Thisssssssssssssssss could be trouble.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1920074,00.html

 

 

Think things are crazy in the Middle East now?

 

HAR HAR HAR.

[Soxy]

Isreal: Committed to peace

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Isreal: Committed to peace

 

 

Iran is in the process of acquiring nukes and their leader goes public saying he wants Isreal wiped off the map. If you were Isreal would you feel threatened?

 

 

NAAAAAAAAH

Edited December 12, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[Soxy]

Iran is in the process of acquiring nukes and their leader goes public saying he wants Isreal wiped off the map.  If you were Isreal would you feel threatened? 

NAAAAAAAAH

I'm not saying Iran is Captain Goody-Two-Shoes, I'm just saying that Israel has a lot of blood on its hands too. I'm not sure why so many people make it some black and white Israel = Good; Rest of Mideast = Bad. The whole bunch of them are bullies, imho.

[bmags]

I'm not saying Iran is Captain Goody-Two-Shoes, I'm just saying that Israel has a lot of blood on its hands too. I'm not sure why so many people make it some black and white Israel = Good; Rest of Mideast = Bad. The whole bunch of them are bullies, imho.

 

it's been that way for a looong time thou...

 

yeah this is very very scary to me. I'd hope the world intervenes at this point.

[TheBlackSox8]

it's been that way for a looong time thou...

 

yeah this is very very scary to me. I'd hope the world intervenes at this point.

Which could settle things...or possibly trigger WW3?

[EvilMonkey]

it's been that way for a looong time thou...

 

yeah this is very very scary to me. I'd hope the world intervenes at this point.

When the world intervenes, via the UN, all they do is issue a resolution about how bad Isreal is and nothing about the other side. You know, if they would just quit trying to destroy Isreal, most of the problems would just go away.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

When the world intervenes, via the UN, all they do is issue a resolution about how bad Isreal is and nothing about the other side.  You know, if they would just quit trying to destroy Isreal, most of the problems would just go away.

And if Israel would just stop promoting a quasi-apartheid state, murdering children, setting up a nuke program without the world's knowing (except for the whistleblowing of Mordechai Vanunu) and plainly stopped acting like a bunch of thugs then they'd have nothing to worry about. As scholar Norman Finkelstein once said "If the Israelis don't like the allusions to the Nazis, then they must simply stop acting like Nazis."

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't promote the violence of the Palestinians -- but when you actively shoot missiles into apartment buildings and have lots of collateral damage (not to mention shooting kids throwing rocks at tanks...or attaching kids to your vehicles to prevent rock throwing, for instance) then you've gotta expect people to be pissed off. Not to mention putting up a wall and not allowing farmers to get to their crops, kids to get to their schools, etc.

 

When you add in the attack on the USS Liberty (not to mention the potential Pentagon spy and the other already convicted spy Johnathan Pollard), it makes you wonder why Israel is still an ally.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

And if Israel would just stop promoting a quasi-apartheid state, murdering children, setting up a nuke program without the world's knowing (except for the whistleblowing of Mordechai Vanunu) and plainly stopped acting like a bunch of thugs then they'd have nothing to worry about.  As scholar Norman Finkelstein once said "If the Israelis don't like the allusions to the Nazis, then they must simply stop acting like Nazis."

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't promote the violence of the Palestinians -- but when you actively shoot missiles into apartment buildings and have lots of collateral damage (not to mention shooting kids throwing rocks at tanks...or attaching kids to your vehicles to prevent rock throwing, for instance) then you've gotta expect people to be pissed off.  Not to mention putting up a wall and not allowing farmers to get to their crops, kids to get to their schools, etc.

 

When you add in the attack on the USS Liberty (not to mention the potential Pentagon spy and the other already convicted spy Johnathan Pollard), it makes you wonder why Israel is still an ally.

 

 

Here we go again.

 

To accuse Isreal of "acting like a bunch of Thugs" is totally laughable. You want thuggery how about people running into weddings, restaurants, hopping on board busses and blowing themselves up for no other reason to kill as many Isrealis as possible regardless of whether they're civillian or military.

 

Or how about the country with the largest military in the region openly saying they're going to wipe Isreal off the map and developing the nukes to do it with.

 

You complain about the wall going up. How are they supposed to stop suicide bombers from getting to their targets then? Ask em nicely? Send a dozen roses? If Mexicans were doing suicide attacks in Texas or California you had best believe we'd do the same thing along our border.

 

The attack on the Liberty excuse is getting old as well. There were standing orders not to get near the coastline in that area, Isreal had asked the US for the exact location of our ships in the area ( something we failed to provide ), and oh, then there's the TEN seperate investigations by the US government concluding that the attack was a mistake and finding us to be just as much at fault as they were.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...y/liberty2.html

 

Oh but lets not let the facts get in the way of a good anti-Isreal conspiracy theory now.

 

:rolly

Edited December 12, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[Soxy]

Why, then, are more palestinians killed than Israelis? Seriously, if the Palestinians are the ones blowing up the innocents and old and by-standers, why are so many of them killed?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

When the world intervenes, via the UN, all they do is issue a resolution about how bad Isreal is and nothing about the other side.  You know, if they would just quit trying to destroy Isreal, most of the problems would just go away.

 

 

The mad obsession some of these people have with destroying Isreal just blows my mind.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Why, then, are more palestinians killed than Israelis? Seriously, if the Palestinians are the ones blowing up the innocents and old and by-standers, why are so many of them killed?

 

 

You throw rocks at a hornets nest you're gonna get stung. Thats all I can say about that one.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Nuke, consider yourself owned.

 

http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair1126.html plus:

 

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "

-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

 

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."

-- CIA Director Richard Helms

 

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."

-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

 

"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"

-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson

 

"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."

-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)

 

"A nice whitewash for a group of ignorant, stupid and inept [expletive deleted]."

-- Handwritten note of August 26, 1967, by NSA Deputy Director Louis W. Tordella reacting to the Israeli court decision exonerating Israelis of blame for the Liberty attack.

 

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.

-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

 

"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."

-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry

 

That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency

-- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings

 

Former NSA/CIA Director Admiral Bobby Inman "flatly rejected" the Cristol/Israeli claims that the attack was an accident

-- 5 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings

 

Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate

-- David Walsh, writing in Naval Institute Proceedings

 

"It appears to me that it was not a pure case of mistaken identity."

-- Captain William L. McGonagle, Commanding Officer, USS Liberty, speaking at Arlington National Cemetery, June 8, 1997

 

"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."

-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14

 

 

But who needs facts when you can be an apologist for state sponsored terror? And Nuke, this may be news to you -- but Israel has and does act like a bunch of thugs. Perhaps taking your head out of the hole & watching some media outside of Fox News, you might see some of these events happening. Both sides have blood on their hands -- I know that may be a difficult concept for you to grasp.

 

As for the security wall, it is nothing more than the ability to annex more land. Cheapening the debate to "There shall be no criticism of Israel's state policy because otherwise you're an anti-Semite!" cheapens the word anti-Semite & is a fascist means to deflect legitimate criticism.

 

Israeli General Moshe Dayan, the man who headed up the war effort in 1967 said “"You don't strike at the enemy because he is a bastard, but because he threatens you. And the Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us."..."But they were sitting on the Golan Heights, and ...."Dayan interrupted: "Never mind that. After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.” The attitude was continued with the Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin’s statement in a February 28, 1968 edition of Le Monde where he said “"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it."

 

Hell, there were even discussions in the high levels of the Israeli military about blowing up Muslim cultural icons – like the Dome of the Rock – which were in Gaza/West Bank so they could lessen Palestinian claims to the land being “annexed”.

 

From the 1967 war era: The Israeli elite believed “Amongst ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...With the Arabs transferring, the country will be wide open for us. With the Arabs staying, the country will be narrow and restricted...The only solution is the Land of Israel, or at least the Western Land of Israel [that is, the whole of Palestine], without Arabs.”

 

An anonymous soldier in the magazine Ha’olam Hazeh stated: “We fired such shots every night on men, women and children. Even during moonlit nights when we could identify the people, that is, distinguish between men, women and children. In the mornings we searched the area, and, by explicit order from the officer on the spot, shot the living, including those who hid or were wounded, again including the women and children.” The concept of calculated murder by the Israeli Defense Forces was further confirmed by an interview with General Uzi Narkiss who stated that Israeli troops had indeed killed civilians trying to sneak back into their homes in the West Bank. The line between Palestinian refugees and inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank were completely blurred.

 

According to Uzi Benziman, a journalist for Haaretz, “several senior Israeli commanders in the Jerusalem district, as well as [General] Dayan, the Mayor of West Jerusalem Teddy Kollek and former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion were all involved, either in the initial decision or in the actual implementation of the systematic operation to destroy the Arab quarter.”

 

Add in the programs of systematic removal starting in the 1960s by the Israelis and it is no wonder that so many Palestinians might be pissed off and willing to accessorize with dynamite. It doesn't justify what they are doing but it puts a whole lot of gray area into the "ISRAEL = TEH GOOD & PALESTINE = TEH BAD" pap.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Since you don't read very well I'll spell it out for you.

 

U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry  June 10-18, 1967  The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.

 

The Navy's own investigation says attack was not in malice.

 

 

CIA Report  June 13, 1967  The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.

 

The CIA says the attack was not intentional

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence  1979  Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.

 

The Senate said that crewmans claims of a malicous attack were WITHOUT MERIT.

House Armed Services Committee  June 1991  Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.

 

The House says there is NO EVIDENCE to support claims made by the veterans of tha attack. NONE, ZERO.

 

If that's not enough then tell me what the Isrealis would have to gain by attacking an American ship and pissing off their greatest benefactor. It doesn't add up APU and you damn well know it.

 

 

When you're gonna say you owned someone make sure you have something to back it up with.

Edited December 12, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[BHAMBARONS]

whatever side you are on you have to admit Iran is a very dangerous country filled with terrorists who are threating to wipe a country off the map and the last promise they made was in 1979 when they kidnaped our soliders and held them for over a year so we need to be careful with Iran

[Rex Kickass]

A nuclear Iran is nothing more than a move to attempt to prevent military action against it from the U.S. I don't believe the Israeli threats by Iran to be any more than bluster aimed at keeping its internal mess from exploding on itself.

 

North Korea has been threatening a sea of fire for decades on Seoul. Yet, none has happened. I wonder why....

 

Oh yeah, because dictators in power really only have the goal of staying in power.

 

Oh yeah, by the way, anti-semites hate Jews and Arabs equally. Because they are both semites.

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

Here we go again. 

 

To accuse Isreal of "acting like a bunch of Thugs" is totally laughable.  You want thuggery how about people running into weddings, restaurants, hopping on board busses and blowing themselves up for no other reason to kill as many Isrealis as possible regardless of whether they're civillian or military. 

 

Or how about the country with the largest military in the region openly saying they're going to wipe Isreal off the map and developing the nukes to do it with. 

 

You complain about the wall going up.  How are they supposed to stop suicide bombers from getting to their targets then?  Ask em nicely?  Send a dozen roses? If Mexicans were doing suicide attacks in Texas or California you had best believe we'd do the same thing along our border.

 

The attack on the Liberty excuse is getting old as well.  There were standing orders not to get near the coastline in that area, Isreal had asked the US for the exact location of our ships in the area ( something we failed to provide ), and oh, then there's the TEN seperate investigations by the US government concluding that the attack was a mistake and finding us to be just as much at fault as they were.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...y/liberty2.html

 

Oh but lets not let the facts get in the way of a good anti-Isreal conspiracy theory now.

 

Hey Nuke!

 

Not that you need my help in this debate with Lowercase,Soxy, etc., (because you are 100% correct!), but, here I am!

 

"People" like lowercase, those who have disdain, or even hatred for the US and/or Israel will spout off "facts" backing their claims, even if these "facts" are obtained from such "reliable" resources as NPR, the BBC, Al Jazeera, etc.

 

Lowercase's claims are baseless, void of any real facts, and totally false and unprovable. I guess for him it's better that Iran has nukes than Israel (AN ALLY!!!).

 

The best advice I can give you (and advice my brother should have taken!) is to ignore lowercase and his anti-American anti-Israel hatred!

 

Check out SHOEBAT.COM

 

 

 

:rolly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited December 12, 2005 by Steve Bartman's my idol

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Nuke, I'll take the word of the soldiers that were actually there and the members of the IDF who testified that they got the orders to attack the ship they knew was American (read the damn article) over some Jewish hacks trying to justify the attack on a US ship because they didn't want us to see the mass graves of soldiers that they were illegally killing during the war.

[3E8]

Oh yeah, by the way, anti-semites hate Jews and Arabs equally. Because they are both semites.

I thought the word anti-Semetic was reserved for someone hostile towards Jews only? Even though a Semite in definition could be somebody from a different number of affiliations.

 

The term anti-Semitism has historically referred to prejudice towards Jews alone, and this was the only use of this word for more than a century. It does not traditionally refer to prejudice toward other people who speak Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs or Assyrians). Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University, says that "Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semite

Edited December 12, 2005 by 3E8

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Nuke, I'll take the word of the soldiers that were actually there and the members of the IDF who testified that they got the orders to attack the ship they knew was American (read the damn article) over some Jewish hacks trying to justify the attack on a US ship because they didn't want us to see the mass graves of soldiers that they were illegally killing during the war.

 

 

So let me get this straight. The US House of Representatives, US Senate, CIA and the Navy itself, all of which conducted investigations concluding that the attack was not deliberate, are just "some Jewish hacks".

 

LOL!

 

 

Thats a new low, even for you.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

So let me get this straight.  The US House of Representatives, US Senate, CIA and the Navy itself, all of which conducted investigations concluding that the attack was not deliberate, are just "some Jewish hacks".

 

LOL!

Thats a new low, even for you.

Nuke, you should read the point by point refutations of these reports -- the eyewitnesses to the events were not allowed to testify etc. Then get back to me.

 

Plus, you know as well as I that Congressmen can be bought and sold.

[mr_genius]

My brother was being facetious when he said you subscribe to IHateIsrael.com, I'm sure.

 

However, you make no secret of your hatred of Israel (and Jews), just like my brother and I make no secret of our hatred of those who hate Israel (and Jews).

 

 

first off, who is your brother?

 

secondly, I doubt that someone who 'hates' Jews would support a team (Chicago White Sox) that is owned by someone who is Jewish.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

first off, who is your brother?

 

secondly, I doubt that someone who 'hates' Jews would support a team (Chicago White Sox) that is owned by someone who is Jewish.

His brother was a poster around here. IIRC he got banned for something completely unrelated to our debate. It was a while ago though.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Plus, you know as well as I that Congressmen can be bought and sold.

 

 

You show me without a shadow of a doubt where US Congressmen were bought off to cover up something that might have happened there then you have something.

[Balta1701]

You show me without a shadow of a doubt where US Congressmen were bought off to cover up something that might have happened there then you have something.

Nuke, I haven't a clue which of you 2 is right on this issue, but you know as well as I do that there's absolutely no way to determine "beyond a shadow of a doubt" whether or not whatever commission heard testimony on this thing decades ago actually was able to do its job, do it well, and do it without outside or higher-level political interference.

 

The only thing which could possibly do that is a criminal/DOJ lead investigation, and if they weren't breaking any laws, or even if someone higher up gave orders to prevent any full investigations, there's no reason to expect that there would be such a DOJ lead investigation of the investigation. (How's that for a tongue twister?)