For GOP only

[southsider2k5]

Obstruction of justice is not too much of a stretch here.

 

The problem is that they would have to find the documents, which are potentially destroyed, which would have given a reason for something to hide. Proving a reason for the obstruction becomes hard without a smoking gun document.

Edited December 21, 2006 by southsider2k5

[kapkomet]

The strawman thing went out of style a while ago, Kap. No one has said anything to defend this, and I suspect no one will.

 

Its not different. Its the same. Show me where anyone other than you said otherwise.

 

 

Well, the judge sure did by giving him a small fine and community service.

 

 

The problem is that they would have to find the documents, which are potentially destroyed, which would have given a reason for something to hide. Proving a reason for the obstruction becomes hard with a smoking gun document.

That was more my point. If this were, oh hell, name some Republican, they would have manufactured documents to make sure that the person would have gotten jail time and smeared them through heaven and hell and back again.

[NorthSideSox72]

That was more my point. If this were, oh hell, name some Republican, they would have manufactured documents to make sure that the person would have gotten jail time and smeared them through heaven and hell and back again.

Who is this "they"? Seriously, this is the absurd part to me. I see absolutely zero indication that Republicans are somehow treated worse in similar circumstances than Democrats. None. You said, in bog capital letters, that some phantom Democrats were complaining that it was DIFFERENT. I said no, its the same. Now you say it IS different, and shouldn't be???

 

I just don't see anything here beyond a scummy NSA doing dirty work that some politicians in both parties would do under similar circumstances. And I see a judge accepting an easy plea, which is what happens to most politicians. Nowhere in all of that is party affiliation a factor.

[Cknolls]

His security clearance should have been revoked for life, not just three years.

[Balta1701]

The problem is that they would have to find the documents, which are potentially destroyed, which would have given a reason for something to hide. Proving a reason for the obstruction becomes hard without a smoking gun document.

Thus far, multiple different sources have said, both publically and under oath in the original Berger case that the documents Berger took were not originals and that no document has been lost to history due to this case.

 

As a source for this, I'll give you the Wall Street Jourlal, who went and asked repeatedly and specifically the lead prosecutor in the case whether Berger prevented examination of any documents by the 9/11 commission.

 

So we called Justice Department Public Integrity chief prosecutor Noel Hillman, who assured us that Mr. Berger did not deny any documents to history. "There is no evidence that he intended to destroy originals," said Mr. Hillman. "There is no evidence that he did destroy originals. We have objectively and affirmatively confirmed that the contents of all the five documents at issue exist today and were made available to the 9/11 Commission."

Link.

Some people won't let a bad conspiracy theory go. We're referring to those who loudly assert that former NSC adviser Sandy Berger was trying to protect the Clinton Administration when he illegally removed copies of sensitive documents from the National Archives in late 2003.

 

On Wednesday, we quoted Justice Department prosecutor Noel Hillman that no original documents were destroyed, and that the contents of all five at issue still exist and were made available to the 9/11 Commission. But that point didn't register with some readers, who continue to suggest a vast, well, apparently a vast left- and right-wing conspiracy. The Washington Times, the Rocky Mountain News and former Clintonite Dick Morris have also been peddling dark suspicions based on misinformation.

 

The confusion seems to stem from the mistaken idea that there were handwritten notes by various Clinton Administration officials in the margins of these documents, which Mr. Berger may have been able to destroy. But that's simply an "urban myth," prosecutor Hillman tells us, based on a leak last July that was "so inaccurate as to be laughable." In fact, the five iterations of the anti-terror "after-action" report at issue in the case were printed out from a hard drive at the Archives and have no notations at all.

 

"Those documents, emphatically, without doubt--I reviewed them myself--don't have notations on them," Mr. Hillman tells us. Further, "there is no evidence after comprehensive investigation to suggest he took anything other than the five documents at issue and they didn't have notes." Mr. Berger's sentencing is scheduled for July, and Mr. Hillman assures us Justice's sentencing memo will lay out the facts and "make sure Mr. Berger explains what he did and why he did it." Meanwhile, conservatives don't do themselves any credit when they are as impervious to facts as the loony left.

Link

[southsider2k5]

Oh that's right, I forgot the name Bill Clinton got mentioned... Silly me, he could have never screwed up anything. I am sure there was no reason why his former aide was removing and destroying documents or anything. It had to be just coincidence.

 

*yawn*

[Balta1701]

"Meanwhile, conservatives don't do themselves any credit when they are as impervious to facts as the loony left."

[southsider2k5]

"Meanwhile, conservatives don't do themselves any credit when they are as impervious to facts as I SEE THEM as the loony left."

 

There you go...

[EvilMonkey]

If they were just copies, and he knew that, because he never intended to destroy the originals, just what the hell WAS he doing because he certainly didn't take them on accident.

[Balta1701]

If they were just copies, and he knew that, because he never intended to destroy the originals, just what the hell WAS he doing because he certainly didn't take them on accident.

That, I have no answer to. I guess it's entirely possible he thought he was taking originals, but wound up not doing so. That is the disturbing part of all of this...there appears to be no good explanation for his behavior in the facts that are available.

[kapkomet]

That, I have no answer to. I guess it's entirely possible he thought he was taking originals, but wound up not doing so. That is the disturbing part of all of this...there appears to be no good explanation for his behavior in the facts that are available.

 

I love the way that's worded. It made my point very well.

[soxwon]

shh Don't tell them I'm making fun....

 

Q: Why is Janet Reno better than the Secret Service?

A: Because there are some things the Secret Service won't do to protect the President!

-------------------------------------------

 

The old man was critically ill. Feeling that death was near, he called his lawyer. "I want to become a Democrat. Get me a change of registration form." "You can do it", the lawyer said, "But why? You'll be dead soon, why do you want to become a Democrat?" "That's my business! Get me the form!"

 

Four days later, the old man got his registration changed. His lawyer was at his bedside making sure his bill would be paid. Suddenly the old man was racked with fits of coughing, and it was clear that this would be the end. Still curious, the lawyer leaned over and said, "Please, before it's too late, tell me why you wanted to become a Democrat so badly before you died?" In a faint whisper, as he breathed his last, the old man said: "One less Democrat".

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Q: What do you get when you cross a pilgrim with a democrat?

A: A god-fearing tax collector who gives thanks for what other people have.

 

-------------------------------------------

 

In an article on Northern Ireland, the political party Sinn Fein was described as the political wing of the IRA. I guess that makes the Democratic Party the political wing of the IRS.

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Q: What do you get when you cross a bad politician with a lawyer?

A: Chelsea.

 

-------------------------------------------

 

A Democrat and your mother-in-law are trapped in a burning building. You only have time to save one of them.

Do you have lunch or go to a movie?

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Q: What's the difference between a Democrat and a catfish?

A: One is an ugly, scum sucking bottom-feeder and the other is a fish.

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Q: What's the difference between a Democrat politician and a leech?

A: A leech quits sucking your blood after you die.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Q: What's the difference between a Democrat and a vampire?

A: A vampire only sucks blood at night.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Q: What's the difference between a Democrat on a Harley and a vacuum cleaner?

A: The vacuum has the dirt bag on the inside.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Q: What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road and a dead Democrat in the road?

A: Vultures will eat the skunk.

 

---------------------------------------------

 

Q: What's the difference between a Democrat and a prostitute?

A: The prostitute give value for the money she takes.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

Q: What's the difference between a Democrat and a bucket of cow manure?

A: The bucket.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

Q: What's the difference between a Democrat and a trampoline?

A: You take off your shoes before you jump on a trampoline.

 

 

awesome- now i got ammo for christmas at the inlaws lol

have yourself a safe conservative christmas.

[southsider2k5]

Jack Murtha, humanitarian, and a little bit more

 

Nonprofit Connects Murtha, Lobbyists

Ties to Pa. Group Mutually Beneficial

 

By Jonathan Weisman

Washington Post Staff Writer

Monday, December 25, 2006; Page A01

 

For a quarter of a century, Carmen Scialabba labored for Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.), helping parcel out the billions of dollars that came through the House Appropriations Committee, so when the disabled aide needed a favor, Murtha was there.

 

In 2001, Murtha announced the creation of Scialabba's nonprofit agency for the disabled in Johnstown, Pa. The next year, with Scialabba still on his staff, Murtha secured a half-million dollars for the group, the Pennsylvania Association for Individuals With Disabilities (PAID), and put another $150,000 in the pipeline for 2003, according to appropriations committee records and former committee aides. Since then, the group has helped hundreds of disabled people find work.

 

But the group serves another function as well. PAID has become a gathering point for defense contractors and lobbyists with business before Murtha's defense appropriations subcommittee, and for Pennsylvania businesses and universities that have thrived on federal money obtained by Murtha.

 

Lobbyists and corporate officials serve as directors on the nonprofit group's board, where they help raise money and find jobs for Johnstown's disabled workers. Some of those lobbyists have served as intermediaries between the defense contractors and businessmen on the board, and Murtha and his aides.

 

That arrangement over the years has yielded millions of dollars in federal support for the contractors, businesses and universities, and hundreds of thousands in consulting and lobbying fees to Murtha's favored lobbying shops, according to Federal Election Commission records and lobbying disclosure forms. In turn, many of PAID's directors have kept Murtha's campaigns flush with cash.

 

When the Democrats take control of Congress on Jan. 4, ethics and budget restructuring will be the first orders of business. Among the provisions in the Democrats' ethics package are demands for more transparency in the doling out of federal funds to home-district projects and a required pledge that no earmarks benefit a member of Congress personally. That could put an uncomfortable spotlight on lawmakers such as Murtha.

 

"It's a real tangled web between the congressman, the nonprofit, the defense contractors and the lobbyists," said Steve Ellis, vice president of Taxpayers for Common Sense, a nonpartisan watchdog group. "It's hard to say where one stops and the others start."

 

Murtha declined to respond to numerous phone calls and e-mails from The Washington Post requesting comment.

 

Scialabba, a former Marine whose young boxing career was cut short by polio and who relies on a wheelchair, said PAID's efforts to put a chronically underemployed population to work have rendered it above reproach. The group has provided information, training and resources to encourage businesses to hire disabled workers.

 

"Everyone's trying to make this a political thing, and it makes me very mad," Scialabba said last week in a brief interview, defending the collaborations. "Would you rather have tax dollars spent on some [disabled] guy sitting at home? We're not looking for handouts, damn it."

 

But to some watchdogs, including Taxpayers for Common Sense, Democracy 21 and Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, PAID looks a lot like the cozy nexus between lawmakers, lobbyists and business interests that Democrats railed against in the midterm campaigns.

 

Its board of directors includes Scialabba and five government contractors who have received millions of federal dollars through appropriations measures obtained by Murtha. Its advisory council includes three lobbyists from KSA Consulting, which employs Scialabba and employed Murtha's brother, Kit. Its honorary board members include still more defense contractors.

 

In turn, the lobbyists and businesses associated with PAID have become supporters of Murtha's campaigns, contributing a total of nearly $125,000 in the past three election cycles, when Murtha raised a total of $7.2 million, according to campaign records. And those same players have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars at three lobbying shops with close Murtha ties: the PMA Group, Scialabba's KSA Consulting and Ervin Technical Associates.

 

In the past year, Murtha, a Marine combat veteran and defense hawk, has gained national prominence as the leader of the Democratic charge to pull U.S. troops from Iraq. After the Democrats won control of Congress in November, he made an unsuccessful bid to become House majority leader, with strong backing from House Speaker-elect Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) The main source of his power is his perch as the top Democrat on the defense appropriations subcommittee, which controls nearly a half-trillion federal dollars a year. His largess to his friends and hardscrabble district is legendary. But now that he is assuming the chairmanship of the defense subcommittee, his actions are coming under new scrutiny.

 

Under Murtha's watch, for instance, Windber Medical Center has been transformed from a struggling hospital outside of Johnstown into a burgeoning cancer research center, thriving on Defense Department funding. Hospital officials have paid the PMA Group some $380,000 in lobbying fees since signing on in 2001. And hospital employees have financed Murtha's political campaigns to the tune of nearly $25,000.

 

"It sounds like DeLay Inc.," said Melanie Sloan, executive director of the Democratic-leaning Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, referring to former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.), who set up his own charities that became the focus of attention by businesses and lobbyists seeking to curry favor with him.

 

But Murtha has his defenders. "Jack Murtha is supportive of everything you can think of around here, from roads and sewers to defense contractors," said Bill Kuchera, chief executive of Kuchera Industries of Windber, Pa., and a PAID director. "But without Jack Murtha, there'd still be a Kuchera. We don't lean on Jack Murtha at all."

 

Murtha repeatedly intervened on behalf of PAID to help Kuchera expand.

 

After PAID's founding, Scialabba approached Kuchera to get involved. Kuchera jumped, not only joining the group's board but ramping up hiring of disabled workers, who now compose a third of the 200 employees in his company's defense business. The federal government picked up Kuchera's $7 million training bill. This year, Murtha earmarked $1.3 million for Kuchera's chemical and biological weapons detection research.

 

Kuchera employees donated more than $31,000 to Murtha in the past three election campaigns, according to federal election records. Between 1990 and 2000, contributions totaled $1,000. And congressional lobbying disclosure forms tally $140,000 in payments since 2001 from Kuchera to Ervin Technical Associates, whose chairman is former representative Joseph M. McDade (R-Pa.), a close Murtha ally.

 

The Kuchera experience is not unique. Ed Washington, another PAID director, hails from MTS Technologies, an Arlington defense contractor that recently secured $8.9 million in federal funds to expand its Johnstown facility. MTS's lobbyist, the PMA Group, has disclosed some $300,000 in fees from the company since 1998. And PMA has returned the favor: Since 1989, the firm's employees have given Murtha $107,500.

 

Daniel DeVos, an honorary PAID board member, represents Concurrent Technologies, whose employees have lavished Murtha with more than $53,000 in campaign contributions and PMA with $820,000 in fees. That may sound steep, but the rewards have been substantial: a $150 million contract to operate the Navy Metalworking Center; a $4 million contract from the Army to evaluate fuel-cell systems; and $1.7 million for a weapons of mass destruction response laboratory, among others.

 

Another PAID director, Jim Estep, is a central figure in an investigation of Rep. Alan B. Mollohan (D-W.Va.), a Murtha ally and fellow member of the Appropriations Committee. Estep heads the West Virginia High-Technology Consortium Foundation and the Institute for Scientific Research, two nonprofit organizations that Mollohan helped set up and has plied with federal funds.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

awesome- now i got ammo for christmas at the inlaws lol

have yourself a safe conservative christmas.

 

 

 

LOL! The bucket of manure joke was the best.

[southsider2k5]

Obama the "junkie". Tried cocaine amongst other drugs according to his own memoir from 11 years ago.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Obama the "junkie". Tried cocaine amongst other drugs according to his own memoir from 11 years ago.

 

 

I wonder if they'll give him the same amount of s*** for doing cocaine as they give Bush over the unfounded rumors he did cocaine.

 

My guess is no.

[EvilMonkey]

I wonder if they'll give him the same amount of s*** for doing cocaine as they give Bush over the unfounded rumors he did cocaine.

 

My guess is no.

But its always different!!!!!

[NorthSideSox72]

But its always different!!!!!

Sadly, for much of the American public who are deeply entrenched in their party of choice, that is true.

 

For some of us, its not different - its the same. I didn't like that aspect of Bush (even though I voted for him in 2000), and it counted as a negative against him in my mind. For Obama - same thing. But it won't prevent me from voting for a person exclusively.

[Rex Kickass]

I wonder if they'll give him the same amount of s*** for doing cocaine as they give Bush over the unfounded rumors he did cocaine.

 

My guess is no.

 

Obama admits it. Bush doesn't address it. So I doubt he'll get as much s*** as Bush's cocaine history, which didn't get nearly the mileage of Bill Clinton admitting that he tried marijuana.

[southsider2k5]

I wonder if they'll give him the same amount of s*** for doing cocaine as they give Bush over the unfounded rumors he did cocaine.

 

My guess is no.

 

The memoir has been around 11 years, that kind of answers that question...

[Balta1701]

The memoir has been around 11 years, that kind of answers that question...

To be fair, running for the most powerful position in the world probably requires a slightly more in-depth look into a person's background than running for the governorship of Texas, the House, or the Senate.

[southsider2k5]

To be fair, running for the most powerful position in the world probably requires a slightly more in-depth look into a person's background than running for the governorship of Texas, the House, or the Senate.

 

Also to be fair, I think most Senate races look at the canditates a little closer than the "examination" Obama got during his run. Because of the carpetbagging nutcase he ran against, he pretty much got a free pass into the Senate. Trust me, something like that would have been used against him, even in a school board race.

[Balta1701]

Also to be fair, I think most Senate races look at the canditates a little closer than the "examination" Obama got during his run. Because of the carpetbagging nutcase he ran against, he pretty much got a free pass into the Senate. Trust me, something like that would have been used against him, even in a school board race.

So, you're saying you covered up some, how shall we put it, "youthful indescretions" in your campaign?

 

[southsider2k5]

So, you're saying you covered up some, how shall we put it, "youthful indescretions" in your campaign?

 

 

Shh... hopefully it will take 11 years to come out, and I will safely be the POTUS.

[Balta1701]

Shh... hopefully it will take 11 years to come out, and I will safely be the POTUS.

Is your daddy friends with Jim Baker too?