Official NBA Discussion Thread

[Jordan4life_2007]

On further analysis, the only real SG of any note that it appears we could get in FA this year is Bonzi Wells, who isn't exactly a guy I would really want. I suppose we could add Bobby Jackson and go with a multi-combo guard approach, although that doesn't really solve the size issue. I still think Hinrich/Aldridge is going to give us a better chance to win than Gordon/Chandler/Williams. Unless he steps up a bit Gordon is starting to move towards Jamal Crawford territory.

 

I'm assuming you haven't watched much of Ben Gordon of late.

[ZoomSlowik]

I'm assuming you haven't watched much of Ben Gordon of late.

 

He did a lot of the same things in spurts last year too. If he's still doing this in March and April, I might reconsider. Until then, it's still just a decent run in my book. Plus he's probably not going to have too many 20 shot plus games if we add O'Neal.

Edited February 17, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[nitetrain8601]

He did a lot of the same things in spurts last year too. If he's still doing this in March and April, I might reconsider. Until then, it's still just a decent run in my book. Plus he's probably not going to have too many 20 shot plus games if we add O'Neal.

 

Gordon's shot selection has vastly improved, he shoots a pretty damn good percentage, his penetration is better and so are his handles. They're even starting to use him at PG a little right now. He even had 6 assists tonight. Gordon simply gets severely underrated around here.

 

Also, Hinrich has never shot a good percentage in his career. It's not that he has a lack of a big man, it's that he's just a bad shooter, period. And I don't want to hear crap that Eddy isn't a post inside presence because he does draw double teams. Hinrich is vastly overrated around here. I guess as long as you try, you get a pass by the fans.

 

BTW, he has statistically improved in points, assists, and shooting percentage, though he's FT percentage is down.

Edited February 17, 2006 by nitetrain8601

[ZoomSlowik]

Gordon's shot selection has vastly improved, he shoots a pretty damn good percentage, his penetration is better and so are his handles. They're even starting to use him at PG a little right now. He even had 6 assists tonight. Gordon simply gets severely underrated around here.

 

Also, Hinrich has never shot a good percentage in his career. It's not that he has a lack of a big man, it's that he's just a bad shooter, period. And I don't want to hear crap that Eddy isn't a post inside presence because he does draw double teams. Hinrich is vastly overrated around here. I guess as long as you try, you get a pass by the fans.

 

Of late, yes, his percentage is a bit better. He still turns it over a fairly good amount for a non-primary ball handler, and his assists aren't exactly piling up. I guess we're just supposed to give him a pass for those first two months though, apparently we're not supposed to count those even though the NBA does. Two bad months followed by two good months doesn't equal massive steps forward. As I said, if he does it for another two months, maybe I'll start to consider him a more legit option as our SG of the future, but not yet. I heard the same crap about Curry with the way he finished the season two years ago, and a year later he's overpaid and on a last place team. The same thing was said about Chandler, and he obviously took a step back to start the year. It's not necessarily a sign of progress. More likely it's a sign of inconsistency resulting from a lack of experience.

 

Hinrich might not be an elite shooter, but Gordon isn't exactly smoking him this year (41.7 to 40.4), or last year (41.1 to 39.7). I'm supposed to get excited over about one more made shot out of 100? Hinrich is also a much better passer, turns it over at about the same frequency even tough he's the primary ballhandler, and still produces a similar point total while taking fewer shots. On top of that, he's an above average defender as opposed to a liability. You're getting all giddy about 6 assists from Gordon when Hinrich averages more than that. Hinrich is definitely an above average PG, you can't say the same about Gordon at SG at this point in his career.

 

As for Curry, he was a decent post option, but he was not an elite scorer that people consistently game plan against. I don't recall him getting constant double teams, and he frequently got most of his points in the first quarter while not doing much in the second half. O'Neal would be a proven All-star that has averaged 20 points per game for the last 4 years. There's a bit of a difference. The latter is a lot more likely to create some more open looks for Hinrich than the former, and the improved rebounding and shot blocking could lead to a few more transition opportunities. He likely wouldn't become a great shooter, but he has been getting a little better every year.

[nitetrain8601]

Of late, yes, his percentage is a bit better. He still turns it over a fairly good amount for a non-primary ball handler, and his assists aren't exactly piling up. I guess we're just supposed to give him a pass for those first two months though, apparently we're not supposed to count those even though the NBA does. Two bad months followed by two good months doesn't equal massive steps forward. As I said, if he does it for another two months, maybe I'll start to consider him a more legit option as our SG of the future, but not yet. I heard  the same crap about Curry with the way he finished the season two years ago, and a year later he's overpaid and on a last place team. The same thing was said about Chandler, and he obviously took a step back to start the year. It's not necessarily a sign of progress. More likely it's a sign of inconsistency resulting from a lack of experience.

 

Hinrich might not be an elite shooter, but Gordon isn't exactly smoking him this year (41.7 to 40.4), or last year (41.1 to 39.7). I'm supposed to get excited over about one more made shot out of 100? Hinrich is also a much better passer, turns it over at about the same frequency even tough he's the primary ballhandler, and still produces a similar point total while taking fewer shots. On top of that, he's an above average defender as opposed to a liability. You're getting all giddy about 6 assists from Gordon when Hinrich averages more than that. Hinrich is definitely an above average PG, you can't say the same about Gordon at SG at this point in his career.

 

As for Curry, he was a decent post option, but he was not an elite scorer that people consistently game plan against. I don't recall him getting constant double teams, and he frequently got most of his points in the first quarter while not doing much in the second half. O'Neal would be a proven All-star that has averaged 20 points per game for the last 4 years. There's a bit of a difference. The latter is a lot more likely to create some more open looks for Hinrich  than the former, and the improved rebounding and shot blocking could lead to a few more transition opportunities. He likely wouldn't become a great shooter, but he has been getting a little better every year.

 

His percentage has been up all season long. And I'm not saying that Hinrich isn't the better player now, but he is not worth giving up Gordon, 2 first round picks, and Chandler for. That's simply overrating Hinrich big time.

[DBAHO]

Brian Scalabrine played 34 minutes tonight and had 0 rebounds. Certainly worth that 5 year/15M contract.

[Spiff]

Brian Scalabrine played 34 minutes tonight and had 0 rebounds. Certainly worth that 5 year/15M contract.

 

Scalabrine played LAST night. But picking on him has been done so many times it's beyond cliche. He does play better defense than I thought though.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Scalabrine played LAST night.  But picking on him has been done so many times it's beyond cliche.  He does play better defense than I thought though.

 

I think they're a couple of days behind in australia.

[DBAHO]

Scalabrine played LAST night.  But picking on him has been done so many times it's beyond cliche.  He does play better defense than I thought though.

Ahh my bad, I was reading an article on FoxSports about it.

 

But seriously giving him 5 years was just a terrible decision, and he doesn't deserve the minutes he's getting at the moment (albeit Boston are short on bigs).

[ZoomSlowik]

His percentage has been up all season long. And I'm not saying that Hinrich isn't the better player now, but he is not worth giving up Gordon, 2 first round picks, and Chandler for. That's simply overrating Hinrich big time.

 

How has his percentage been up all season? He shot under 38% from the field for the first two months. That's pretty pathetic. And I'm supposed to believe he's this great shooting guard because of a month and a half of good play? Come on. Even at his current 42.1% for the season, that doesn't really make up for his other deficiencies as much as you would like to think (unless he keeps averaging 20 points per game for long stretches, which I personally doubt will happen).

 

You're twisting the question. The equation is not Gordon, Chandler, and two picks versus Hinrich, it's versus Hinrich and the Knick's pick. If it's in the top 2, which it looks like it will be, that pick is worth considerably more than the other two picks. There's a big difference between LaMarcus Aldridge and Rudy Gay versus the rest of this draft class.

 

I also should have made this next comment earlier, but I didn't think of it. Because of league rules, it couldn't just be Hinrich and the pick for O'Neal. I forgot the exact percentage since they recently changed it, but there can only be so much difference in salary between the players involved. O'Neal is making over $18 mil per season, Hinrich is making under $3 mil per season. We would have to throw in another significant contract anyways, and the only one we have past this season is Chandler (or I suppose several smaller contracts, but Indiana probably wouldn't want a 4-1 deal). We might have had to throw him in on the deal anyways. Hinrich might be a pretty solid PG that I and others like, but we're talking about trading for an All-star PF/C that is conservatively a top 20 player in the league.

Edited February 17, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[nitetrain8601]

You're twisting the question. The equation is not Gordon, Chandler, and two picks versus Hinrich, it's versus Hinrich and the Knick's pick. If it's in the top 2, which it looks like it will be, that pick is worth considerably more than the other two picks. There's a big difference between LaMarcus Aldridge and Rudy Gay versus the rest of this draft class.

 

Actually it is. I rather give up Hinrich and 1 pick than completely overhaul the core minus the "great" Kirk Hinrich. And what we need is a big man anyway. The trade for JO would lead us to no need for Aldridge. We already have Deng and Nocioni, so there isn't a need for Gay either if the trade is Hinrich and the 1st.

 

I also should have made this next comment earlier, but I didn't think of it. Because of league rules, it couldn't just be Hinrich and the pick for O'Neal. I forgot the exact percentage since they recently changed it, but there can only be so much difference in salary between the players involved. O'Neal is making over $18 mil per season, Hinrich is making under $3 mil per season. We would have to throw in another significant contract anyways, and the only one we have past this season is Chandler (or I suppose several smaller contracts, but Indiana probably wouldn't want a 4-1 deal). We might have had to throw him in on the deal anyways. Hinrich might be a pretty solid PG that I and others like, but we're talking about trading for an All-star PF/C that is conservatively a top 20 player in the league.

 

Um yes it can. Since the Bulls will be 15 million under the cap this offseason(probably more, especially if the cap is set at 50 million which is projected), they can pull off that trade. As long as the trade does not put you over the cap, then matching salaries do not have to be included.

[ZoomSlowik]

Actually it is. I rather give up Hinrich and 1 pick than completely overhaul the core minus the "great" Kirk Hinrich. And what we need is a big man anyway. The trade for JO would lead us to no need for Aldridge. We already have Deng and Nocioni, so there isn't a need for Gay either if the trade is Hinrich and the 1st.

Um yes it can. Since the Bulls will be 15 million under the cap this offseason(probably more, especially if the cap is set at 50 million which is projected), they can pull off that trade. As long as the trade does not put you over the cap, then matching salaries do not have to be included.

 

How can you not "need" a guy that has a distinct possibility of being the next Chris Bosh or Amare Stoudemire? How is three new starters all that different from two new starters? How is keeping Gordon that much better than keeping Hinrich? You're choosing a guy who does nothing but score over a guy that is a pretty good all-around player, and you're still going to have Deng and O'Neal in either scenario. The difference is Hinrich and Aldridge for about $5 mil (at least for next year, Hinrich will need an extension) versus Gordon and Chandler for about $13 mil (for at least the next two years, then Gordon needs an extension) plus two draft picks that probably won't contribute for a while. We actually save money doing it the other way, and it's a lot easier to find a decent starting SG than it is to find a decent starting PG on the market (no, Duhon doesn't cut it).

 

I'll admit I'm not entirely sure of what they changed, but the NBA once had a rule that salaries for players involved in trades had to be within like 20% of each other. I don't think they absolutely dropped the rule, although I'm pretty sure the restrictions have changed. Even if it is gone, there's not guarantee that the Pacers would even take Hinrich and the Knick's pick for O'Neal. Hinrich doesn't fill a pressing need since they already have Tinsley, and Aldridge would basically just replace O'Neal (Gay would fit slightly better, but that would leave quite a hole up front for them, and Jackson is a credible option). With the other deal, Gordon slides into the two guard spot, Chandler fills in where O'Neal was, and they get two other picks. That seems like it would fit their team better. We on the other hand would be getting two very solid big men, which fills a major hole, while still having two pretty strong perimeter players in Hinrich and Deng. The latter deal probably works better for both teams, meaning it has a better chance of happening.

 

Also, I've said in the past that Gay isn't a good fit for the Bulls. However, that pick has a ton of value to other teams if he is there. Rudy Gay is worth considerably more than the guards you could get at #10 like Maurice Ager or Brandon Rush, and a pick in the same range (or lower) the following year probably isn't going to produce anything better. If we can't get Aldridge with that pick, then I'd be willing to deal it to Indiana. If Gordon's really as good as you think he is, then we'd be able to do basically the same deal.

 

The whole argument comes down to Hinrich versus Gordon, and we're obviously not going to change each other's minds on the topic. I tend to think that having a solid PG that plays good defense, runs the offense, and is a decent option offensively is more valuable and harder to replace than a streaky, undersized 2 guard that is more suspect as a ballhandler. Feel free to keep defending you opinion, but I disagree.

[GoodAsGould]

Zoom you really need to shorten your posts lol..... I can read a couple but every single one is sooo long

[hammerhead johnson]

Marcus Camby won't be remembered 50 years from now for his defense.  In order to do that you have to be a part of great teams or be the best defensive player at your position during your career.  Camby fits neither of those criteria and his injury problems won't help his case.  Legendary defensive players are guys like Bill Russell, Dennis Rodman, and Scottie Pippen not Marcus Camby.

 

Are you trying to tell me that I'm wrong? I'll have to agree to disagree, Mr. Hot Chick.

 

The two best defensive centers of all time could (hypothetically) play during the same era, so the "One And Only" concept doesn't register here. If I say Gale Sayers was one of the greatest RBs of all time, you can't come back at me and say "Well he was always injured!". That's fine, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was brilliant when helathy.

 

Right now, Camby would make my Top 20 Defenders List since the late 60s. That's why I went as far as to say that he'll be remembered long after he's gone by people who follow basketball on a day-to-day basis/students of the game kind of like ZoomSlowik or something (read: no casual fans). I know, who am I to put together a list like that, since I've only been following basketball since the mid-to-late 80s.

 

Here it is, though. All off the top of my head, so don't bark at me if I forget someone.

 

Walt Frazier

Gary Payton

Michael Jordan (best ever defensive SG)

Dave DeBuschere

Scottie Pippen (best ever defensive SF)

Bobby Jones

Sidney Moncrief

Bruce Bowen

Ron Artest

Dennis Rodman (best ever defensive PF)

Ben Wallace

Kevin Garnett

Nate Thurmond

David Robinson

Bill Russell

Hakeem Olajuwan

Dikembe Mutombo

Marcus Camby

Tim Duncan

Alonzo Mourning

 

Right now, active players who already are defensive legends or will be IMO:

 

Ben Wallace

Alonzo Mourning

Bruce Bowen

Ron Artest

Kevin Garnett

Tim Duncan

Tayshaun Prince

Marcus Camby

Andrei Kirilenko

 

and.....

 

Yep, you guessed it.

[Balta1701]

Yep, you guessed it. 

Frank Stallone?

[hammerhead johnson]

Frank Stallone?

 

That's exactly right.

[whitesoxfan99]

Are you trying to tell me that I'm wrong?  I'll have to agree to disagree, Mr. Hot Chick. 

 

The two best defensive centers of all time could (hypothetically) play during the same era, so the "One And Only" concept doesn't register here.  If I say Gale Sayers was one of the greatest RBs of all time, you can't come back at me and say "Well he was always injured!".  That's fine, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was brilliant when helathy.

 

Right now, Camby would make my Top 20 Defenders List since the late 60s.  That's why I went as far as to say that he'll be remembered long after he's gone by people who follow basketball on a day-to-day basis/students of the game kind of like ZoomSlowik or something (read: no casual fans).  I know, who am I to put together a list like that, since I've only been following basketball since the mid-to-late 80s. 

 

Here it is, though.  All off the top of my head, so don't bark at me if I forget someone.

 

Walt Frazier

Gary Payton

Michael Jordan (best ever defensive SG)

Dave DeBuschere

Scottie Pippen (best ever defensive SF)

Bobby Jones

Sidney Moncrief

Bruce Bowen

Ron Artest

Dennis Rodman (best ever defensive PF)

Ben Wallace

Kevin Garnett

Nate Thurmond

David Robinson

Bill Russell

Hakeem Olajuwan

Dikembe Mutombo

Marcus Camby

Tim Duncan

Alonzo Mourning

 

Right now, active players who already are defensive legends or will be IMO:

 

Ben Wallace

Alonzo Mourning

Bruce Bowen

Ron Artest

Kevin Garnett

Tim Duncan

Tayshaun Prince

Marcus Camby

Andrei Kirilenko

 

and.....

 

Yep, you guessed it. 

 

Actually we are not that far off on our opinions. I think Camby is one of the best defenders of this era who has received very little recognition for his abilities outside of the most avid followers of the NBA. And I agree that he may be remembered by those followers 50 years from now (the post I was replying to just said he will be remembered 50 years from now, I mininterpreted your meaning).

 

The problems with "remembering" Camby is that he has had no accolades and has no championships. He has made all defensive team only once and has no all star appearances. And that is directly related to his injury problems. As for my post on being the best defender at your position in your era you are correct that you can have the best 2 or 3 at that position defensively around the same period of time. That was more in reference to the casual fan than anything else. I don't think Camby 50 years from now will be remembered as a defensive legend outside of a select group of fans as most people just don't remember defense unless the person is also an all time great player which Camby is not.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I really dislike injury-prone players and find a hard time giving them much accolades.

[ZoomSlowik]

Zoom you really need to shorten your posts lol..... I can read a couple but every single one is sooo long 

 

Sorry, that's just my writing style. I like to try to make sure I hit all my points, and it ends up being a lot longer than the average post.

 

Frankly, I think I should be getting at least 2:1 credit on my posts.

 

Hammer seems to like me though, that might be the first compliment I've ever seen him give anyone in an NBA thread.

Edited February 17, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[Palehosefan]

Jordan's new ad, beautiful.

 

http://www.mackcut.com/view_project.asp?id=4F095E86BB77AE74

[greasywheels121]

Nice. I like that.

[DBAHO]

More Francis news (I honestly can't believe this many teams would be interested in him);

 

HOUSTON -- Steve-O in the same backcourt with Kobe?

 

Add the Los Angeles Lakers to the list of possible suitors for Orlando Magic guard Steve Francis.

 

  The Lakers are "aggressively" pursuing a trade that would send forward Lamar Odom to the Magic for Francis in a multiplayer deal, NBA sources told the Orlando Sentinel today.

 

Odom, a 6-foot-10, 230-pound forward, is an all-around player lost in Kobe Bryant's immense shadow with the Lakers. He was acquired in that megadeal involving Shaquille O'Neal and the Miami Heat.

 

Odom, who is averaging 13.9 points and 9.2 rebounds, has four more years remaining in a contract worth about $51 million.

 

Francis, who has three more years and about $48 million left on his deal, is in Houston, where he has a home and is attending the festivities involving the NBA All-Star Weekend.

 

Francis' agent, Jeff Fried, said today that the Magic haven't informed him that a trade was pending. The trade deadline is Thursday.

 

"There's no change in Steve's situation that I'm aware of," he said.

 

Asked whether Francis was resigned to being traded, Fried said, "No."

 

Fried continued, "Steve is focused on playing basketball. He just wants to play basketball and have fun playing."

 

The Magic appear to be in a rebuilding mold with the recent trade with the Detroit Pistons, focusing on getting younger and building around 20-year-old Dwight Howard. The Magic acquired forward Darko Milicic, 21, and point guard Carlos Arroyo, 26, from the Pistons for Kevlin Cato and a conditional first-round draft pick.

 

Odom is 26 while Francis turns 29 on Tuesday.

 

The Lakers aren't the only team interested in Francis.

 

The Houston Rockets -- Francis' former team -- have picked up interest in the past few days to make a "dramatic move" with the Magic.

 

The Rockets traded Francis, Cuttino Mobley and Kelvin Cato to the Magic in the summer of 2004 for Francis, Juwan Howard, Tyronn Lue and Reece Gaines. It is not clear which players the Magic would take back in returning Francis to Houston, although they could be looking for players with expiring, cap-friendly contracts.

 

The Seattle SuperSonics also have called about Francis, and might be offering point guard Luke Ridnour as part of a deal, the source said. Other teams rumored to be linked to Francis are the New York Knicks and the Denver Nuggets.

 

The Knicks might be able to offer the best package of young players such as Jamal Crawford, former Florida Gator Davis Lee, Trevor Ariza and Nate Robinson.

 

The Nuggets, according to various reports, would send forward Nene' and point guard Earl Watson for Francis. They also might be trying to trade forward Kenyon Martin.

 

EDIT: I also heard Stephen A Smith on TNT said Francis would only report to Denver if they put a gun to his head. Oh goody.

 

But if we got Odom, suddenly we'd have the biggest frontcourt in the NBA.

 

SF - Odom 6'10

PF - Dwight 6'11

C - Darko - 7'1

 

Can you just imagine the shot blocking oppurtunities (thinking of you here Hammer).

[whitesoxfan101]

If there is such thing as a guard version of Chris Webber, it is Steve Francis.

 

And Francis with Kobe in the same backcourt....lol.

[Palehosefan]

The only person who can hold Kobe under 30 ppg is Steve Francis. I would love to see that go down. Go from totally unselfish Odom to Steve, I'm sure Kobe wouldn't mind, right?

[DBAHO]

The only person who can hold Kobe under 30 ppg is Steve Francis. I would love to see that go down. Go from totally unselfish Odom to Steve, I'm sure Kobe wouldn't mind, right?

And don't forget 2 seasons ago, Lamar Odom was pretty damn good in Miami. If he could return to that form for Orlando, it would be a big win for us. But I've heard Phil Jackson thinks Francis can do well in the Triangle Offense, hence the interest in him.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what Arroyo can do as well. He's pretty much the only pass first point guard we have on the roster. Jameer Nelson I can stand, because he doesn't turn the ball over as much, plus I think he's a better defender then Francis.

 

I'm also thinking, we're gonna draft J.J Redick now, since we need an outside shooting SG. If we get about the 5th/6th pick, that's probably the way we're gonna go.