For Dems only.

[kapkomet]

There is a very real chance there could be 600,000 dead. I'm sure you've got valid reasons why you seem to dismiss it out of hand, please share them. I think it's our fault to the point that there wouldn't be potentially 600,000 dead had this administration not invaded a country with little thought of what to do next. If I believed "Amerikkkans killed all those people", I would have said so. But I don't, so I didn't.

 

Why you felt the need to bring it up, I've got no idea. I do know that it was in response to my question about what the good news in Iraq is at the moment. I'm going to assume you disagree with me that there is very little good news to report in Iraq, that the media is making things worse than they actually are.

 

If that's the case, good argument.

It's certainly not all roses and flowery crap that the right wing blowhards like to say, but it's not as bad as the other side claims it is, either. It's war. It will suck. Of COURSE it's not that great over there. Hell, sounds to me like we should all pack up for a glory trip to Baghdad, don'tcha think? Riiight. We're not that dumb, Laura.

 

You're right for the most part, but I also think that going around throwing 600,000 people killed around and generally insinuating that we're the single cause of it, is not correct, and I also think that number is inflated to gain more ammunition to "get out".

[Damen]

It's certainly not all roses and flowery crap that the right wing blowhards like to say, but it's not as bad as the other side claims it is, either. It's war. It will suck. Of COURSE it's not that great over there. Hell, sounds to me like we should all pack up for a glory trip to Baghdad, don'tcha think? Riiight. We're not that dumb, Laura.

 

You're right for the most part, but I also think that going around throwing 600,000 people killed around and generally insinuating that we're the single cause of it, is not correct, and I also think that number is inflated to gain more ammunition to "get out".

 

Care to provide any examples of how it's "not as bad as the other side claims" it is? You do realize that the 600,000 number was reached using the same methodology as were used in Darfur, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Eastern Congo. It was even used by the US government shortly after the Afghanistan invasion. But now, because we are more directly involved, and the number is shockingly high, its 'inflated to make us get out.'

 

Anything more to it than that, besides a reflexive dismissal of unhappy data due to partisanship?

[Balta1701]

It's certainly not all roses and flowery crap that the right wing blowhards like to say, but it's not as bad as the other side claims it is, either. It's war. It will suck. Of COURSE it's not that great over there. Hell, sounds to me like we should all pack up for a glory trip to Baghdad, don'tcha think? Riiight. We're not that dumb, Laura.

 

You're right for the most part, but I also think that going around throwing 600,000 people killed around and generally insinuating that we're the single cause of it, is not correct, and I also think that number is inflated to gain more ammunition to "get out".

When you say it's not as bad as I claim it is, here's my counterpoint. The ISG report, as a case study, did a detailed look at one day last summer. The official report for that day, just chosen at random, was about 90 attacks/civil war incidents. But when the ISG sat down and analyzed the actual results of that day, they were able to find over 1100 incidents of violence, over 90% of which weren't being reported. In other words, if I say it's as bad as what is reported in the media, in terms of total amount of violence, it's actually about an order of magnitude worse.

 

If each one of those on average wound up with 1 person dead, that would result in a greater casualty rate than what came out of the most recent Lancet study.

[kapkomet]

When you say it's not as bad as I claim it is, here's my counterpoint. The ISG report, as a case study, did a detailed look at one day last summer. The official report for that day, just chosen at random, was about 90 attacks/civil war incidents. But when the ISG sat down and analyzed the actual results of that day, they were able to find over 1100 incidents of violence, over 90% of which weren't being reported. In other words, if I say it's as bad as what is reported in the media, in terms of total amount of violence, it's actually about an order of magnitude worse.

 

If each one of those on average wound up with 1 person dead, that would result in a greater casualty rate than what came out of the most recent Lancet study.

What's "violence"? Mom screaming at the kids?

 

Seriously, there are good things happening over there too, but no one wants to look for it. Does the bad outweigh the good? Certainly. But you won't hear anything good because it doesn't sell TV ads or newspapers.

[Damen]

What's "violence"? Mom screaming at the kids?

 

Seriously, there are good things happening over there too, but no one wants to look for it. Does the bad outweigh the good? Certainly. But you won't hear anything good because it doesn't sell TV ads or newspapers.

 

Leading with a hit and run on the 10:00 news is about ratings. Reporting on the rampant violence of a civil war over some generic request for "good things happening" is assigning the events the proper amount of importance they require. There's a reason you don't here about the good things in Darfur. Doing anything less would trivialize the serious and tragic events that are occuring.

[Balta1701]

What's "violence"? Mom screaming at the kids?

Do you seriously think that with the sorry state of the Iraqi police force there are actually records of moms screaming at kids?

 

Here are the actual words of the ISG report, reccomendation 76. Judge for yourself.

 

In addition, there is significant underreporting of the violence in Iraq. The standard for recording attacks acts as a filter to keep events out of reports and databases. A murder of an Iraqi is not necessarily counted as an attack. If we cannod determine the source of a sectarian attack, that assault does not make it into the database. A roadside bomb or mortar attack that doesn't hurt U.S. personnel doesn't count. For example, on one day in July 2006 there were 93 attacks or significant acts of violence reported. Yet a careful review of the reports for that single day brought to light 1,100 acts of violence. Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals

Nearly 2 million people have fled that country in 3 years according to the U.N. There are hundreds to thousands of attacks, murders, etc. per day. Virtually all reconstruction has ground to a halt because of the total lack of security. There is a literal migration underway of Sunnis and Shi'ites into unmixed neighborhoods, especially in Baghdad, a virtual self-ethnic cleansing. The strategic position of the U.S. in Iraq and in the world gets worse every day. Unemployment is something on the order of 50%, give or take 10%. At last report, the capitol was getting around 2.4 hours of power per day in October.

 

Of course, at the small scale, there are still good things going on. But they simply aren't numerous as to even make a dent in how bad the situation has gotten.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Balta1701

[NorthSideSox72]

Nearly 2 million people have fled that country in 3 years according to the U.N. There are hundreds to thousands of attacks, murders, etc. per day. Virtually all reconstruction has ground to a halt because of the total lack of security. There is a literal migration underway of Sunnis and Shi'ites into unmixed neighborhoods, especially in Baghdad, a virtual self-ethnic cleansing. The strategic position of the U.S. in Iraq and in the world gets worse every day. Unemployment is something on the order of 50%, give or take 10%. At last report, the capitol was getting around 2.4 hours of power per day in October.

 

Of course, at the small scale, there are still good things going on. But they simply aren't numerous as to even make a dent in how bad the situation has gotten.

I think that about covers it.

 

And before someone says "its war its going to be ugly", we all know that. And it is. But thats why its supposed to be a last resort, and only when dire threat to our national security is involved. There is no way (and never was) the Iraq war falls into that category.

Edited December 15, 2006 by NorthSideSox72

[Balta1701]

On a different topic...I think my mind just fell apart on this one. Either that or I just simultaneously unraveled every mystery of the universe at once.

 

Possibly the single greatest argument as to why homosexual parents shouldn't be allowed, regardless of the data:

 

You know, why wouldn't -- why wouldn't nature then make it that anybody could get pregnant by eating a cupcake?

Context and ID of speaker here.

 

Still laughing.

[NorthSideSox72]

On a different topic...I think my mind just fell apart on this one. Either that or I just simultaneously unraveled every mystery of the universe at once.

 

Possibly the single greatest argument as to why homosexual parents shouldn't be allowed, regardless of the data:

Context and ID of speaker here.

 

Still laughing.

You know what scares me most about that news clipping? Not the cupcake comment. Its something else he said. A phrase I haven't heard uttered before, but which I think is really, really disturbing...

 

"secular-progressive"

 

Anyone who wasn't sure about the agenda of some of the religious right, there it is. Having a secular, progressive government, is not only a bad thing... they apparently are one in the same effort. We've gone past "liberal" being a dirty word, right on into progressive and even secular as being dirty, evil concepts.

 

Its right there. Some people want this nation to become their own religious fiefdom (nevermind that there are millions of non-Christians here). Which is particularly ironic when one considers that it is the tie between religion in government in the Middle East which so confounds our foreign policy. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Wonderful.

[Damen]

And before someone says "its war its going to be ugly", we all know that. And it is. But thats why its supposed to be a last resort, and only when dire threat to our national security is involved. There is no way (and never was) the Iraq war falls into that category.

 

And of course that's why the same people who dismiss the terrible ramifications of this war now with statements such as that, were likely the same one's who eagerly bought the Bush/Rumsfeldian view that this war would be anything but. Now that it's become what anti-Iraq war proponents said it would become, and were ridiculed for it, its back to being a "war is going to be ugly" scenario.

 

Yet I don't remember that phrase altered too often back in 2002-3. Back then, war was a cakewalk, to be paid for by the country we're to invade.

 

On a different topic...I think my mind just fell apart on this one. Either that or I just simultaneously unraveled every mystery of the universe at once.

 

Possibly the single greatest argument as to why homosexual parents shouldn't be allowed, regardless of the data:

Context and ID of speaker here.

 

Still laughing.

 

There's nothing Steven Colbert can do to satire Bill O'Reilly anymore than just repeating his broadcast verbatim.

[kapkomet]

And of course that's why the same people who dismiss the terrible ramifications of this war now with statements such as that, were likely the same one's who eagerly bought the Bush/Rumsfeldian view that this war would be anything but. Now that it's become what anti-Iraq war proponents said it would become, and were ridiculed for it, its back to being a "war is going to be ugly" scenario.

 

Yet I don't remember that phrase altered too often back in 2002-3. Back then, war was a cakewalk, to be paid for by the country we're to invade.

Just like we're responsible for 600,000 deaths should be ridiculed, because Saddam killed that many Shias to keep them down. THEY are killing each other simply because they can now, not DIRECTLY by us.

 

Here's the bottom line. These people have to WANT to grab their freedom. It's obvious that they can't handle it. That's Bush's miscalculation and where he went wrong. The resulting bloodshed is all about these people wanting to smoke each other at any cost more then us creating it.

[Damen]

Just like we're responsible for 600,000 deaths should be ridiculed, because Saddam killed that many Shias to keep them down. THEY are killing each other simply because they can now, not DIRECTLY by us.

 

Here's the bottom line. These people have to WANT to grab their freedom. It's obvious that they can't handle it. That's Bush's miscalculation and where he went wrong. The resulting bloodshed is all about these people wanting to smoke each other at any cost more then us creating it.

 

I know. We invaded their country, destroyed their infrastructure, and them damned Iraqi's can't handle their freedom. That in nearly 4 years we've unleashed the same amount of violence that Sadaam did in 20 doesn't seem to be a point you'd want to bring up.

 

The resulting bloodshed was widely predicted. That Bush didn't see that was just one of many miscalculations.

[kapkomet]

I know. We invaded their country, destroyed their infrastructure, and them damned Iraqi's can't handle their freedom. That in nearly 4 years we've unleashed the same amount of violence that Sadaam did in 20 doesn't seem to be a point you'd want to bring up.

 

The resulting bloodshed was widely predicted. That Bush didn't see that was just one of many miscalculations.

I'm soooooooooo sorry. We are the evil bastards of why the world is so wrong. My errors in thinking and judgements won't happen again... since WE have led to the killing of 600,000 plus people.

 

[Damen]

I'm soooooooooo sorry. We are the evil bastards of why the world is so wrong. My errors in thinking and judgements won't happen again... since WE have led to the killing of 600,000 plus people.

 

 

How old are you?

[kapkomet]

How old are you?

17.

 

[jasonxctf]

in case you didn't see it, Govenor Bill Richardson met with leaders of North Korea today in Santa Fe.

 

Here's hoping he has success and can springboard the success into a party nomination.

 

He was also on Kudlow & Company on CNBC yesterday afternoon and got some good publicity.

 

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....=rss&rpc=22

[NorthSideSox72]

in case you didn't see it, Govenor Bill Richardson met with leaders of North Korea today in Santa Fe.

 

Here's hoping he has success and can springboard the success into a party nomination.

 

He was also on Kudlow & Company on CNBC yesterday afternoon and got some good publicity.

 

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....=rss&rpc=22

He is definitely going to play up the foreign policy experience, and his energy background.

[jasonxctf]

He is definitely going to play up the foreign policy experience, and his energy background.

 

 

as he should. imo, he is the most qualified candidate out there. He's been a congressman, govenor, energy secretary and US ambassidor to the UN.

 

he's also doing some nice work on border protection in New Mexico.

[Balta1701]

For the last 3.5 months, the defense department has begun classifying the total number of attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Balta1701

[kapkomet]

as he should. imo, he is the most qualified candidate out there. He's been a congressman, govenor, energy secretary and US ambassidor to the UN.

 

he's also doing some nice work on border protection in New Mexico.

I actually don't mind Richardson so much.

[NorthSideSox72]

I actually don't mind Richardson so much.

Ladies and gentlemen - I present to you the most ringing endorsement of a Democratic candidate you will ever hear from the poster known as Kap.

 

 

sorry, couldn't resist.

 

I'm hoping he can pull out the dark horse run and win, though he is a long shot.

[kapkomet]

Ladies and gentlemen - I present to you the most ringing endorsement of a Democratic candidate you will ever hear from the poster known as Kap.

 

 

sorry, couldn't resist.

 

I'm hoping he can pull out the dark horse run and win, though he is a long shot.

[Balta1701]

Ah, the schools, the thing that pro-war folks have cited for years now as the one thing we were always doing well..."at least we're building up more schools" or something like that.

Iraq's schools, long touted by American officials as a success story in a land short on successes, increasingly are being caught in the crossfire of the country's escalating civil war.

 

President Bush has routinely talked about the refurbishment and construction of schools as a neglected story of progress in Iraq. The U.S. Agency for International Development has spent about $100 million on Iraq's education system and cites the rehabilitation of 2,962 school buildings as a signal accomplishment.

 

But today, across the country, campuses are being shuttered, students and teachers driven from their classrooms and parents left to worry that a generation of traumatized children will go without education.

 

Teachers tell of students kidnapped on their way to school, mortar rounds landing on or near campuses and educators shot in front of children.

 

This month insurgents distributed pamphlets at campuses, some sealed inside an envelope with an AK-47 bullet.

 

"To the Honest People of Baghdad," one pamphlet read, "we want you to leave the schools, hospitals, institutes, colleges and universities until the illegal government of [iraqi Prime Minister Nouri] Maliki is put down. We want your full cooperation on this."

[Damen]

At least we classified the number of attacks in Iraq. In the absence of any good news, just hide the bad news, and hope Rush convinces enough people this is all the media's fault.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

At least we classified the number of attacks in Iraq. In the absence of any good news, just hide the bad news, and hope Rush convinces enough people this is all the media's fault.......................while we sit around and crow about violence over there and say "told ya so!" while offering no concrete solution other than run away.

 

Fixed for ya.

Edited December 18, 2006 by NUKE