The lastest on Garland

[Chisoxfn]

I'm not sure I see why your so down on the pen right now.  We have 4 very talented guys in there right now if you include Brandon, one who can be very solid if healthy, and imo a prospect that is a perfect fit for the pen in Tracey.  I would like to see Kenny add another reliever or two if possible but our pen certainly isnt in bad shape imo.

I'm a believer of putting in as many good arms as you can because you always have guys get hurt or guys that end up having a down year. That way if you have more talented guys the odds of more of them panning out are greater.

 

When it comes to relievers they tend to be more inconsistent so its nice to have plenty of options. Plus Jenks hasn't exactly been up for an extended period of time and he has had arm troubles. If he stays heatlhy I'm confident in him.

[VAfan]

Two bullpen arms for Jon Garland???

 

I can believe the rest of the post, but there are no bullpen arms we would get in trade who would equal the value of Jon Garland.

 

Let's just talk about West Coast teams, since that's where everyone assumes he wants to go.

 

Angels: Kelvim Escobar, Scott Shields?? A viable pair from our perspective, but there's no way the Angels would make that trade. They'd want to give us back end of the bullpen guys like Kevin Gregg or maybe Brendan Donnelly. No thanks.

 

Dodgers: You guys have thrown around a lot of names, but do you realize not a single Dodger reliever other than Eric Gagne had an ERA below 3.73? That's Luis Vizcaino's ERA from the AL. So anyone we'd get from them is liable to make our bullpen worse than it was last year. I'd say that's getting great value for an 18-game winner.

 

Giants: Scott Eyre was their best guy, and he's gone. Everyone else would make you miss Vizcaino and Marte.

 

Seattle: Eddie Guardado would provide some value, and Julio Mateo looks decent enough on paper, but do you think Garland wants to play in Seattle, and that they are willing to pay him?

 

San Diego: I don't think they are going to send us Trevor Hoffman. And they can't afford Garland anyway.

 

 

To trade a front-line starter like Garland for bullpen arms makes no sense whatsoever. I don't believe Kenny Williams is that dumb. Knowing what happened when we were a starter short in 2001-2004, I think he'd rather keep Garland and lose him to FA than accept no value in return.

 

In the long run, the Sox need to replace their outfield. Brian Anderson may or may not make it; same for Jerry Owens and Ryan Sweeney. Podsednik's wheels already look shaky after one year, and without them he's a marginal ballplayer at best. Dye is going to be 32 this year, but isn't likely to match his 2005 production over a full season again.

 

The irony of this, of course, is that the Sox traded their best outfield prospect for Javier Vazquez, and there's no guarantee we'd get someone as good even though we have a better pitcher to offer. The reason is Garland's contract status. Vazquez is Sox property for 3 years. Garland is only a 1-year rental, with no guarantee he'll repeat his 2005 form for a new club with shakier defense and a different catcher calling the game.

 

So from my perspective, the Sox should keep Garland and take the draft picks when he walks. Keeping him gives us the best chance of repeating the division title and facing down the Yankees in the playoffs. And I'd certainly take another shot at winning the World Series over a couple of mediocre bullpen arms.

[Rowand44]

I'm a believer of putting in as many good arms as you can because you always have guys get hurt or guys that end up having a down year.  That way if you have more talented guys the odds of more of them panning out are greater. 

 

When it comes to relievers they tend to be more inconsistent so its nice to have plenty of options.  Plus Jenks hasn't exactly been up for an extended period of time and he has had arm troubles.  If he stays heatlhy I'm confident in him.

That's fair and I understand what you're saying. IMO the Cotts-Jenks setup to closer combo has the potential to be one of the best in the league, I don't even worry about those two to be honest. Dustin I still think will be fine IF healthy which is obviously a huge if. I have confidence in Cliff cause he just learned to go straight after hitters last year instead of messing around, he's got to drop that damn 2 seamer from his repetoire though. I also love Tracey's prospects from the pen and everyone here knows how I feel about Brandon. That being said I would definitely love to add another damn good reliever or two if at all possible.

[Kyyle23]

Here comes another "why does everyone want to trade Garland?" thread again.

[Gene Honda Civic]

If MLB is McDonalds, then Timo was the Hamburgler. That guy was a thief.

[RockRaines]

I was looking at your list, and I started thinking that it really does add up to that it is better to hold on to him than trade him right now.

 

First, I would add to the Positive side:  We'll know what holes need to be filled better at the trade deadline.

 

Then if you look at it, "May regress into the Garland of old" and "Maybe increase his value" are two sides of the same question that is impossible to know the answer to right now.  "May hurt BMAC's dev" and "Bullpen better with BMAC" pretty much offset each other as well.

 

What I'm left with is:

 

Positives:

 

Pitching Staff is better with Garland

May increase offers

We'll know better what our needs are at trade deadline.

 

Negatives:

 

May only get draft picks

To me that looks like a pretty strong case for hanging onto him for a bit.  The only real negative is that we could end up getting some good draft picks.  Maybe Javier or Freddy don't perform well next season and Garland becomes invaluable, we keep him, win the World Series again and let him sign somewhere else and take our trophy and our draft picks and have a nice winter.

I agree with you on this for sure.

[SoxFan1]

Do you go to Sox games SF1?

Yes, I do. But none in 2005 unfortunately. Why do you ask?

[Chisoxfn]

Ok lets presume Kenny wants two relievers in a deal:

Elbert or another prospect from the Dodgers, Broxton, and Brazoban.

 

Brazoban is a major leaguer reliever that started to really struggle late last year, however he did notch 22 saves and has a power arm. Broxton is a converted reliever who was called up late last season and has a power arm and a good slider.

 

Elbert is an A ball rookie thats on par with Gio Gonzalez. Not a bad looking deal cause the Sox can slide Brazoban and Broxton into the back of there pen and let the two develop. Plus you have a shot at letting Tracey compete.

 

Would this not be a fair enough deal?

[maggsmaggs]

Kenny always gives up too much in trades to get the guy he wants (I do agree with him thought b/c prospects are prospects,) but KW better not get screwed for Garland. He needs to get top prospects or bullpen arms or just not trade Garland at all.

[Rowand44]

Yes, I do. But none in 2005 unfortunately. Why do you ask?

Because if you do then your helping supply money to the owners who pay these players. The players are only paid that much money because they help bring it in. What I'm saying is if you don't think they should be paid all that money then you shouldn't be attending games. Anyways, that's my last word on this subject, I'll drop it so I don't hijack this damn thread any longer.

[maggsmaggs]

Ok lets presume Kenny wants two relievers in a deal:

Elbert or another prospect from the Dodgers, Broxton, and Brazoban.

 

Brazoban is a major leaguer reliever that started to really struggle late last year, however he did notch 22 saves and has a power arm.  Broxton is a converted reliever who was called up late last season and has a power arm and a good slider. 

 

Elbert is an A ball rookie thats on par with Gio Gonzalez.  Not a bad looking deal cause the Sox can slide Brazoban and Broxton into the back of there pen and let the two develop.  Plus you have a shot at letting Tracey compete. 

 

Would this not be a fair enough deal?

I like it and Colleti wants to make an impact right now with the vet signings and Furcal. I think he would do something like this for Garland. They don't give up Guzman, Billingsley, Miller or Jackson. Let's hope Colleti will overpay trying to get Garland.

[Rowand44]

Ok lets presume Kenny wants two relievers in a deal:

Elbert or another prospect from the Dodgers, Broxton, and Brazoban.

 

Brazoban is a major leaguer reliever that started to really struggle late last year, however he did notch 22 saves and has a power arm.  Broxton is a converted reliever who was called up late last season and has a power arm and a good slider. 

 

Elbert is an A ball rookie thats on par with Gio Gonzalez.  Not a bad looking deal cause the Sox can slide Brazoban and Broxton into the back of there pen and let the two develop.  Plus you have a shot at letting Tracey compete. 

 

Would this not be a fair enough deal?

To be honest, I actually like that deal. Get two dynamite arms for this year and then get a guy who should be ready by the time we actually need another sp(assuming JC is signed to an extension)

[fathom]

With Gagne out for the Dodgers, I can't see them giving up Braz.

[Guest JimH]

Two bullpen arms for Jon Garland???

 

I can believe the rest of the post, but there are no bullpen arms we would get in trade who would equal the value of Jon Garland.

 

Let's just talk about West Coast teams, since that's where everyone assumes he wants to go.

 

Angels: Kelvim Escobar, Scott Shields??  A viable pair from our perspective, but there's no way the Angels would make that trade.  They'd want to give us back end of the bullpen guys like Kevin Gregg or maybe Brendan Donnelly.  No thanks.

 

Dodgers: You guys have thrown around a lot of names, but do you realize not a single Dodger reliever other than Eric Gagne had an ERA below 3.73?  That's Luis Vizcaino's ERA from the AL.  So anyone we'd get from them is liable to make our bullpen worse than it was last year.  I'd say that's getting great value for an 18-game winner. 

 

Giants:  Scott Eyre was their best guy, and he's gone.  Everyone else would make you miss Vizcaino and Marte. 

 

Seattle:  Eddie Guardado would provide some value, and Julio Mateo looks decent enough on paper, but do you think Garland wants to play in Seattle, and that they are willing to pay him? 

 

San Diego:  I don't think they are going to send us Trevor Hoffman.  And they can't afford Garland anyway. 

To trade a front-line starter like Garland for bullpen arms makes no sense whatsoever.  I don't believe Kenny Williams is that dumb.  Knowing what happened when we were a starter short in 2001-2004, I think he'd rather keep Garland and lose him to FA than accept no value in return. 

 

In the long run, the Sox need to replace their outfield.  Brian Anderson may or may not make it; same for Jerry Owens and Ryan Sweeney.  Podsednik's wheels already look shaky after one year, and without them he's a marginal ballplayer at best.  Dye is going to be 32 this year, but isn't likely to match his 2005 production over a full season again. 

 

The irony of this, of course, is that the Sox traded their best outfield prospect for Javier Vazquez, and there's no guarantee we'd get someone as good even though we have a better pitcher to offer.  The reason is Garland's contract status.  Vazquez is Sox property for 3 years.  Garland is only a 1-year rental, with no guarantee he'll repeat his 2005 form for a new club with shakier defense and a different catcher calling the game.

 

So from my perspective, the Sox should keep Garland and take the draft picks when he walks.  Keeping him gives us the best chance of repeating the division title and facing down the Yankees in the playoffs.  And I'd certainly take another shot at winning the World Series over a couple of mediocre bullpen arms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Once again, you don't get it.

 

Please connect the dots:

 

Garland is in line for a huge arbitration award.

 

The White Sox are apparantly over budget already.

 

Conclusion:

 

It doesn't matter what your preferences are. Try looking at reality. Why are you assuming mediocre bullpen arms? You are not a scout.

 

If you will (for once) look at the whole, realistic picture, you would not be throwing around names like Guardado and Trevor Hoffman. They make big money. Same with Brian Giles by the way.

 

Again, they are apparantly over budget, they would not have made the Vazquez trade if Garland had signed an extension.

 

It takes more analysis than just looking at the other team's major league roster and drawing a short sighted conclusion.

 

Williams just said the other day that he favors starting out young pitchers in the bullpen and ultimately grooming them to be a starter if it suits the team and the player. Do you not think they could find a younger pitcher or two who would fit and contribute nicely in a 2006/2007 bullpen role, with an eye toward developing them as a starter for years beyond?

 

I fail to see why you don't come to grips with reality on this. It has nothing to do with what you want. It has everything to do with what the White Sox need and want to do. Otherwise, you are needlessly arguing and belaboring ideas with no basis in reality.

[nitetrain8601]

We better get two damn good relievers.  Cause if I read that right...a major league one, and one on the cusp I think of Brazoban and Broxton and I'd throw up at the idea of that.

 

Its not getting enough.  We have something EVERYONE wants and we better not get talent for it.  I'm sorry, we gave up Chris Young for Vazquez (there were financial reasons as well) but nothing tells me we shouldn't get a little more for Jon Garland.

 

I don't know. A lot of people are really high on Broxton. That was one of the main guys Boston wanted for Manny when they were dangling him to LA. Lots of Dodger and even Angel fans think he could be a dominant setup man.

[Guest JimH]

Ok lets presume Kenny wants two relievers in a deal:

Elbert or another prospect from the Dodgers, Broxton, and Brazoban.

 

Brazoban is a major leaguer reliever that started to really struggle late last year, however he did notch 22 saves and has a power arm.  Broxton is a converted reliever who was called up late last season and has a power arm and a good slider. 

 

Elbert is an A ball rookie thats on par with Gio Gonzalez.  Not a bad looking deal cause the Sox can slide Brazoban and Broxton into the back of there pen and let the two develop.  Plus you have a shot at letting Tracey compete. 

 

Would this not be a fair enough deal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is exactly the type of deal he's trying to make.

[Chisoxfn]

This is exactly the type of deal he's trying to make.

I'd be excited over it and if the relievers panned out it would give the Sox two guys that they'd have control over for quite a few more years and thats really key if you want to have a good bullpen (its really hard to keep your bullpen strong via FA, imo).

[Guest JimH]

I'd be excited over it and if the relievers panned out it would give the Sox two guys that they'd have control over for quite a few more years and thats really key if you want to have a good bullpen (its really hard to keep your bullpen strong via FA, imo).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is exactly the thinking. Please explain it to VAFan if you would be so kind Jason. Thank you. :banghead

[VAfan]

Ok lets presume Kenny wants two relievers in a deal:

Elbert or another prospect from the Dodgers, Broxton, and Brazoban.

 

Brazoban is a major leaguer reliever that started to really struggle late last year, however he did notch 22 saves and has a power arm.  Broxton is a converted reliever who was called up late last season and has a power arm and a good slider. 

 

Elbert is an A ball rookie thats on par with Gio Gonzalez.  Not a bad looking deal cause the Sox can slide Brazoban and Broxton into the back of there pen and let the two develop.  Plus you have a shot at letting Tracey compete. 

 

Would this not be a fair enough deal?

 

I can't seem to copy their stat lines over from ESPN, but Brazoban's ERA was 5.33 over 72 innings with 6 blown saves, 32 walks, and a WHIP of 1.40. Broxton's line was worse: 13 innings, 5.93 ERA, 12 walks, 1.83 WHIP, 1 blown save.

 

Luis Vizcaino, by comparison, pitched 70 innings, posted a 3.73 ERA, walked 29 guys with a WHIP of 1.47, and blew only 3 saves.

 

So other than the fact that you think these guys arms are great, it looks like Vizcaino performed quite a bit better than both last year. Sure, Brazoban and Broxton are both quite a bit younger than Vizcaino, but that may or may translate into performance next year or beyond.

 

I'd rather have a 6-deep dominant rotation than to be worried all year that we're screwed if any of our starters go down. Especially with 3 of them putting in extra innings in the World Baseball Classic. (Remember Buehrle's foot injury at the end of spring training last year? Luckily, it wasn't anything.)

[Guest JimH]

I can't seem to copy their stat lines over from ESPN, but Brazoban's ERA was 5.33 over 72 innings with 6 blown saves, 32 walks, and a WHIP of 1.40.  Broxton's line was worse: 13 innings, 5.93 ERA, 12 walks, 1.83 WHIP, 1 blown save. 

 

Luis Vizcaino, by comparison, pitched 70 innings, posted a 3.73 ERA, walked 29 guys with a WHIP of 1.47, and blew only 3 saves. 

 

So other than the fact that you think these guys arms are great, it looks like Vizcaino performed quite a bit better than both last year.  Sure, Brazoban and Broxton are both quite a bit younger than Vizcaino, but that may or may translate into performance next year or beyond. 

 

I'd rather have a 6-deep dominant rotation than to be worried all year that we're screwed if any of our starters go down.  Especially with 3 of them putting in extra innings in the World Baseball Classic.  (Remember Buehrle's foot injury at the end of spring training last year?  Luckily, it wasn't anything.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Garland is in line for a huge arbitration award. The White Sox are apparantly well over budget as it stands right now.

 

What you'd rather do has no bearing whatsoever.

Edited December 22, 2005 by JimH

[Chisoxfn]

I can't seem to copy their stat lines over from ESPN, but Brazoban's ERA was 5.33 over 72 innings with 6 blown saves, 32 walks, and a WHIP of 1.40.  Broxton's line was worse: 13 innings, 5.93 ERA, 12 walks, 1.83 WHIP, 1 blown save. 

 

Luis Vizcaino, by comparison, pitched 70 innings, posted a 3.73 ERA, walked 29 guys with a WHIP of 1.47, and blew only 3 saves. 

 

So other than the fact that you think these guys arms are great, it looks like Vizcaino performed quite a bit better than both last year.  Sure, Brazoban and Broxton are both quite a bit younger than Vizcaino, but that may or may translate into performance next year or beyond. 

 

I'd rather have a 6-deep dominant rotation than to be worried all year that we're screwed if any of our starters go down.  Especially with 3 of them putting in extra innings in the World Baseball Classic.  (Remember Buehrle's foot injury at the end of spring training last year?  Luckily, it wasn't anything.)

Look at Broxton's periphs. The guy was fresh into AA and he's possibly the best closer prospect in the minors right now. As far as Brazoban goes, teams would love to have him. He hit a funk when he lost his closers role, but he has had success at the major league level. The problem was he got rushed into the closers spot.

 

And in Elbert we are getting a guy that would be our top pitching prospect along with Broadway.

[nitetrain8601]

Two bullpen arms for Jon Garland???

 

I can believe the rest of the post, but there are no bullpen arms we would get in trade who would equal the value of Jon Garland.

 

Let's just talk about West Coast teams, since that's where everyone assumes he wants to go.

 

Angels: Kelvim Escobar, Scott Shields??  A viable pair from our perspective, but there's no way the Angels would make that trade.  They'd want to give us back end of the bullpen guys like Kevin Gregg or maybe Brendan Donnelly.  No thanks.

 

Dodgers: You guys have thrown around a lot of names, but do you realize not a single Dodger reliever other than Eric Gagne had an ERA below 3.73?  That's Luis Vizcaino's ERA from the AL.  So anyone we'd get from them is liable to make our bullpen worse than it was last year.  I'd say that's getting great value for an 18-game winner. 

 

Giants:  Scott Eyre was their best guy, and he's gone.  Everyone else would make you miss Vizcaino and Marte. 

 

Seattle:  Eddie Guardado would provide some value, and Julio Mateo looks decent enough on paper, but do you think Garland wants to play in Seattle, and that they are willing to pay him? 

 

San Diego:  I don't think they are going to send us Trevor Hoffman.  And they can't afford Garland anyway. 

To trade a front-line starter like Garland for bullpen arms makes no sense whatsoever.  I don't believe Kenny Williams is that dumb.  Knowing what happened when we were a starter short in 2001-2004, I think he'd rather keep Garland and lose him to FA than accept no value in return. 

 

In the long run, the Sox need to replace their outfield.  Brian Anderson may or may not make it; same for Jerry Owens and Ryan Sweeney.  Podsednik's wheels already look shaky after one year, and without them he's a marginal ballplayer at best.  Dye is going to be 32 this year, but isn't likely to match his 2005 production over a full season again. 

 

The irony of this, of course, is that the Sox traded their best outfield prospect for Javier Vazquez, and there's no guarantee we'd get someone as good even though we have a better pitcher to offer.  The reason is Garland's contract status.  Vazquez is Sox property for 3 years.  Garland is only a 1-year rental, with no guarantee he'll repeat his 2005 form for a new club with shakier defense and a different catcher calling the game.

 

So from my perspective, the Sox should keep Garland and take the draft picks when he walks.  Keeping him gives us the best chance of repeating the division title and facing down the Yankees in the playoffs.  And I'd certainly take another shot at winning the World Series over a couple of mediocre bullpen arms.

 

It doesn't matter where Garland wants to play. He's going to play there. I'm sure he would like to play in Seattle simply because the chances of him keeping his current market value or have it go up jumps up greatly since that's a huge pitcher's park. Seattle would want him because they have a frontline starter for at least 1 year and might be able to actually compete for the division next year. I don't know who Seattle would give up though.

 

And I was saying yesterday that we probably and should hang onto Garland til around the trading deadline because that's when you could rip off teams.

Edited December 22, 2005 by nitetrain8601

[Rowand44]

I can't seem to copy their stat lines over from ESPN, but Brazoban's ERA was 5.33 over 72 innings with 6 blown saves, 32 walks, and a WHIP of 1.40.  Broxton's line was worse: 13 innings, 5.93 ERA, 12 walks, 1.83 WHIP, 1 blown save. 

 

Luis Vizcaino, by comparison, pitched 70 innings, posted a 3.73 ERA, walked 29 guys with a WHIP of 1.47, and blew only 3 saves. 

 

So other than the fact that you think these guys arms are great, it looks like Vizcaino performed quite a bit better than both last year.  Sure, Brazoban and Broxton are both quite a bit younger than Vizcaino, but that may or may translate into performance next year or beyond. 

 

I'd rather have a 6-deep dominant rotation than to be worried all year that we're screwed if any of our starters go down.  Especially with 3 of them putting in extra innings in the World Baseball Classic.  (Remember Buehrle's foot injury at the end of spring training last year?  Luckily, it wasn't anything.)

Brazoban has proven he can be dominate in the majors, I think a lot of his problems came from having to close last year. Also, you're looking at quite a sample size with Broxton.

[Kyyle23]

Garland is in line for a huge arbitration award.  The White Sox are apparantly well over budget as it stands right now.

 

What you'd rather do has no bearing whatsoever.

 

I just dont understand why you want to trade Garland so bad and why you think he wont get any better? There is noone in the major leagues that the White Sox could trade with and possibly get better. Its impossible. I have not been able to reach a conclusion that states otherwise. Stats prove that you cannot trade a SP of Jon Garlands calibur and recieve equal value in return.

 

[Guest JimH]

Brazoban has proven he can be dominate in the majors, I think a lot of his problems came from having to close last year.  Also, you're looking at quite a sample size with Broxton.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He's looking at last years stats and making statements without knowing anything about the players.

 

That's why there are pro scouts, to identify other teams up and coming players.

 

Oh never mind. He doesn't get it and I suspect he never will.