottie to work harder and take the game more seriously. That Michael's work ethic and determination rubbed off on Scottie, making him a better player. I'm not saying Michael is responsible for what Scottie was able to accomplish, but don't underestimate the impact Michael had on Scottie.

 

Anyway, congrats to Scottie on a wonderful career. He's, imo, the greatest perimiter defender in the history of the game. I'll never forget the d he put on Mark Jackson in the 1998 ECF'S that totally took the Pacers, a damn good team mind you, out of their offense. To this day, there still isn't a sf in the game that can do all the things Pip could do. It might be a while before we seen another one.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Jordan4life_2005

[Jordan4life_2007]

As far as the game tonight, the Bulls just aren't very good right now. I think they're fortunate to have the record they have. They look pretty decent one night, only to follow it up with a s***ty performance like tonight. Tyson is making it very hard for me to defend him to all the haters. If Tyson is hurt, he needs to sit down. Because he's not helping the team by being out there. The defense is nowhere near what it was last year. They've got to get back to defending like they're capable.

[DBAHO]

What do you think are the chances of the Bulls trading for a center on Dec 15?

[qwerty]

What do you think are the chances of the Bulls trading for a center on Dec 15?

 

Zero unless chandler/sweetney are put on the dl for long term.

[Kyyle23]

What do you think are the chances of the Bulls trading for a center on Dec 15?

 

I think that depends on someone stupid enough to take Tim Thomas' worthless ass in a deal. His expiring contract is attractive, his attitude is not. I just want someone on the bench who can produce. Not someone collecting 14 million this year and crying about it.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I disagree with those who claim Pippen would've been more and gotten more recognition away from MJ.  First of all,  Pippen was not a superstar.  He was a great player,  no doubt,  but never,  ever in the same catergory of Michael,  Magic,  Bird,  Hakeem,  ect.

 

 

You place very high standards on "superstar." I didn't know you had to be one of the top ten players of all time. I think being top 50 would suffice, and Pippen is certainly that.

 

This has to be one of the first times I've ever heard someone say PIP isn't a superstar...

 

His accolades speak for themselves, and he definitely deserves the recognition that he gets and more.

 

Lastly,  I think some people forget how immature Scottie was when he first came in.  He was somewhat lazy and didn't take the game as seriously as he should've have.  I remember reading in one of Phil's books that it was Michael who would always get on Scottie to work harder and take the game more seriously.  That Michael's work ethic and determination rubbed off on Scottie,  making him a better player.  I'm not saying Michael is responsible for what Scottie was able to accomplish,  but don't underestimate the impact Michael had on Scottie.

 

 

Wow. Pippen was lazy? Yeah, he must have been seeing how everything was served to him on a silver platter...a high school superstar highly recruited by all of the prestigious colleges, right?

 

Recognize how hard he worked. Look back at his roots. He earned it all.

 

Anyways, I like the underrated status that Pip sometimes gets. It makes me appreciate his game more.

Edited December 10, 2005 by SleepyWhiteSox

[hammerhead johnson]

First of all, Pippen was not a superstar.  He was a great player, no doubt, but never, ever in the same catergory of Michael, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, ect. 

 

Anyway, congrats to Scottie on a wonderful career.  He's, imo, the greatest perimiter defender in the history of the game. 

 

If you're the greatest defensive SF since the 60s and perhaps the greatest transition player of all time, you're without question a superstar. Next thing I know, you'll be saying that Bill Russell wasn't a superstar because he couldn't take over games on the offensive end.

 

In today's game, you'd probably say that Allen Iverson is a superstar. Meanwhile, Pippen is/was so much more valuable than that dude that it isn't even funny.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You place very high standards on "superstar."  I didn't know you had to be one of the top ten players of all time.  I think being top 50 would suffice, and Pippen is certainly that.

 

This has to be one of the first times I've ever heard someone say PIP isn't a superstar...

 

I said Pippen was a great player. If he's a superstar, what is Jordan? A super, super star?

 

His accolades speak for themselves, and he definitely deserves the recognition that he gets and more.

 

No argument here. Once again, I said he was a great player. But he's simply not in the class of the absolute greats. He's more in the James Worthy, Kevin Mchale class. And that's certainly no insult.

 

 

Wow.  Pippen was lazy?  Yeah, he must have been seeing how everything was served to him on a silver platter...a high school superstar highly recruited by all of the prestigious colleges, right?

 

That's right. You only remember the 1991-1998 Pippen. You don't remeber the guy who even admitted himself that he didn't take the game as seriously as he should've at first. Pippen obviously became a very dedicated player as he got older. But he wasn't that way as a rookie.

 

Recognize how hard he worked.  Look back at his roots.  He earned it all.

 

Do you want a quote of Pippen admitting himself that he was immature as a rookie? I can probably find one.

 

Anyways, I like the underrated status that Pip sometimes gets.  It makes me appreciate his game more.

 

You're trying to fight a battle that isn't there. Pippen is unquestionably a great player. I've already said that I think he's the best perimiter defender ever. He was perfect for the role that he was in. But I still stand by my opinion that Scottie was never, and could never be a go to guy ala Jordan, Bird, Magic, ect.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Jordan4life_2005

[WilliamTell]

If you're the greatest defensive SF since the 60s and perhaps the greatest transition player of all time, you're without question a superstar.  Next thing I know, you'll be saying that Bill Russell wasn't a superstar because he couldn't take over games on the offensive end.

 

In today's game, you'd probably say that Allen Iverson is a superstar.  Meanwhile, Pippen is/was so much more valuable than that dude that it isn't even funny.

 

I agree that Allen Iverson is a superstar in today's NBA. But I don't know if Pippen was much more valuable than Iverson is. Iverson single handedly lead his team to the NBA Finals. Now he's taken over as the team's point guard aswell.

[Jordan4life_2007]

If you're the greatest defensive SF since the 60s and perhaps the greatest transition player of all time, you're without question a superstar.  Next thing I know, you'll be saying that Bill Russell wasn't a superstar because he couldn't take over games on the offensive end.

 

 

A superstar wouldn't have taken 1 shot in a 4th quarter as his team was choking away a 15 point lead in a game 7 against the Lakers in 2000. A superstar is a guy that can take over a game at any time, a guy that you want with the ball in his hands to get you a big bucket at the end of a game. There's a reason that Scottie is known as the "sidekick". Some take that as an insult. Hell, Kevin Mchale and James Worthy are two of the best "sidekicks" ever. That's the class I would put Pippen in. And as i'm sure you know, Mchale and Worthy are both hall of famers. The Bill Russell comment is not even worth responding to.

 

In today's game, you'd probably say that Allen Iverson is a superstar.  Meanwhile, Pippen is/was so much more valuable than that dude that it isn't even funny.

 

First of all, don't try and put words into my mouth simply because you disagree with me. They're exactly 3 superstars in the game today. Shaq, Duncan and KG. And it's hard to say who's more valuable between Pip and AI because one guy was the sidekick to the greatest player ever, the other has been the go to guy for all of his career. Pippen obviously kills AI on defense. AI kills Pip on offense. You can't really compare who's more valuable.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Jordan4life_2005

[WilliamTell]

A superstar wouldn't have taken 1 shot in a 4th quarter as his team was choking away a 15 point lead in a game 7 against the Lakers in 2000.  A superstar is a guy that can take over a game at any time,  a guy that you want with the ball in his hands to get you a big bucket at the end of a game.  There's a reason that Scottie is known as the "sidekick".  Some take that as an insult.  Hell,  Kevin Mchale and James Worthy are two of the best "sidekicks" ever.  That's the class I would put Pippen in.  And as i'm sure you know,  Mchale and Worthy are both hall of famers.  The Bills Russell comment is not even worth responding to.

First of all,  don't try and put words into my mouth simply because you disagree with me.  They're exactly 3 superstars in the game today.  Shaq,  Duncan and KG.  And it's hard to say who's more valuable between Pip and AI because one guy was the sidekick to the greatest player ever,  the other has been the go to guy for all of his career.  Pippen obviously kills AI on defense.  AI kills Pip on offense.  You can't really compare who's more valuable.

 

lol thank you for not mentioning the name Kobe. I'd say you nailed it with the top 3. LeBron will make it very soon, and who knows what Dwayne Wade will become when he doesn't have Shaq at all.

[hammerhead johnson]

A superstar wouldn't have taken 1 shot in a 4th quarter as his team was choking away a 15 point lead in a game 7 against the Lakers in 2000.  A superstar is a guy that can take over a game at any time,  a guy that you want with the ball in his hands to get you a big bucket at the end of a game.  There's a reason that Scottie is known as the "sidekick".  Some take that as an insult.  Hell,  Kevin Mchale and James Worthy are two of the best "sidekicks" ever.  That's the class I would put Pippen in.  And as i'm sure you know,  Mchale and Worthy are both hall of famers.  The Bill Russell comment is not even worth responding to.

 

LOL, why not?

 

Was Bill Russell the guy that you wanted with the ball in his hands at the end of a game? I don't think so.

 

And what about Dennis Rodman, the greatest defensive PF of all time? He wasn't a superstar because he wasn't a scoring option? Yeah, right.

 

Your views are that of a casual fan, a Mike North or someone like that who knows a little about a lot of things, but not really enough to go in depth about anything in particular. No offense, but that's just what I've observed for close to two years now.

 

For instance, the fact that he was the greatest defensive SF EVER and arguably the greatest transition player EVER doesn't really register.

 

There is a reason he was known as a sidekick? Really now, how many championships would Jordan have had without Pippen?

[Rowand44]

  Really now, how many championships would Jordan have had without Pippen?

0.

[hammerhead johnson]

Iverson single handedly lead his team to the NBA Finals. Now he's taken over as the team's point guard aswell.

 

Come on. That was a deep defensive squad with the legendary Dikembe Mutombo, Raja Bell, Eric Snow, George Lynch, etc. Larry Brown as head coach? That team could defend you, and then some. That's the only reason why they made it into the Finals.

 

Iverson is an atrocious team player. He can't take a team anywhere unless he is completely surrounded by defensive-minded individuals in an iron-clad defnsive system, and even then, his flair for the dramatic on the offensive end is just crap IMO.

 

Pippen by a mile unless you're a casual fan.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

They're exactly 3 superstars in the game today.  Shaq,  Duncan and KG. 

 

You must be talking about name recognition because I certainly don't consider Shaq a superstar TODAY. He looks like more of a player on the decline...

 

Well, at least you didn't say Grant Hill.

 

And I find it funny that you complain about Pip not being a go-to guy when Shaq is the first guy you foul in crunch time because of his atrocious free throw shooting.

 

You're making it strange for me having to agree with hammerhead...

 

Anyways, ANY player you put next to The Greatest Player of All Time is going to be a "sidekick" by nature, even the other "superstars" that you've named, so I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, other than your use of "superstar" being different from most everone else.

[Jordan4life_2007]

LOL, why not?

 

Was Bill Russell the guy that you wanted with the ball in his hands at the end of a game?  I don't think so.

 

Not really. But Russell could dominate a game defensively like no player in history, a lot more than a permiter player can. He's more the exception than anything. Those Celtic teams were built around Russell and his defensive abilities. I don't believe a championship team could be built around Pippen.

 

 

And what about Dennis Rodman, the greatest defensive PF of all time?  He wasn't a superstar because he wasn't a scoring option?  Yeah, right.

 

 

Could you build a championship team around Rodman? Could a team with Rodman as it's second best player win a title? Nope. That doesn't mean he's not great at what he does. But in the end, he's still a role player.

 

Your views are that of a casual fan, a Mike North or someone like that who knows a little about a lot of things, but not really enough to go in depth about anything in particular.  No offense, but that's just what I've observed for close to two years now.

 

I really don't care what you think my views are. I've got an opinion. You've got an opinion. Just leave it at that. You're acting like i'm saying Pippen was a bum. He was a great player. I would never dispute that. But he had some flaws. And game 7 against the Lakers in 2000 showed exactly why Pippen was best suited in the co pilot role. That's all i'm sayin.

 

 

 

For instance, the fact that he was the greatest defensive SF EVER and arguably the greatest transition player EVER doesn't really register.

 

 

Come again? Where are you going with this? I've already said more than once that Pippen is not only the greatest defensive sf ever, he's the greatest defensive perimiter player ever. Period. What's the problem?

 

There is a reason he was known as a sidekick?  Really now, how many championships would Jordan have had without Pippen?

 

 

What's your point with this comment? Did I somehow hint that Jordan would've won titles without Pippen? Jordan was the main guy. There's no disputing that. That doesn't mean he did it by himself.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Jordan4life_2005

[WilliamTell]

Come on.  That was a deep defensive squad with the legendary Dikembe Mutombo, Raja Bell, Eric Snow, George Lynch, etc.  Larry Brown as head coach?  That team could defend you, and then some.  That's the only reason why they made it into the Finals.

 

Iverson is an atrocious team player.  He can't take a team anywhere unless he is completely surrounded by defensive-minded individuals in an iron-clad defnsive system, and even then, his flair for the dramatic on the offensive end is just crap IMO.

 

Pippen by a mile unless you're a casual fan.

 

Yeah and I suppose Iverson's 31 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, and 2.5 steals per game had nothing to do with it. Bell barely played that year, Snow isn't really anything since he's left Philadelphia and that goes for Lynch too. You can say it was the coach and only the coach if you want, but I also believe Iverson had something to do with it.

[nitetrain8601]

I agree with Hammerhead on everything minus AI and that's very hard to do because me and HHJ never agree on anything basketball related.