Good or Bad Trade?

[BHAMBARONS]

in Spring Training.  I was impressed however like I said there is no guarantee that he will be a great Major League Player.

 

 

I wasn't meaning to come off the wrong way but what I seen out of CY this year watching him around 100 times this year is that he will be a special player

[VAfan]

I voted "terrible." The problem is that "wait and see" could make it worse.

 

Does anyone think Javier Vasquez is half the pitcher Jon Garland is? I don't. In fact, I think it is pretty clear that Javier Vasquez isn't a match for any of our top 5 pitchers, including Brandon McCarthy. He was 11-15 in the National League, which always improves pitchers' numbers because they don't have to pitch to a DH.

 

And to give up Chris Young??????????? He was the only outfield prospect in our system that I thought would become a highly skilled player -- someone who could hold down a 3-5 slot in our future lineups. I don't think Brian Anderson has a prayer of being that player, and Jerry Owens is a no-power speedster who may replace Pods some day, but isn't the complete player Young was. Not only did Young have speed and power, he also had plate discipline, something that Anderson lacks completely.

 

If KW now turns around and trades 18-game winner 26-year old Jon Garland then he will have made things worse.

 

The only way I could stomach this is if Vasquez is gone for a star outfielder. But then we will have sent our starter insurance out and could be left with the 5th-starter blues that sunk us in 2001-2004 if any one of our starters goes down. And we'll still be an arm short in the bullpen.

[juevos]

i think a good trade overall. even if kW doesn't follow it up with another trade. if young turns out to be another carlos beltran (the good beltran), then maybe we have to rethink this a bit. but you can't really argue with a starting 5 of;

 

buerhleyleileilleely

garcia

contreras

garland

vasquez

 

i wouldn't mind seeing b mac going long relief this year either. el duque and vizcaino weren't huge loses. i hated the garcia for jeremy reed trade cuz i think reed's gonna be a stud soon. but now with a ring, i don't think its that bad of a trade.

[iWiN4PreP]

GREAT TRADE.

 

hell, what a beautiful trade.

 

Vazquez as fifth starter gives so much options, and we didnt give up s***.

 

we gave up 45 year old elduqe and his large ass contract.

we gave up vizciano who wasnt bad, wasnt good.

we gave up a prospect. which we have plenty of.

 

who cares about chris young when you can win world serie(s)?

[Fotop]

I don't really mean to rehash the specifics, but disregarding the "buT WE DiDnT neEd a StARTeR!@111" defense there's no reason to not like this deal. Besides, with recent Garland developments I'm glad KW has gotten aggresive in finding a replacement...so in that sense we kinda do need a starter.

 

But none of that is either here nor there. We traded two highly expendable, arguably overpaid, major leaguers and a quality prospect for a proven major league starter with quality stuff. Period.

 

Is Chris Young a good prospect? Of course, but name one prospect KW has traded that has come back to bite him in the ass. Right. It's a loss for our farm system, but really prospects like Young DO get traded. Moving on... (This is nothing against, Young...all signs point to him being a quality major leaguer, but I'd rather defer to our front office in regards to prospects)

 

I think the Thome trade and this trade exemplify a quality philosophy for our ballclub. Granted, I have no idea where the payroll is going to, but using practically "selling" prospects to put the other team on the hook for payroll is a quality tactic. Given the percentage of prospect players that pan out, this is a high reward, low risk strategy. KW gets proven, major league players for half price and doesn't have to move any key players off the major league club. With the reduced contract rates, he could always turn around and deal them if they don't work out...and if they do work out, well then we've just added 200+ IP and 40HRs.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I like prospects just as much as the next guy but I like maximizing value more. I think prospect value while they're in the minors is under-utilized...I mean we could have had a ton for Borchard when he was in the minors. When prospects hit the majors, their value gets hurt unless they start producing. It seems as though potential is something that is a bit overvalued in the market, and KW is just selling high and buying low on proven, major league talent with albatross contracts. However, by selling high on prospects he's hedging his risk by reducing his exposure in regards to the financial committments to the players he's getting in return...albatross contracts no more.

 

Hate to boil this down into a financial philosophy discussion but I just got out of my securities final and I think the bigger picture here about financial flexibilty is the key to Kenny's success.

[WHarris1]

Does anyone think Javier Vasquez is half the pitcher Jon Garland is?  I don't.  In fact, I think it is pretty clear that Javier Vasquez isn't a match for any of our top 5 pitchers, including Brandon McCarthy.  He was 11-15 in the National League, which always improves pitchers' numbers because they don't have to pitch to a DH. 

Basing a pitcher on his record when he played for one of the worst teams in baseball. Ok.

 

Garland isn't like a million times better than Javy as you said. They are very different pitchers and I don't see how can you possibly call JG way better.

 

JV will pitch more similar to his Monteal days than the NYY/AZ days, JMO.

Edited December 14, 2005 by WHarris1

[BHAMBARONS]

GREAT TRADE.

 

hell, what a beautiful trade.

 

we gave up a prospect. which we have plenty of.

 

who cares about chris young when you can win world serie(s)?

 

 

So we have a lot of 40/40 prospects in the minors

[BaseballNick]

Our glut of outfield talent is our greatest strength, and that enables us to pursue proven major league talent like Vazquez, Thome, and possibly Tejada. I don't know why some of you are complaining about what we are "losing" because no one knows what we are losing except for an aging/unreliable arm in Duque, and a last resort BP arm in Vizcaino. We know Young can perform at AA, but in all seriousness, he has no place to play on this team now, and probably not for a few years at the earliest.

 

I don't think KW is going to go into the season with 6 SPs, leading me to believe a package of Garland and prospects are going to be sent to TB, BAL, or HOU for Crawford, Tejada, or at worst Willie Taveras.

 

We need to stop doubting Kenny. If he hasn't earned your trust by now, then maybe you and I were watching 2 different teams last year because the one KW assembled last year was pretty damn impressive.

[iWiN4PreP]

agreed with baseballnick

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(BHAMBARONS @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 09:02 PM)

So we have a lot of 40/40 prospects in the minors

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

40/40? You're talking out of your ass. How many 40/40 guys are there in the history of baseball. Calm down a little bit. Does he have both speed and power? Yes, but 40/40 is a damn big statement.

 

40/40 club

 

Jose Canseco, 42 home runs and 40 stolen bases in 1988 - steroids

Barry Bonds, 42 home runs and 40 stolen bases in 1996 - steroids?

Alex Rodriguez, 42 home runs and 46 stolen bases in 1998

Edited December 14, 2005 by southsideirish

[RME JICO]

Does anyone think Javier Vasquez is half the pitcher Jon Garland is?  I don't.  In fact, I think it is pretty clear that Javier Vasquez isn't a match for any of our top 5 pitchers, including Brandon McCarthy.  He was 11-15 in the National League, which always improves pitchers' numbers because they don't have to pitch to a DH. 

 

Vazquez has the potential to be a lot better than Garland. Their numbers match up fairly good except that Vazquez stikeouts out more batters. Remember before this season Garland had never won more than 12 games. We all hope that Jon has turned the corner, but before this season he was a 5th pitcher, 4th at best.

 

Garland

2004 - 12-11, 4.89 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, .269 BAA, 113 Ks, 76 BBs, 34 HRs, 217 IP

 

Vazquez in AL

2004 - 14-10, 4.91 ERA, 1.29 WHIP, .255 BAA, 150 Ks, 60 BBs, 33 HRs, 198 IP

 

Also, Vazquez has a higher ceiling: 241 K's in 2003 against 57 BBs in 230 IPs, 3.24 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, .229 BAA

 

Vazquez also has 19 CG's in 256 starts compared to Jon's 5 CG's in 159 started.

 

So how is really a better pitcher?

[White Sox Josh]

40/40? You're talking out of your ass. How many 40/40 guys are there in the history of baseball. Calm down a little bit. Does he have both speed and power? Yes, but 40/40 is a damn big statement.

let's see how young does in the MLB. He might be a huge bust for all we know.

[Rowand44]

If KW now turns around and trades 18-game winner 26-year old Jon Garland then he will have made things worse. 

 

 

Jon Garlands age right now means absolutely nothing to us. It's fantastic that he's 26 but he's a goner after next year anyways so it does not matter how old he is.

[RME JICO]

Vazquez is only 29, it is not like he is 34 or 35. He is not replacing Garland in the starting rotation, he is replacing Hernandez.

 

You can also look at it this way if Garland goes:

 

Vazquez (29) replaces Hernandez (40ish)

McCarthy (22) replaces Garland (26)

 

So the Sox get considerably younger.

Edited December 14, 2005 by WinninUgly

[mike12345]

This was a great trade considering we arent looking to build or get younger. Vazquez has potential to be a good 2-3 pitcher.

 

As for Garland, I say we trade him. His stock will never be higher. I know he had a great year last year, but who honestly thinks he will ever come close to those numbers again. I certainly dont.

 

El Duque is done. He wont last more than 2 months next season.

 

Vizcaino was decent, but nothing special. I think we can bring up Bajeneru or go out and get another reliever to replace Vizcaino.

 

Young has been playing well, but he is a prospect. There is no garauntee on how he will do and he isnt a cant miss prospect like a Francouer or someone of that caliber. I think a lot of people who oppose this trade value prospects too highly.

 

I also think we are still on the verge of making a big move. I really think Garland is going somewhere like Texas,Tampa or Baltimore.

[RME JICO]

I also think we are still on the verge of making a big move. I really think Garland is going somewhere like Texas,Tampa or Baltimore.

Maybe Crawford from TB or Wilkerson from TEX?

[SoxFan1]

I just don't get what the direction of the bullpen is...

[Kalapse]

I just don't get what the direction of the bullpen is...

We just got rid of the two worst pitchers we had in the pen.

[WHarris1]

I just don't get what the direction of the bullpen is...

Vizcaino is nothing special, easily replaceable

[juevos]

where is everyone getting this tejada to the sox rumor from? i haven't heard anything, not even a whimper on this. but then again, i never heard the vasquez to the sox either. please elaborate.

 

thanks

[SoxFan1]

IMMSMC, our bullpen looks like:

 

McCarthy

Cotts

Politte

Hermanson

Jenks

[Rowand44]

I was a little sad getting rid of viz but to be honest it won't be that hard to find a suitable replacement for him.

[WHarris1]

I was a little sad getting rid of viz but to be honest it won't be that hard to find a suitable replacement for him.

B

A

J

[SnB]

I was a little sad getting rid of viz but to be honest it won't be that hard to find a suitable replacement for him.

 

 

 

 

yeah that's right, i went there.

[greasywheels121]

I was a little sad getting rid of viz but to be honest it won't be that hard to find a suitable replacement for him.

 

I can't believe you didnt have a Viz sig.