My rant

[fathom]

The last two days on this board, I've seen some of the strangest posts I think I've ever seen on this site. Here's one question I have for my fellow Sox fans: WHY ARE YOU SCARED OF KENNY WILLIAMS IMPROVING THIS TEAM?

Now, I know I'm considered one of the more negative posters on this site. However, I can't believe how upset some people seem to be that KW is breaking up last year's team. Last year's WS winning Sox team was a good mix of talent with great chemistry, and also seemed to be a team of destiny all year. There's absolutely no guarantee that if the same team stayed together for the 2006 season that they would even go to the playoffs. There are many teams that have an amazing season one year, and then the next year, the ball doesn't bounce the same way it did the year before, and injuries happen that hurt the team.

 

KW has made a few major moves that will significantly improve the team in the next year or two. Trust me, with the amount of money that the White Sox are bringing in right now (tickets, merchandise, etc.), there wasn't a chance in hell that JR and KW weren't going to go for the juggular when it comes to building the 2006 Sox team. I find it funny how some posters seem to get mad that we're bringing in these high priced guys like Thome and Vazquez. One question...since when did we worry about the WHITE SOX bringing in high-priced talent? Most of us used to long for the days we could have a high enough payroll to bring in the big contracts of talented players. Since we're not personally paying these contracts, why not just be thrilled that JR is going out of his way to put together an extremely talented team.

 

Another thing that's frustrating me is how people are complaining about losing pieces of our bullpen. Duque, Viz, and Marte were our three worst pitchers BY FAR last season (that were on the roster throughout the season). I'm thrilled that they're all gone. Relievers are very inconsistent, and there's no way to predict how they'll be from one year to the next. You know what the best solution to a potentially weak bullpen is? That's right, have a great starting pitching staff.

 

The only criticism that I'll have for KW is if he trades Garland, and doesn't receive high value for him. KW has given up some valuable pieces this offseason (Young and Gio) in order to acquire talent. KW has got to make sure that he doesn't negate Garland's potentially trade value just cause he knows he can't resign him

 

So in closing....enjoy the fact the White Sox won the World Series. Enjoy the fact that KW is making some moves to acquire talented players. This is a hell of a lot better than a few years ago when we were acquiring the likes of Royce Clayton and Todd Ritchie.

Edited December 16, 2005 by fathom

[tonyho7476]

Amen brother

[S720]

The last two days on this board, I've seen some of the strangest posts I think I've ever seen on this site.  Here's one question I have for my fellow Sox fans:  WHY ARE YOU SCARED OF KENNY WILLIAMS IMPROVING THIS TEAM? 

    Now, I know I'm considered one of the more negative posters on this site. However, I can't believe how upset some people seem to be that KW is breaking up last year's team.  Last year's WS winning Sox team was a good mix of talent with great chemistry, and also seemed to be a team of destiny all year.  There's absolutely no guarantee that if the same team stayed together for the 2006 season that they would even go to the playoffs.  There are many teams that have an amazing season one year, and then the next year, the ball doesn't bounce the same way it did the year before, and injuries happen that hurt the team.

    KW has made a few major moves that will significantly improve the team in the next year or two.  Trust me, with the amount of money that the White Sox are bringing in right now (tickets, merchandise, etc.), there wasn't a chance in hell that JR and KW weren't going to go for the juggular when it comes to building the 2006 Sox team.  I find it funny how some posters seem to get mad that we're bringing in these high priced guys like Thome and Vazquez.  One question...since when did we worry about the WHITE SOX bringing in high-priced talent?  Most of us used to long for the days we could have a high enough payroll to bring in the big contracts of talented players.  Since we're not personally paying these contracts, why not just be thrilled that JR is going out of his way to put together an extremely talented team.

    Another thing that's frustrating me is how people are complaining about losing pieces of our bullpen.  Duque, Viz, and Marte were our three worst pitchers BY FAR last season (that were on the roster throughout the season).  I'm thrilled that they're all gone.  Relievers are very inconsistent, and there's no way to predict how they'll be from one year to the next.  You know what the best solution to a potentially weak bullpen is?  That's right, have a great starting pitching staff.

    The only criticism that I'll have for KW is if he trades Garland, and doesn't receive high value for him.  KW has given up some valuable pieces this offseason (Young and Gio) in order to acquire talent.  KW has got to make sure that he doesn't negate Garland's potentially trade value just cause he knows he can't resign him

 

  So in closing....enjoy the fact the White Sox won the World Series.  Enjoy the fact that KW is making some moves to acquire talented players.  This is a hell of a lot better than a few years ago when we were acquiring the likes of Royce Clayton and Todd Ritchie.

 

Fathom, I totally agree with you. As a matter of fact, Steve Stone on the Score also agreed with us.

 

Stone mentioned one of the biggest reasons why it is so difficult for teams to repeat its championship is because of its complacency. He mentioned the Red Sox for example. Because of its lost of starters along with lack of signing good players, the Red Sox could not repeat. He and Murphy on the Score both said that Kenny has done a fabulous job in terms of not giving other teams the CHANCE TO GET BETTER THAN the White Sox over the course of the offseason.

Stone further said in the market where starting pitchers are a rarity, Kenny is in the perfect position to swing a great deal for the White Sox. WOW!!!

 

Folks, I'm starting to feel it. Enjoy the makeover! The 2005 Chicago White Sox Champions are here to stay for few years!

 

To Kenny

[rcpweiner]

Here, here.

 

I'll add one thing: One of the great side effects of all of this activity is that the White Sox are actually getting more national coverage / interest in the team. Sure, most people will scoff at that, and you never want to make a trade just to make a trade, but getting headlines from across the country is something that this organization just hasn't done in the past decade or so (last year, not withstanding).

 

I mean, slowly we are crawling into that top tier of organizations around the Major Leagues. And no, it doesn't happen instantaneously, and it doesn't happen simply because you win a championship (ex: Marlins), but it happens because you stay a consistent winner year after year. And that's what Kenny's doing.

 

Make no mistake about it: this is a business. And getting the national publicity from winning the championship and making huge offseason trades like these is a huge step from a team that, in the past, has been 2nd most important in their own city.

 

That is all.

[Wanne]

Very true. Or the points where people get pissed off with the fact the Kenny is trading away "prospects" to ensure that the Sox stay on top now. The future is now people. I understand that you have to look down the road...but I'd rather live high on the hog now. Kind of like when the Bulls where on there run...everybody loved it then. I still wouldn't trade that time for anything. Kenny is doing what' s best for this team.

[Mplssoxfan]

I haven't read anything else about the Vasquez deal, but I'm thrilled with what KW is doing. He's making intelligent moves which improve the club. It's extremely difficult to win a World Series in this day and age, and to go into next season with the same roster as last year would have been sheer lunacy.

 

When you have a manager who's not afraid to stick with his starters, what do you do? Get durable starters.

[Chisoxfn]

Good post fathom.

[DukeNukeEm]

A

g

r

e

e

d

[TLAK]

I appreciate your rant but feel you underrate the contribution the departed players made.

 

The White Sox traded away or non-tendered 49 HR and 185 RBI from the 2005 team. The players they added hit 16 and 88 last year. Should Thome stay healthy and return to his career average the new guys would be at 49 and 169, plus what ever they pick up from who ever wins the Center Field derby.

 

They traded away a combined 244 innings with a 4.43 ERA in the American League and an 18-18 record. They picked up 216 innings, 4.42 in the National League and an 11-18 record. The White Sox don’t have any proven arms to replace the relief pitchers so projecting the net effect on the pitching is a crap shoot. I think the White Sox are taking a great risk here.

 

I was emotionally attached to the 2005 group, but that’s just my take and anybody else’s take on it is fine with me. But getting past that I’m having a hard time buying into all the love being showered on Kenny Williams.

[jphat007]

spaces between paragraphs please

[DukeNukeEm]

To build on your post I'd like to add that this is the time for us to take back the city.

 

You can say all you want here at Soxtalk about how you like it how it is.. but we all want to Sox to be a Marquee Franchise. And really there is no better time than now, the Cubs are on the butt end of all the cities sports jokes while the White Sox are the toast of the town.

 

If we bring in talent that is fitting of a marquee franchise (Thome, Konerko, our starting rotation) we will continue to make the playoffs. Kenny Williams is setting this team up to take the city back.. and Riensdorf is happy to fund it.

[fathom]

I think the White Sox are taking a great risk here.

 

 

Yes they are. And maybe, just maybe, it's cause JR, KW, and Ozzie realize that changes needed to be made in order to continue to field a championship caliber team. Don't forget, the Indians are a team with a ton of momentum building up in their organization, and they're going to be damn good in the next 3-5 years also.

[DukeNukeEm]

I was emotionally attached to the 2005 group, but that’s just my take and anybody else’s take on it is fine with me.  But getting past that I’m having a hard time buying into all the love being showered on Kenny Williams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Same here.. and if we go on a tear and starting winning the pennant or maybe the series with some consistency the last 2005 group will always be the one that started it all.

[fathom]

spaces between paragraphs please

 

I had tabs for the new paragraphs, but they're didn't carry over on the post.

 

I fixed it, as it was even bothering me to look at it.

Edited December 16, 2005 by fathom

[Rowand44]

  But getting past that I’m having a hard time buying into all the love being showered on Kenny Williams.

Kenny Williams built the team that won us our first world series since 1917, it's really not hard to understand why he's getting showered with love.

[Chisoxfn]

I agree Kenny has taken chances. I've long said if Thome isn't healthy thats a horrid move. If Thome ends up being healthy and putting up two more 40 HR seasons (I can live with the 3rd year being a wash due to injuries simply because two 40 hr seasons would be well worth it).

 

As far as Vazquez goes, I hated giving up Young, especially cause I'm not a vazquez guy. I put faith in Coop and Ozzie working there magic. I hope that with Vazquez in a place he wants to be (and happy) that he'll figure out how to better utilize his stuff. I do think that he's a good starter and I was glad to see us get rid of Duque.

 

The one thing that I'm worried about with next year (aside from injuries) is our bullpen. Its seriously a lot weaker and I love Tracey's stuff but I don't like asking rooks to come in and be a major part of the club right away. It looks like we may be relying on him and Baj. I think both are capable, but you also have Hermy (whose hurt), Politte (coming off a major career year), Jenks (has had arm trouble in the past and has dynomite stuff, but could see a regression), and Cotts (a total horse). Its not the deep pen it once was.

 

If we brought in another good reliever, I'd be a lot happier.

[greg775]

I'm glad he's making moves.

I like the guys we've acquired.

I'm just concerned about losing Young. If he's the stud everybody says I hate to lose the next Mickey Mantle.

I liked Marte and Rowand, too, but I like what we've picked up.

 

I'm glad he's made moves and not stood pat.

[RME JICO]

I appreciate your rant but feel you underrate the contribution the departed players made. 

Great post Fathom!

 

Now, TLAK, you are joking right?

 

You add up the stats of the departed guys and ask how we are going to replace those numbers? For offense, how about with Thome, Anderson, and Mackowiak.

 

Pitching? I know you are really joking there. Marte, Viz, and El Duque? Those are the pitchers we lost. Are you saying that the Sox cannot do better than that? Are you saying that B-Mac alone is not an upgrade from El Duque?

 

I understand you didn't want to break up the team, and no one is taking away what the departed Sox did to win the WS, but that was LAST YEAR.

 

If it wasn't for moves like this the Sox would never have won in 2005. They would have had a couple massive contracts with Mags, CLee, and the Big Hurt, and they would not have had AJ, Gooch, Count, Freddy, Pods, Hermie, Uribe, or JD to name a few.

 

Also, KW is not done. Worried about the bullpen, well after the next move or two, I am sure the Sox will be set in the bullpen, and probably add a couple of prospects ro ease the pain of losing Gio, Haig, and Young.

Edited December 16, 2005 by WinninUgly

[greg775]

Also chisoxfan makes good points about our bullpen.

Marte was a lefty we could throw out there. Yes he sucked last year but not in the Series.

[YASNY]

What's more risky, standing pat or trying to improve the team? It's conjecture, either way. Look back at 2005. How many times did we miss the opposing team's top starter? It seemed to happen all the time. I know at period, we saw the Twins for two series in a 10 day (or so) period and never saw Santana. We caught the Angels without Vlad in the lineup. Etc. Cleveland was on a helluva roll until a flyball was lost in the sun. Playoffs: Graffanino let's a ground ball roll through his legs. AJ reaches first on what some believe was a phantom dropped 3rd strike. Dye gets awarded 1B as HB on a foul ball and Konerko hits a slam. We used only 6 starting pitchers over the course of 174 games. We had a waiver claimed AA pitcher step in as our closer. Over the course of the year, we had 3 guys designated as our closer, yet still won. We signed a catcher that was well known as a clubhouse cancer and not considered a "good guy" by Sox players who became an integral part of the team.

 

I think there was just a little bit of luck involved. I wouldn't feel too confident going into 2006 counting on the same type of luck.

[BFirebird]

Great post fathom....I always enjoy and crack up over your sarcastic and negative game posts. Good to see a positive one from you.

 

I just have a couple of additions regarding the suspects..i mean prospects. How many actual prospects do we have starting for our current team? 2 that I can think of...Crede and Buerhle. ARow was one I know.

 

Drafting well and having a great farm system...especially in pitching and outfielders, which have been blessed with, allows you to make trades to improve your current team. All of your good to even great prospects cannot end up making your team. It is impossible.

 

In today's baseball players do not stay with their teams their whole careers and the only one I would really want back would be Young....but if that allows us to sign Contreras, by putting pressure on him, or trade him or Garland to get someone else (a la Crawford) that makes it even more worthwhile.

 

Do not judge Kenny until all the cards have been dealt. He knows what he is doing and has a plan...believe in KW!!!!!

[Jordan4life_2007]

Excellent post by Fathom.

[VAfan]

I agree Kenny has taken chances.  I've long said if Thome isn't healthy thats a horrid move.  If Thome ends up being healthy and putting up two more 40 HR seasons (I can live with the 3rd year being a wash due to injuries simply because two 40 hr seasons would be well worth it).

 

As far as Vazquez goes, I hated giving up Young, especially cause I'm not a vazquez guy.  I put faith in Coop and Ozzie working there magic.  I hope that with Vazquez in a place he wants to be (and happy) that he'll figure out how to better utilize his stuff. I do think that he's a good starter and I was glad to see us get rid of Duque.

 

The one thing that I'm worried about with next year (aside from injuries) is our bullpen.  Its seriously a lot weaker and I love Tracey's stuff but I don't like asking rooks to come in and be a major part of the club right away.  It looks like we may be relying on him and Baj.  I think both are capable, but you also have Hermy (whose hurt), Politte (coming off a major career year), Jenks (has had arm trouble in the past and has dynomite stuff, but could see a regression), and Cotts (a total horse).  Its not the deep pen it once was. 

 

If we brought in another good reliever, I'd be a lot happier.

 

 

I agree with this analysis for the most part.

 

The Thome signing, because it also helped net Konerko, was the key move. That's two major steps forward.

 

But I think we took a step back in the outfield unless something else is done. I don't trust Brian "strikeout" Anderson to be able to hit this year off his terrible performance in September. 12 Ks in 34 ABs with no walks is not confidence- building.

 

Mackoviak was a great move, because it gives us some insurance in a lot of places - OF, 3B, and 2B - and a lefty bat. It also subtracts our bullpen head case and keeps Ozzie from using Marte an inopportune moments.

 

It is the Vazquez trade that concerns me. I understand it. Vazquez might be put back on track by Coop and gives us two years of insurance in the rotation if Garland or Contreras choose to walk as free agents. And El Duque and Vizcaino are theoretically replaceable in the pen. But Chris Young?? For a guy who HAD to be traded? This one hurts. I'll take Young over any outfielder we've had since a young Magglio Ordonez, especially since he can play CF. OUCH.

 

I'm sure KW's not done, however, and he better not be. The bullpen is missing at least two arms, and the outfield still has a huge question mark in CF. Offensively, we should be better because of Thome, but if Anderson can't hit, a lot of that could be negated. Plus, what kind of depth do we have if someone goes down? Mack can't cover more than one position at a time, and if we now trade a starter, we won't have that 6th starter to cover for an injury to any of the first 5 guys.

 

So I would say, some huge plusses, some not-insignificant losses, some remaining question marks. The Sox have a chance to be even better, and I think will probably break the 100 mark in wins for the first time in franchise history. But it's not a certainty.

[SSH2005]

As far as Vazquez goes, I hated giving up Young, especially cause I'm not a vazquez guy.  I put faith in Coop and Ozzie working there magic.  I hope that with Vazquez in a place he wants to be (and happy) that he'll figure out how to better utilize his stuff. I do think that he's a good starter and I was glad to see us get rid of Duque.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the huge key. Can Cooper get Vazquez back on track? Look at Vazquez's game log from last season. He was horrible in March/April, great in May, horrible in June, great in July, horrible in August, great in September/October. He either dominates or gets shellacked. If Cooper can help him be more consistent in his outings, he could turn out to be a legitimate #2 or #3 starter for us. Vazquez definately has the stuff.

 

I'm just worried that Garland may not have the kind of trade value we think he should have. The A's got a great return for Mark Mulder last year in Danny Haren, Kiko Calero, and Daric Barton but Mulder had a 2006 team option in his contract. The Cardinals knew that they would have Mulder for at least two seasons. Any team that trades for Garland knows that they may only have him for one season. That hurts his trade value quite a bit in my opinion.

Edited December 16, 2005 by SSH2005

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm just worried that Garland may not have the kind of trade value we think he should have.  The A's got a great return for Mark Mulder last year in Danny Haren, Kiko Calero, and Daric Barton but Mulder had a 2006 team option in his contract.  The Cardinals knew that they would have Mulder for at least two seasons.  Any team that trades for Garland knows that they may only have him for one season.  That hurts his trade value quite a bit in my opinion.

 

Then we should just keep him. If he walks in 06, so be it. Will take the two draft picks and move on. I don't want to see us get fleeced in any deal involving Garland.