NBA Eff. Ratings

[rangercal]

How bad does that trade for tyson 4 years ago look now ? :headshake

 

We traded a player who is Ahead of Duncan, Garnett, James, Bryant and Mcgrady in The Efficiency ratings.

 

expect Brand to keep those #'s up now that he has a real team around him.

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/s...er%2fstatistics

[whitesoxfan101]

The Brand for Tyson trade pretty much looks just like it did 4 years ago the day it happened: horrible. IMO it was the worst move Krause ever made (which is saying something).

[Dick Allen]

It was the dumbest trade of all-time. It made no sense from the get-go. There are bad trades, but at least with most you can see some sort of logic with them. This was stupid from the time it was official.

[Kyyle23]

Krause had no plan or method of creating another team once Michael Jordan left. Its really a shame what he did to the Bulls and what shape he left them in, both financially and competitively. Everyone said he was this genius, but I really think that if he had a mere superstar, and not the best player on the planet, he would have been exposed and fired long before he amassed 6 titles. His experimental drafting of europeans was just ghastly, poorly informed, and had a ripple effect on the Bulls after the last championship. So many wasted picks on players that never even made it to the states to play! I always thought to myself, "Why waste a pick now on a guy who may never suit up for your team? There are other, NBA ready rookies right there for the taking!" But nope, every year, Krause would gauranteed draft 3 guys I never heard of, and never made it in the NBA.

[nitetrain8601]

Meh, I'll disagree with you guys. Tyson was a stud in high school who never improved due to horrible coaching and a weak frame and non-work over the summer. The idea of having two seven footers on your front line for years to come(Baby Shaq & Baby Garnett as some called them) was too good of an idea to pass up. Let's be honest here, with Brand we would've been stuck in mediocrity. We would've been too good to get the players we needed around him(because of the draft) and we probably would've stuck with coaching like Tim Floyd who Brand made look better than he ever was.

 

The idea was great, but Tyson and Eddy never panned out(like they were supposed to) because of a strong lack of good coaching and other reasons as well. Brand would've never made this city a winner. I guarentee that.

 

Did we lose the trade? Hell yeah we did, but it wasn't a stupid trade when you put yourself in the mind of Krause at the time.

 

C-Eddy Curry

PF-Tyson Chandler

SF-Eddie Robinson(who had tons of talent; even the Spurs wanted to sign him when he was a FA)

SG-Trenton Hassell(he was at the moment)

PG-Jamal Crawford(has stud potential, but again, hasn't been able to put it all together)

[Kyyle23]

Meh, I'll disagree with you guys. Tyson was a stud in high school who never improved due to horrible coaching and a weak frame and non-work over the summer. The idea of having two seven footers on your front line for years to come(Baby Shaq & Baby Garnett as some called them) was too good of an idea to pass up. Let's be honest here, with Brand we would've been stuck in mediocrity. We would've been too good to get the players we needed around him(because of the draft) and we probably would've stuck with coaching like Tim Floyd who Brand made look better than he ever was.

 

The idea was great, but Tyson and Eddy never panned out(like they were supposed to) because of a strong lack of good coaching and other reasons as well. Brand would've never made this city a winner. I guarentee that.

 

Did we lose the trade? Hell yeah we did, but it wasn't a stupid trade when you put yourself in the mind of Krause at the time.

 

C-Eddy Curry

PF-Tyson Chandler

SF-Eddie Robinson(who had tons of talent; even the Spurs wanted to sign him when he was a FA)

SG-Trenton Hassell(he was at the moment)

PG-Jamal Crawford(has stud potential, but again, hasn't been able to put it all together)

 

No, I will disagree on you on the basis that the NBA game isnt about possibilities and potential, it is about winning and results. Krause tried to play a college roster against the big boys, with a college coach who had no idea of how to coach up rookies(which I still am amazed at). The lineup you have listed had three players under 20 at the time of the trade/draft(remember, Crawford was 18 when he got drafted), and Krauses handpicked coach wouldnt play them, and couldnt coach them. Krause's mistakes in coaching, drafting, and signing free agents were all glaring when that lineup actually hit the floor. They had what, 3 years in a row where they didnt win more than 16 games?

[Wedge]

I had the impression that at the time of the trade that Elton Brand really, really wanted to get out of Chicago. I'm glad that he's having success now. It certainly would be nice to have a post player like Brand on this team right now, but when Chandler is healthy, he is pretty good at filling a role as an energy/hustle type player.

[whitesoxfan101]

Trading a PROVEN NBA 4 for a HS kid that COULD be a really good 5 will never make sense to me. Ever.

[hammerhead johnson]

Brand is an all star, but Tyson could be the top shot-altering force in this league and one of the best rebounders when he peaks within the next few years. I get tired of preaching this s***, though.

 

Just to reiterate for like the millionth time, common themes in sports for championship squads:

 

Baseball: Defense (Primarily Pitching)

Football: Defense and a defensive style of offense (rushing)

Hockey: Defense (Goalies rule all)

Basketball: Defense (Primarily shot-altering big men, not dudes pushing 6'8)

 

This s*** ain't rocket science. Look at the history of every one of the major four sports. Defense prevails in the vast majority of cases.

 

If you're a student of sports, you know what it takes to win. Tyson could be the central force behind a championship squad at some point. Brand will never be that player, despite the impressive numbers. He doesn't have a sizeable defensive impact on a game unless you think that stat sheets reveal as much? You don't look at paper, you evaluate players with your eyes. Worst trade in Bulls history LOL? Give me a f***ing break.

 

That said, I'd love to have Elton Brand on my team, but I think Tyson has a chance to be a legendary defender. I'll take that over Brand's upside 365 days a year. Keep your scoring. I know that it's entertaining to watch. I'm just interested in winning championships -- silly me.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Brand is an all star, but Tyson could be the top shot-altering force in this league and one of the best rebounders when he peaks within the next few years.  I get tired of preaching this s***, though. 

 

 

Just to reiterate for like the millionth time, common themes in sports for championship squads:

 

Baseball: Defense (Primarily Pitching)

Football: Defense and a defensive style of offense (rushing)

Hockey: Defense (Goalies rule all)

Basketball: Defense (Primarily shot-altering big men, not dudes pushing 6'8)

 

This s*** ain't rocket science.  Look at the history of every one of the major four sports.  Defense prevails in the vast majority of cases.

 

Brand is a much better defender. I'd rather have the much better defender and the vasty better scorer over a player who will never achieve the potential you seem to think he will.

 

You must really enjoy watching tyson get manhandled by stronger players, which is every PF and C in the NBA. Please don't try and say that tyson can cover Duncan and KG again. He can't...at all...never.

 

If you're a student of sports, you know what it takes to win.  Tyson could be the central force behind a championship squad at some point. 

 

 

Brand will never be that player, despite the impressive numbers.  He doesn't have a sizeable defensive impact on a game unless you think that stat sheets reveal as much?  You don't look at paper, you evaluate players with your eyes.  Worst trade in Bulls history LOL?  Give me a f***ing break.

 

Don't give me that bulls***. I've seen them both play this year a lot.

 

Brand is so far ahead of tyson it's not even funny.

 

That said, I'd love to have Elton Brand on my team, but I think Tyson has a chance to be a legendary defender.  I'll take that over Brand's upside 365 days a year.  Keep your scoring.  I know that it's entertaining to watch.  I'm just interested in winning championships -- silly me.

 

Sooner or later you're gonna have to get tired of preaching someone's potential.

 

At this point it would be a miracle to have a healthy tyson giving his usual subpar contributions.

 

I don't know where you get the idea that tyson gives a team a better chance for a championship, especially with the way Brand is carrying the Clippers. Please watch him play and then still tell me you think tyson is better, in any facet, including defense.

 

Potential and upside does not win games.

 

 

You preach that garbage bulls*** so much that I'm starting to think you actually believe it, hammerhead.

 

Not only is Brand an offensive force, but he's also a much greater than defender than tyson will ever be.

 

Your blind tyson-luv is downright scary. I'm baffled why you overrate him so damn much yet still consider yourself as someone who knows basketball.

Edited December 15, 2005 by SleepyWhiteSox

[Balta1701]

Trading a PROVEN NBA 4 for a HS kid that COULD be a really good 5 will never make sense to me.  Ever.

Vlade Divac for a draft pick that turned into Kobe Bryant.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Vlade Divac for a draft pick that turned into Kobe Bryant.

 

How old was Vlade at the time of the trade and how old was Brand?

[hammerhead johnson]

Brand is a much better defender.  I'd rather have the much better defender and the vasty better scorer over a player who will never achieve the potential you seem to think he will.

 

If you think that Brand has the tools to be the better defensive player when all is said and done, I can't argue with you. We're talking about a 7'1 player with freakish agility, leaping ability, and wingspan vs. a guy who is barely 6'8 with not much of a wingspan, limited leaping ability, etc. Have some foresight. Of course it's all about potential and upside. Now, why you're emphasizing this is beyond my understanding. This is the NBA. It's always about how good a guy can be in the future. We're talking about a guy who just turned 23. Otherwise, there wouldn't be anything to discuss. You want me to sit here all day and point out the obvious?

 

Brand can't take over games defensively, nor will he ever be able to. He just doesn't have that type of skillset. I thought that was obvious, but I dunno, maybe it's just me.

 

I like Brand too, but I'll go with the guy who has a chance to be a legendary defender. I know that you don't understand, so don't even bother responding.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

If you think that Brand has the tools to be the better defensive player when all is said and done, I can't argue with you.  We're talking about a 7'1 player with freakish agility, leaping ability, and wingspan vs. a guy who is barely 6'8 with not much of a wingspan, limited leaping ability, etc.  Have some foresight.  Of course it's all about potential and upside.  Now, why you're emphasizing this is beyond my understanding.  This is the NBA.  It's always about how good a guy can be in the future.  We're talking about a guy who just turned 23.  Otherwise, there wouldn't be anything to discuss.  You want me to sit here all day and point out the obvious? 

 

Brand can't take over games defensively, nor will he ever be able to.  He just doesn't have that type of skillset.  I thought that was obvious, but I dunno, maybe it's just me. 

 

I like Brand too, but I'll go with the guy who has a chance to be a legendary defender.  I know that you don't understand, so don't even bother responding.

 

Around what year are you expecting tyson to "break out"?

[SleepyWhiteSox]

And you also seem to underestimate basketball IQ, which always seperates success from potential, in your attempt to make tyson sound like he's going to be some sort of defensive monster someday.

 

At this point, with all the stupid fouls and mistakes, complete lack of knowledge on offense (he looks f***in' clueless), and inability to keep himself in basketball shape, I'm not ready to say that tyson does not have the knowledge to be as great as you say.

 

Brand looks much smarter on the court to me, along with being the much better overall player.

 

 

Bird sucks because he wasn't athletic, right?

[hammerhead johnson]

Around what year are you expecting tyson to "break out"? 

 

I'm not a fortune teller, but I know defensive upside when I see it. It's just a matter of time with Tyson. Now, you seem like you have a head on your shoulders. I don't know why the concept of defensive upside is so foreign to you. Would it be fair to say that you're not really much a long-term thinker? Did you have even half a clue as to what Artest was capable of? How about Hassell? I know that you're probably going to lie to me.

[hammerhead johnson]

And you also seem to underestimate basketball IQ, which always seperates success from potential, in your attempt to make tyson sound like he's going to be some sort of defensive monster someday.

 

At this point, with all the stupid fouls and mistakes, complete lack of knowledge on offense (he looks f***in' clueless), and inability to keep himself in basketball shape, I'm not ready to say that tyson does not have the knowledge to be as great as you say.

 

Brand looks much smarter on the court to me, along with being the much better overall player.

Bird sucks because he wasn't athletic, right?   

 

I'm not underestimating basketball IQ. Tyson still has plenty to learn. For the love of Christ, he is only 23 years old. Remember when I listed those players that I thought were lacking in the brains department, and you said quote "I'm not sure that I agree with some of those players being on that list". And now you're trying to tell me something about basketball IQ? A guy who likes Steve Francis, Drew Gooden, Bonzi Wells, etc trying to tell me something?

 

Bird was perhaps the most clutch player in basketball history. Where in the f*** does he enter into a conversation in regards to defensive upside based on tools?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Tyson has taken a step back from last year. Nobody can really deny that. Is he healthy? Did not working out like he usually does in the off-season until after he signed his new contract hurt him? Is it because he's playing out of position? I'm with Hammerhead on the thinking that once Tyson does figure it out, and don't ask me when, I have no clue when he will, he'll be a real force. Offensively, he's always gonna blow. So people may as well just give up on the idea of him ever being a scorer. His calling card is gonna be rebounding, shotblocking and being a defensive force ala Ben Wallace.

 

Elton Brand is having a fantastic year. He's my MVP to this point. And it FINALLY looks like an Elton Brand led team is gonna make the playoffs. But don't let those eff rating blind you. He's not as good as Duncan, KG or Shaq when he's healthy.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I'm not a fortune teller, but I know defensive upside when I see it.  It's just a matter of time with Tyson.  Now, you seem like you have a head on your shoulders.  I don't know why the concept of defensive upside is so foreign to you.  Would it be fair to say that you're not really much a long-term thinker?  Did you have even half a clue as to what Artest was capable of?  How about Hassell?  I know that you're probably going to lie to me.

 

I liked them both and was pissed to see the Bulls let them go.

 

But Artest is a headcase that we shouldn't even get into. He seems to be intent on approaching T.O. status.

 

Anyways, Artest can score and is much stronger than tyson will ever be.

 

I was very pissed to see all of those guys go...Brand, Artest, Brad Miller, Donyell, even AD. Their talent looked much better than tyson's. Brand and Artest's potential looked much greater than tyson's does right now.

[hammerhead johnson]

Tyson has taken a step back from last year.  Nobody can really deny that.  Is he healthy?  Did not working out like he usually does in the off-season until after he signed his new contract hurt him?  Is it because he's playing out of position?  I'm with Hammerhead on the thinking that once Tyson does figure it out,  and don't ask me when,  I have no clue when he will,  he'll be a real force.  Offensively,  he's always gonna blow.  So people may as well just give up on the idea of him ever being a scorer.  His calling card is gonna be rebounding,  shotblocking and being a defensive force ala Ben Wallace.

 

Tyson is gonna be a notoriously slow starter in the short term, IMO. He did the same thing last year. But as of now, he's really starting to roll. Have you watched the past few games? He has been a joy to watch. He hasn't even tapped into his potential yet. Scary thought, is it not?

[qwerty]

If you think that Brand has the tools to be the better defensive player when all is said and done, I can't argue with you.  We're talking about a 7'1 player with freakish agility, leaping ability, and wingspan vs. a guy who is barely 6'8 with not much of a wingspan, limited leaping ability, etc.  Have some foresight.  Of course it's all about potential and upside.  Now, why you're emphasizing this is beyond my understanding.  This is the NBA.  It's always about how good a guy can be in the future.  We're talking about a guy who just turned 23.  Otherwise, there wouldn't be anything to discuss.  You want me to sit here all day and point out the obvious? 

 

Brand can't take over games defensively, nor will he ever be able to.  He just doesn't have that type of skillset.  I thought that was obvious, but I dunno, maybe it's just me. 

 

I like Brand too, but I'll go with the guy who has a chance to be a legendary defender.  I know that you don't understand, so don't even bother responding.

 

Brand can take games over defensively...and he does. He is one of the best big man defenders in the nba and i don't give a s*** that he is 6'8, he plays like he is a seven footer. His defense is finally getting noticed now that he is having the year he is having. Much like people are finally realizing dirk is an above average defender... not a s***ty defender like so many have claimed in years past.

 

As much as i like chandler i would take brand's defense currently over anything chandler has done defensively in the past. Offensively it is an obvious no brainer. I know you and other say ''defensive legends'' don't have to have offensive skills... but this dude is such a pansy. He won't even dunk the ball four out of five times. What is even worse he has no body control and flails around while attemping a lay-up ( that should have been dunked).

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I'm not underestimating basketball IQ.  Tyson still has plenty to learn.  For the love of Christ, he is only 23 years old.  Remember when I listed those players that I thought were lacking in the brains department, and you said quote "I'm not sure that I agree with some of those players being on that list".  And now you're trying to tell me something about basketball IQ?  A guy who likes Steve Francis, Drew Gooden, Bonzi Wells, etc trying to tell me something? 

 

Bird was perhaps the most clutch player in basketball history.  Where in the f*** does he enter into a conversation in regards to defensive upside based on tools?

 

I like those players because they're on my fantasy team?

 

Wow, that's an idiotic way of trying to tell me what I like and dislike. I play to win and have to absolutely hate a player not to take him. Notice what place I'm in so far and what place you're in.

 

And by the way, Bonzi is looking good in Sacto. He's been rebounding very well for a guard, and that 3-pointer to win the game the other night looked good.

[hammerhead johnson]

Brand can take games over defensively...and he does. He is one of the best big man defenders in the nba and i don't give a s*** that he is 6'8, he plays like he is a seven footer. His defense is finally getting noticed now that he is having the year he is having. Much like people are finally realizing dirk is an above average defender... not a s***ty defender like so many have claimed in years past.

 

As much as i like chandler i would take brand's defense currently over anything chandler has done defensively in the past. Offensively it is an obvious no brainer. I know you and other say ''defensive legends'' don't have to have offensive skills... but this dude is such a pansy. He won't even dunk the ball four out of five times. What is even worse he has no body control and flails around while attemping a lay-up ( that should have been dunked).

 

You really think that Brand can take over games defensively? I guess that we'd have to agree to disagree. In Brand, I see a guy who has the right attitude, and I think that he's an effective defender, but having the ability to take over games defensively is beyond rare in this league, and Brand just doesn't have the tools as far as I can tell. You know what I'm saying. Height, wingspan, leaping ability, etc. Tyson has all of those things plus work ethic and a mean streak to go with it. Eventually, he'll be up to speed in terms of basketball IQ. He didn't attend a Duke or North Carolina for 4 years. Brand has had one hell of a head start in establishing himself.

 

And I know what you're saying about Tyson not going up strong for dunks and what not. Can't defend him there.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

In Brand, I see a guy who has the right attitude, and I think that he's an effective defender, but having the ability to take over games defensively is beyond rare in this league, and Brand just doesn't have the tools as far as I can tell.  You know what I'm saying.  Height, wingspan, leaping ability, etc.  Tyson has all of those things plus work ethic and a mean streak to go with it. 

 

Pssst...tyson is missing a very important tool...strength.

 

I'll change my tune if he ever seriously bulks up, but I'm not holding my breath for that one. Like I said, nowadays it's looking like a miracle just to have him healthy.

 

And players with strong work ethics don't come into a season out of shape.

[hammerhead johnson]

I like those players because they're on my fantasy team?   

 

Wow, that's an idiotic way of trying to tell me what I like and dislike.  I play to win and have to absolutely hate a player not to take him.  Notice what place I'm in so far and what place you're in.   

 

And by the way, Bonzi is looking good in Sacto.  He's been rebounding very well for a guard, and that 3-pointer to win the game the other night looked good.

 

Come on, you know that you like those guys. Don't lie to me.

 

I don't give a f*** about what place you're in. It's fantasy basketball, not reality. And besides, if I'm going to win, I'm going to do it the right way, not with a bunch of strokes. I wouldn't draft Steve Francis, Bonzi Wells, or Drew Gooden if my life depended on it. I'd rather grab guys before they become something. Boris Diaw, Samuel Dalembert, Zaza Pachulia, David West, Marquis Daniels, etc. That's why fantasy basketball is fun to me. It would absolutely SUCK if I had your team, good God.