Levine: Garland To Be Traded

[Chisoxfn]

Would anyone else be a little aprehensive about offering over 8 mil a year to guy that was complete average until this past year?

Not at all, that would be a bargain considering this market. I'd offer him 10 mill a year for 3 or 4 years and I don't think that would be enough to sign him.

[nitetrain8601]

I'd rather have Brazoban, he tired a bit at the end of the year, given a consistent set up role, or spot relief, I think he could be lights out.

 

I agree. He has the stuff, plus he would be the #4 or 5 reliever on the team. He'd be great whenever he came in.

[SoxFan1]

Haha

[knightni]

[Chisoxfn]

Yep, makes sense to me.  Why would a team rather have half a season of Garland over a full season of him?

Its more the fact that mid-season if you have a good pitcher on the block, every team thats in competition is going to be gunning for him. Some teams will be gunning for him simply to block him from another team. Because you have so many "buyers" per say, it means that the seller has all the leverage and will be able to max his return.

 

However, I think the Sox are kind of forced to deal Garland now, or at least thats the inkling due to payroll. Personally I think we've downgraded our rotation cause Garland >>> Vazquez. I don't care what anyone tells me, but I like the fact that we'll have him for a few more years.

[WHarris1]

Garland >>> Vazquez.

Based on what?

 

It's really hard to judge either of them or predict what they will do this year. I don't see how Garland is A LOT better than Vaz.

 

If you base on past success Javy is far better, base it on last year Garland is better. Last year was Garlands first good year, whereas Javy used to be great and has been down a bit recently.

Edited December 21, 2005 by WHarris1

[sircaffey]

Which is why I think Kenny will wait for the deadline. That's when you could rip off teams for their prospects.

 

You really think KW would be one to trade away from his major league team mid season and make it worse? Unless he gets major league talent back, I highly doubt KW would be willing to do that. That is, unless we aren't in contention, knock on wood.

[Rowand44]

Based on what?

Last season, obviously. Vazquez has had a better career in the nl but Jon is 26 years old and coming off a fantastic year so he could definitely be the better pitcher. As of right now I think Jon is better but if Coop can figure out Vaz then Javi is going to be a stud for us imo.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Rowand44

[WHarris1]

Last season, obviously.  Vazquez has had a better career in the nl but Jon is 26 years old and coming off a fantastic year so he could definitely be the better pitcher.  As of right now I think Jon is better but if Coop can figure out Vaz again then Javi is going to be a stud for us imo.

Ah so last year makes him ALOT better?

[Chisoxfn]

I agree. He has the stuff, plus he would be the #4 or 5 reliever on the team. He'd be great whenever he came in.

Broxton >>> Brazoban

[Chisoxfn]

Based on what?

 

It's really hard to judge either of them or predict what they will do this year.  I don't see how Garland is A LOT better than Vaz.

 

If you base on past success Javy is far better, base it on last year Garland is better.  Last year was Garlands first good year, whereas Javy used to be great and has been down a bit recently.

Based on the fact that Garland has had succes with the Sox. He's 26 years old and has been a workhorse with the Sox (not that Vazquez doesn't throw innings). He's continually improved and even when he was busy dissapointing most Sox fans he was still a solid 4th starter.

 

Last season he made the adjustments and was arguably our best pitcher over the full course of the season (obviously Contreras was dynomite in the 2nd half). Why not Garland.

 

Look at Vazquez ERA the past two seasons, not exactly something to write home about. He has good stuff, but I'll take Garland every day of the week over Vazquez. Plus Garland is a great guy and doesn't whine like a little baby like Vazquez does.

 

I only hope that Vazquez being with Ozzie (whom he obviously likes) allows Vazquez to be happy and pitch up to expectations, but I know Garland can, so were trading a guy who will repeat what he did last year for a guy whose going to have to really step it up and pitch better than he did the prior season (plus he's coming back to a hitters league, so that ERA should jump up .3 or so from that). That means he's gonna have to be about a full run better this year if he wants to come close to what Jonny boy did.

[Rowand44]

Ah so last year makes him ALOT better?

He was a lot better last year. I could see how people think Jon is much better and I could see how people would believe that Vaz is the better pitcher, we're just going to have to see.

[nitetrain8601]

You really think KW would be one to trade away from his major league team mid season and make it worse?  Unless he gets major league talent back, I highly doubt KW would be willing to do that.  That is, unless we aren't in contention, knock on wood.

 

You either make it worse now and probably get inferior talent for him or you make it worse later and get better talent and probably are able to asses your needs more. I'd wait to deal him if at all.

[Chisoxfn]

Ah so last year makes him ALOT better?

Yes, what Vazquez did in Montreal is a few years away. He hasn't done s*** since the 1st half of the year with the Yanks (after that he was completely terrible and was very up and down for the Dbacks last year).

 

Vazquez has good stuff, but just cause every guy has good stuff doesn't mean the Sox can just take him in and work there magic, turning them into aces. But who knows, maybe Coop is the 2nd coming of Mazzone.

[nitetrain8601]

Yes, what Vazquez did in Montreal is a few years away.  He hasn't done s*** since the 1st half of the year with the Yanks (after that he was completely terrible and was very up and down for the Dbacks last year).

 

Vazquez has good stuff, but just cause every guy has good stuff doesn't mean the Sox can just take him in and work there magic, turning them into aces.  But who knows, maybe Coop is the 2nd coming of Mazzone.

 

Mazzone is the 2nd coming of Coop is more like it.

[SSH2005]

He was a lot better last year.  I could see how people think Jon is much better and I could see how people would believe that Vaz is the better pitcher, we're just going to have to see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Cooper can straighten out Vazquez, I think he will be a better pitcher than Garland. He has much better stuff and is a strikeout pitcher. Not every other team has the kind of insane infield defense that we had last season which saved Garland from giving up some runs. Vazquez will probably still struggle at the Cell like Garcia because he gives up too many flyballs though.

[Chisoxfn]

I want to reiterate one thing for everyone here saying Brazoban is >>> Braxton.

 

I realize Braxton has only pitched 14 major league innings, but Braxton has a better arm. To top things off, he actually has the ability to throw a slider and a damn good one while Brazoban is a one pitch pitcher and once everyone figured that out they started to shell him (ie when the Sox clobbered him early in the season).

 

Brazoban has a great arm too, but he has a big time lack of command on anything else he throws (his fastball included at times).

 

Broxton = Big Time Closer Prospect. Between him and Jenks we'd have two of the very best bullpen arms in baseball (I'm talking from a pure arm standpoint).

 

The 22 k's in 14 innings tells me all I need to know. The guy whiffed Pujols for his 1st major league K and made Pujols look like a fool.

 

Broxton is a must in any trade because he slides in and helps the Sox now and in the future. Bullpen pieces are becoming expensive so being able to find young ones that you have control over for a few years is key. Broxton is one of those guys.

 

Aside from that I'd love Billingsley, but If I couldn't get Bill, I'd ask for Elbert and Edwin Jackson. Elbert is a really good young lefty while Jackson has a killer arm and I think everyone forgets the guy is still 21 years old (he was rushed so the Sox can slow him down; plus a change of scenery will do the guy good). To top things off, he can be the insurance plan if any starter goes down (and I think as we slow him down and just let him ease back into things, you'll see him take off).

 

Elbert, Broxton, Jackson would be a very good deal. Elbert ranks somewhere near Gio in terms of a prospect. They both were in the SAL last year (well Gio got promoted eventually) and both have high K numbers. I think Elbert has a better build, but both are potential front of the rotation guys.

[WHarris1]

Yes, what Vazquez did in Montreal is a few years away.  He hasn't done s*** since the 1st half of the year with the Yanks (after that he was completely terrible and was very up and down for the Dbacks last year).

 

Vazquez has good stuff, but just cause every guy has good stuff doesn't mean the Sox can just take him in and work there magic, turning them into aces.  But who knows, maybe Coop is the 2nd coming of Mazzone.

Coincidience Javy went down hill when pitching for the Yankees?

 

This guy was a stud in Montreal, better than the Garland of last year. He obviously couldn't handle pitching in New York and didn't bounce back pitching for s***ty Arizona. I would give him pretty good odds pitching with a manager he likes and a good game-calling catcher to bounce back.

[Chisoxfn]

If Cooper can straighten out Vazquez, I think he will be a better pitcher than Garland.  He has much better stuff and is a strikeout pitcher.  Not every other team has the kind of insane infield defense that we had last season which saved Garland from giving up some runs.  Vazquez will probably still struggle at the Cell like Garcia because he gives up too many flyballs though.

Technically speaking Vazquez gives up a ton of hr's, but he's not exactly a fly ball pitcher. Hell he's had some years where he was a ground ball pitcher. I can only hope part of the reason for the HR's this past year were because he was in AZ (and for whatever reason the ball jumps out of there). AZ (I don't know what the stats show) is one of the better hitters parks in the NL.

[Rowand44]

If Cooper can straighten out Vazquez, I think he will be a better pitcher than Garland.  He has much better stuff and is a strikeout pitcher.  Not every other team has the kind of insane infield defense that we had last season which saved Garland from giving up some runs.  Vazquez will probably still struggle at the Cell like Garcia because he gives up too many flyballs though.

That's an IF though, Jon has proven more recently that he's a better pitcher. While I have confidence in coop and even moreso that Kenny sees something in Javi that can be fixed you can't just put him on a higher pedastile then Jon right now. That being said it obviously is possible for Vaz to turn it around then you have another stud in the rotation for 3 years, so we'll see. All I'm saying that as of right now I think Jon is the better pitcher but that can change very quick.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Rowand44

[WHarris1]

That's an IF though, Jon has proven more recently that he's a better pitcher.

And it's not an IF that Garland can repeat last season?

 

Hell neither of these guys are sure things so I will take my chances with the guy that has proved it over multiple years and has dynamite stuff.

Edited December 21, 2005 by WHarris1

[CWSGuy406]

Yes, what Vazquez did in Montreal is a few years away.  He hasn't done s*** since the 1st half of the year with the Yanks (after that he was completely terrible and was very up and down for the Dbacks last year).

 

Vazquez has good stuff, but just cause every guy has good stuff doesn't mean the Sox can just take him in and work there magic, turning them into aces.  But who knows, maybe Coop is the 2nd coming of Mazzone.

 

It's not just Coop, though, or the 'Ozzie' factor.

 

He's going to be pitching in front of a defense that was #2 in converting balls in play into outs. Likewise, wherever Garland goes, his defense will be worse, which can mean bad things, especially for a guy who doesn't K a whole lot of batters.

 

Vazquez was the right guy to go after. I still don't like that they gave up Young, but if there was ever a guy to rebound, Vazquez is the guy.

[Chisoxfn]

That's an IF though, Jon has proven more recently that he's a better pitcher.  While I have confidence in coop and even moreso that Kenny sees something in Javi that can be fixed you can't just put him on a higher pedastile then Jon right now.  That being said it obviously is possible for Vaz to turn it around then you have another stud in the rotation for 3 years, so we'll see.  All I'm saying that as of right now I think Jon is the better pitcher but that can change very quick.

The only reason this works out as a wash is because we control the rights to Javier for 2 more years than Jon. Thats the only reason too, cause we gave up a stud CF to get him.

 

However, if we are able to turn that stud CF into a couple stud pitching prospects, than you won't see one complaint out of him. As a whole I like what Kenny's done this off-season. I'm not much of a fan of Vazquez, but I admit the stuff is there.

 

However, he has attitude problems and I'm not going to just assume Coop can turn him back into the pitcher he once was. Hopefully he can though.

[Rowand44]

And it's not an IF that Garland can repeat last season?

Do we have to argue the same thing here and on aim.

[WHarris1]

Do we have to argue the same thing here and on aim.

Yes...