The Doom and Gloom

[YASNY]

and with that, i totally agree with what you are saying. i have no problem trading these prospects, if they were the final piece of the puzzle to build or in this case keep the sox on top. lets not trade all of our prospects, what do have left when 3 yrs down the road.

 

i love the trades b/c kw was agressive and address sox needs to keep us on top. all i said and asked, did we give up too much.

 

when was the last time the sox made a trade and we were the winners of the trade. let not include this offseason.

 

Ok. we won't include this offseason. however, we will include this most recent post season. So many have panned every trade KW has made, saying we "overpaid" on each and every one of them. I see one thing ... RESULTS. That tells me so many don't have a clue.

 

I rest my case.

[Rowand44]

But the Vasquez trade leaves me scratching my head.  And it is not so much Kenny Williams I have criticism for, it is the Sox fans on this website who want to just dump Jon Garland now.  To that I think -- what ungrateful, and uneducated, fans. 

 

Vasquez is no match for Garland as a pitcher, and had we had Javier instead of Jon last year, we'd still be singing the second place blues. 

 

 

Vazquez is no match for Jon Garland yet he has better career numbers. Working miracles was getting a guy who couldn't throw a strike to become our best pitcher, getting a man who had previous seasons comparable to some league aces to return to that form isn't a miracle. To you I think--what an ungrateful, and uneducated fan.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Rowand44

[Controlled Chaos]

Attention please Soxtalkers........you have not seen this before and may never see it again.........

I'm giving a          to a post created by LCR.......AND  a nomination for post of the month.

/let the apocalypse commence.

Put me in this group!!!

 

Absolutely great post LCR!!

[shakes]

when was the last time the sox made a trade and we were the winners of the trade. let not include this offseason.

 

Freddy Garcia. Juan Uribe. Joese Contreras. Paul Konerko.

Edited December 15, 2005 by shakes

[lightthematch]

"I am getting so sick of it, I could puke geysers of blood out of my eyes. For f***'s sake, they just won the goddamn World Series. Methinks KW has some idea about what he is doing. He's made excellent moves."

 

 

 

I completely agree and am completely disgusted at the same moment.

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

Attention please Soxtalkers........you have not seen this before and may never see it again.........

I'm giving a          to a post created by LCR.......AND  a nomination for post of the month.

/let the apocalypse commence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too!

 

What is this world coming to?

[LDF]

Ok. we won't include this offseason.  however, we will include this most recent post season.  So many have panned every trade KW has made, saying we "overpaid" on each and every one of them.  I see one thing ... RESULTS.  That tells me so many don't have a clue. 

 

I rest my case.

 

 

and i will say this, in most of all the trades that the sox's have made, most of these beat writers, who have far more access to the baseball scouts, managers, gm and owners have acknowledge that the sox overpaid at the time. hind sight is one thing to make a judgement call, but we need to look at the talent at the time.

[Rowand44]

and i will say this, in most of all the trades that the sox's have made, most of these beat writers, who have far more access to the baseball scouts, managers, gm and owners have acknowledge that the sox overpaid at the time. hind sight is one thing to make a judgement call, but we need to look at the talent at the time.

Is it just a coincidence that every single spect kenny has traded has turned out to be nothing so far? He has an idea of what guys he needs to keep and which guys he needs to get rid of. It really doesnt make sense to judge a trade before the players step on the field, hell..that actually makes no sense at all.

[SnB]

and i will say this, in most of all the trades that the sox's have made, most of these beat writers, who have far more access to the baseball scouts, managers, gm and owners have acknowledge that the sox overpaid at the time. hind sight is one thing to make a judgement call, but we need to look at the talent at the time.

i understand your point, but do you honestly think that KW doesn't know what he's doing? Whatever his mindset is, it seems to be working.....

[zach61]

and with that, i totally agree with what you are saying. i have no problem trading these prospects, if they were the final piece of the puzzle to build or in this case keep the sox on top. lets not trade all of our prospects, what do have left when 3 yrs down the road.

 

i love the trades b/c kw was agressive and address sox needs to keep us on top. all i said and asked, did we give up too much.

 

when was the last time the sox made a trade and we were the winners of the trade. let not include this offseason.

 

So which prospects did we trade that have become stars?

[Harry Chappas]

and i will say this, in most of all the trades that the sox's have made, most of these beat writers, who have far more access to the baseball scouts, managers, gm and owners have acknowledge that the sox overpaid at the time. hind sight is one thing to make a judgement call, but we need to look at the talent at the time.

 

Of these beat writers, scouts, managers, gm's and owners how many have won a World Series? How many recreated a team in one season and won the World Series? How many prod along and never progress? We are getting almost $30M from other teams to field a team. KW works well with other GM's and both teams benefit. The Brewers, Yanks, Arizona, Philadelphia, Rockies, Mariners, Oakland, Anaheim, Mets, Rangers, and Orioles. These are some of the teams we have traded with to field our teams over the last few years and teams that give us money for players.

 

The mode of KW trades are prospects for cash and players, it is that simple. Organizations like the cubs, redsox and yankees will take a risk on huge contract because they have money to burn. KW will not burn money. He will be paying Vazquez what Paul Byrd and Esteban Loiaza are making next year. In order to do this, he had to give up Chris Young. For every Royce Ring and Ryan Wing there is a Lance Broadway and Sean Tracey right around the corner. A year or so back, Chris Young was Anthony Webster and Gio Gonzalez was Chris Honel.

 

I have given up on crying about lost prospects. Tim Hummel, Anthony Webster, and Ryan Wing are where......well two are or were back withe the Sox and the other is free to be had. We draft 60-70 players a year, how many pan out? I'll take a shot on Vazquez and his 6 years of MLB experience over a guy that had a great HALF year in AA.

[kevin57]

"I am getting so sick of it, I could puke geysers of blood out of my eyes.

 

You might want to see a doctor. Could be serious.

[LDF]

In the day and age of baseball we live in, with players coming and going so quick, when you have a chance to capitalize on something, you take it, plain and simple.

 

I was dissipointed to hear Young got delt. Just about as dissipointed as I was when I heard Reed was delt for Garcia. I really dont think it matters if Reed hits .300 for the next ten years. Freddy Garcia pitched an 8 inning shutout in Game four of the World Series, becoming the winning pitcher for a White Sox team that hasn't won the World Series in 88 years.

 

We won the deal.

KW right now is trying to put together a team that can be together for the next 3 years, and see what he can do with it. We basically have a 3 year window to see how much we can get out of this core, and I am all for trading away players that will help us obtain the players that will help us repeate a Series win, or win 2 of 3, or whatever.

 

when the platform of judging the trades is that, i can't win the debate. but did we know for a fact that fg would be soooo valueable of a commondity in winning the series. no, did we hope that some day we would make it to the series, yes, and lets be honest did we have any thoughts that we would make it to the series last season?????

 

i am excited and yes i can say that all the trades kw made, was to put this magical season together. however, are we judging the trades on whether or not we make the series or are we judging the trade based on talent potential.

 

Zach define your defination of "stars". the players kw has traded how many of them are still on major league rosters let alone being a part of a starting role. how many haven't reach their prime yet. we can't judge all players on a yr or 2 after the trades. Reed, Gio and young are the ones i will look at, Francisco something was a contributating factor for his team. lets look at adkins, what has he done for us, or kip wells trades??? if we are going to judge trades judge them

 

having and addressing what we might need is what kw is good at. i will give him that, i even gave him kudo for the royce clayton trade, know why he did it. all i am saying is when kw gets fixated on players, i think we over trade. this past 3 trades, are ones that help out the sox now and next yr, but did we give up too much.

 

imho yes. i will wait to see happen develops in the coming season. i want the sox to build a dynasty, but in order to keep this good fortune going, we are going to need a farm to supplment those trades.

[LDF]

 

so your fnal judgement is based on winning the series. what happen if we don't make it, how do you make a judgement call.

 

you are justifing the trade on winning the series

[KevHead0881]

For those who think we keep getting the losing end of trades, I think it comes from the desire to have us rip off our trading partners. And this is an unrealistic way to operate a team in our situation.

 

I look at most of Kenny's trades and think that the deals worked out great for both teams. Nothing wrong with that. While it would be nice to get the players we want for almost nothing, it doesn't work that easily. Most of the deals we make are for players who's contracts aren't expiring and/or for players whom the other organization involved will pay a substantial amount of his contract. Since we work with a limited payroll, this is a completely necessary strategy. And in order to get players who are indeed under multi-year contracts, or to get another team to pay for a good chunk of that contract, you'll have to give up some good talent, if not major league ready players.

 

Now, one of the few examples where we gave up minimal talent for a top player was the Bartolo Colon trade. Colon's contract was expiring at the end of the year, and if I remember correctly, the Expos didn't pick up any of his contract. Thus, all we had to give up was Rocky Biddle and some spare parts. Its easier to be the clear cut winner of these deals, but there is still enormous risk involved. In Colon's case, we lost out thanks to his departure at the end of the year.

 

There are plenty of examples of this. Take the Cubs for example. They totally fleeced the Pirates in the Aramis Ramirez trade, but would have had to give up a whole lot more if Ramirez was under contract past that year. Now, they have money falling out of their ears, so their chances of resigning these guys are pretty good, thus why they have no problem making trades that have this risk of an expiring contract. This is a luxury we don't necessarily have.

 

The point is, in order to get the guys we need to win, and to do it for long-term results at an affordable cost, we have to give up more talent then preferred. You can look at almost all of KW's moves, and its obvious that all these things are taken into account. And as nice as it would be to completely fleece other teams with our deals, I think our way of doing things works out pretty nicely as well.

Edited December 15, 2005 by KevHead0881

[J-MAN]

agree.  teams hold on to players too long or fall in love with them.  remember Garry Gaetti on the north side???????  i never want to be in that company.  ALL HAIL KENNY WILLIAMS.

[LDF]

For those who think we keep getting the losing end of trades, I think it comes from the desire to have us rip off our trading partners.  And this is an unrealistic way to operate a team in our situation.

 

I look at most of Kenny's trades and think that the deals worked out great for both teams.  Nothing wrong with that.  While it would be nice to get the players we want for almost nothing, it doesn't work that easily.  Most of the deals we make are for players who's contracts aren't expiring and/or for players whom the other organization involved will pay a substantial amount of his contract.  Since we work with a limited payroll, this is a completely necessary strategy.  And in order to get players who are indeed under multi-year contracts, or to get another team to pay for a good chunk of that contract, you'll have to give up some good talent, if not major league ready players.

 

Now, one of the few examples where we gave up minimal talent for a top player was the Bartolo Colon trade.  Colon's contract was expiring at the end of the year, and if I remember correctly, the Expos didn't pick up any of his contract.  Thus, all we had to give up was Rocky Biddle and some spare parts.  Its easier to be the clear cut winner of these deals, but there is still enormous risk involved.  In Colon's case, we lost out thanks to his departure at the end of the year.

 

There are plenty of examples of this.  Take the Cubs for example.  They totally fleeced the Pirates in the Aramis Ramirez trade, but would have had to give up a whole lot more if Ramirez was under contract past that year.  Now, they have money falling out of their ears, so their chances of resigning these guys are pretty good, thus why they have no problem making trades that have this risk of an expiring contract.  This is a luxury we don't necessarily have.

 

The point is, in order to get the guys we need to win, and to do it for long-term results at an affordable cost, we have to give up more talent then preferred.  You can look at almost all of KW's moves, and its obvious that all these things are taken into account.  And as nice as it would be to completely fleece other teams with our deals, I think our way of doing things works out pretty nicely as well.

 

 

 

a great point.

 

but i would like to fleecing side a little more than getting fleece ourselves.

 

that being said, i guess i have to serrle for us winning the series.

[YASNY]

 

a great point.

 

but i would like to fleecing side a little more than getting fleece ourselves.

 

that being said, i guess i have to serrle for us winning the series. 

 

All in all, I can't see where we have been getting fleeced. We have given up unproven players for proven players with some risk involved. Will Thome be healthy? Will Vazquez regain his form? Maybe, maybe not. Will Yound and gio be starts 5 years from now? Same answer as above.

[Dam8610]

I don't post a whole lot in PHT mainly because of threads like "The Evil Kenny Williams" and the numerous ones in the past.  Every move KW made was lambasted & if he didn't make a move he was lambasted.  It was like him walking on water and then getting yelled at for not swimming.

 

From our future HOF catcher Miguel Olivo being traded to get our mediocre starter Freddy Garcia...to whining that all KW got was Blum during the midseason trade deadline...to the recent doom and gloom about El Duque getting traded for Vazquez...

 

I am getting so sick of it, I could puke geysers of blood out of my eyes.  For f***'s sake, they just won the goddamn World Series.  Methinks KW has some idea about what he is doing.  He's made excellent moves.

 

While it angers me a little bit that Duque left, I just remembered his forays as a starter earlier last season.  If I wanted to see four balls that often, I'd be out renting XXX gay porn.

 

Rowand leaving was bad but you can't make an omlete without breaking a few eggs.  With a hurt Frank Thomas being a liability & Kong being a FA, KW had to shore up some much needed power in the lineup.  The fact that Thome then went and assisted us in getting Kong (and much needed protection in the lineup) only makes our lineup that much more devastating -- plus how funny is it that we screwed the Angels out of two major power bats?    Not to mention the fact that the minors are stocked with outfielders coming out the yin yang so Rowand is replaceable.

 

I think Vazquez will find his form.  Look at the job that Cooper has done with players that have the raw, untapped potential & getting them to perform well (Garland, The Count, etc.)

 

So please people...think before posting because I (and I'm sure tons of others) don't appreciate the doom and gloom.  Crack open a beer, realize the Sox won the Series, drink and then realize that -- despite the whining, we've got another season ahead of us in a few months because with some of the bile being thrown around here, I almost thought I missed all 162 games of the '06 season.

 

/end.rant.

 

Let me just say...

 

BEST POST EVER!