Rumor: 4-Way Garland Trade

[ZoomSlowik]

Yeah, I dunno about that.  If you're a team that he hasnt specifically stated that he wants to be traded to, you'll always be wondering when the next time he'll go off is.  I wouldnt want him in my clubhouse if he was a GM, when you take into account his attitude, his contract, and his age. 

 

No one doubts his talent, but numbers alone do not a desireable team player make.  Rafael Palmeiro is still good for 30/100 a season but you're not going to see teams lining up for his services.

 

He led the league in Ks/9 innings last season, that's a pretty neat trick for an underachiever.  And then there's the age factor, where Prior is just heading into his prime and has at least 10 more years to look forward to, where Manny has probably peaked and is on the downside of a very expensive career.  He's going to be baseball's version of Allan Houston.

 

If you're talking about next season and next season alone, then I'd agree with you.  But anything beyond that, I disagree.

 

Age, attitude, and money. 

 

I dunno about that either.  Remember two years ago when the clubhouse disintigrated over freakin Steve Stone?  Chemistry is always a concern, regardless of your record.

 

And one hitter does not an All Star slugger make.  One wonders what Manny would do if he didnt have Manny Ortiz and Jim Thome in the same lineup.

 

When has Manny ever "gone off" to the point that he has been suspended, or that he was benched? There was one situation where the manager (I think it was Little, not sure) decided it would be best if he didn't play while trade rumors were circulating. That was the only time in his career that I can remember. He's never even come close to being the kind of annoyance that TO is/was. Frankly, the Manny talk is overblown. Many other players have done similar things or worse, but have not been anywhere near as big a story.

 

First off, Palmiero is a bad example because not only can he not even come close to a .300 average anymore and might not get close to 30 homers. It's highly possible that he's done. On top of that, he's a bigger problem to the team at this point because he has tested positive for a powerful steroid and accused a teammate of doing the same. There's no comparison between the two in at least the last 3 years, maybe more.

 

Ooo, K's/9 innings, really important stat to the team in the long run. Wins, ERA, and to a lesser extent innings pitched is what is important to a real major league team. K's might be important to a fantasy team, but teams couldn't care less about strikeouts as long as the guy pitches. I don't see how you can assume that Prior is going to be a stud pitcher and an ace for the next ten years for a few reasons. First off, he's never pitched a full season without getting hurt. He's only pitched more than 170 innings once. On top of that, pitchers are generally at a much higher risk for a major injury than position players. There's no way you can reliably say that Prior will be an ace, or even an above average pitcher, for any considerable length of time with any kind of certainty. In fact, the existing evidence would suggest the opposite.

 

The Allan Houston comparison to Manny Ramirez is absolutely ludicrous. First off, Houston wasn't that good a player to begin with. Secondly, Houston plays a sport where mobility and athleticism play a huge role in their effectiveness, whereas Manny doesn't even remotely rely on speed. Thirdly, (is that even a word?) Houston suffered a major injury that drastically cut his production, whereas Manny has no history of major injuries whatsoever (he's missed a few games, but who hasn't?). There is simply no indication that Manny's play is in decline. In fact, he posted the best power numbers he's had since 1999 this past season. Manny may be 33, but he's far from injury prone and is still hitting very well. Using your logic Bonds should have been done a long time ago, as well as some HOF'ers like Aaron, Cobb, and Ruth. He's a much safer bet to play consistently in the next 3 years than Prior. After that the entire money argument is pretty mute because Prior will almost certainly be overpaid by some team that is thrilled with his potential, even if he has another injury next year. He also may be on another team shortly after that, as Prior isn't locked up that long. On top of that, Manny still may be able to provide another solid 2 years or so after this contract is up, probably at a much lower price. You're really reaching with that argument.

 

Way to cite the Cubs as an example of chemistry. We all know that they are a team that regularly finds excuses for their poor play instead of realizing that their team is simply not that good. Chemistry is often overrated, especially when the talent is superior. Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig weren't exactly friends when those teams were in their prime. Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent hardly spoke to each other during their WS run. And most importantly, Manny himself was a key cog on a World Series team a little over a year ago. Occasionally, a team can overachieve if everyone gets along and the team blends together well (in fact, that almost certainly happened with the Red Sox last year despite Manny's presence). However, that is far from a necessity on a winning team.

 

"One hitter does not an All-star slugger make." That's a wonderful phrase that makes absolutely no sense. I assume you are trying to say that Manny has benefitted from having excellent players in his lineup and that makes him a better player. I suppose that you could also argue that one hitter doesn't affect the lineup that dramatically. First off, protection is overrated. You can look at guys like Vlad, Barry, and Pujols (lot of injuries this year, plus Rolen was still in Philly for part of his career, and Edmonds isn't usually a good enough hitter to draw anywhere near as much concern as Pujols) that produce in fairly weak lineups. Those players also show you that an above average offense can be fashioned around one elite hitter, and that one player can make all the difference. That can't really be said about starting pitchers, since they could only possibly influence 35 games and those games can still be blown by a weak offense, bullpen, or to a lesser extent defense.

 

Your argument has holes in it, since Ramirez often didn't hit around the stars. Ramirez didn't come into the league hitting in the middle of the order, and Albert Belle was just leaving when Ramirez hit his prime. Thome needed another year or two to develop also. More importantly, Ortiz didn't land on the Red Sox until 2003, and Big Papi was a good but not elite hitter in that year. In Ortiz's case it's more likely that the reverse is true, since Ortiz was a scrub in Minnesota and didn't break out until he moved up in the lineup in Boston. Besides those not so minor details, if you really think that hitting around those kind of players really has enough of an impact to drop Manny out of the top 10 hitters in the league, you're beyond help.

 

Manny might be overpaid, but he's still one of the best players in the league. Also, the track record of his teams shows you that he has a big impact on his team's results, unlike most of Prior's career. Prior has only been an elite starter for one season, and another of his 4 partial seasons was below average. Prior is more moveable because not only is he still affordable since he is still on his rookie contract but his team is dumb enough to trade a potential ace pitcher. The Red Sox have had chances to deal Manny (at least to Texas and the Mets, possibly more we haven't heard about), but weren't going to do it unless it made sense for the team. Wait a couple of years and Prior will be considerably harder to move if he underacheives.

 

Sorry for the threadjack. You can go back to your lives now.

Edited December 28, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[RockRaines]

zoom, Nice.

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

And why not? We get 3 pitchers for the price of one, but again I would not do thise deal because of Boston potential Rotation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cuz you NEVER trade quality for quantity!!!