Official NBA Discussion Thread

[DBAHO]

It's a good deal for both teams.  You've already stated what it does for the Magic.  For Detroit,  they get an expiring k that will not only help them resign Ben Wallace,  but put them in better position to extend Billups before he becomes a free agent in 07.  Two,  Cato is a very effective player in the right situation.  He's a good defender and shotblocker and would really be useful if the Pistons and Heat meet up again.  I'll have to wait and see what the final restrictions will be on the draft pick before really commenting on it.

I read an article that said the Pistons were going to wave Cato if they acquired him.

 

Cato can play ok, but he needs to be motivated to do so, and he's so injury prone. I'm sure Spiff would tell you he's nothing but a bust at the money he's earning.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I read an article that said the Pistons were going to wave Cato if they acquired him.

 

Cato can play ok, but he needs to be motivated to do so, and he's so injury prone. I'm sure Spiff would tell you he's nothing but a bust at the money he's earning.

 

Really? Wow. Cato was solid when he was in Houston. You can never have enough bigs when you're going up against Shaq. I think Cato would flourish in a back-up role in Detroit.

[DBAHO]

Really?  Wow.  Cato was solid when he was in Houston.  You can never have enough bigs when you're going up against Shaq.  I think Cato would flourish in a back-up role in Detroit.

If he stayed healthy, I'd probably agree with you. That was only the opinion of one article though, so it may not be the case.

[DBAHO]

Ya, I gotcha.  I just hate Jamal sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

He's basically another Steve Francis who won't turn the ball over as much, but he'll hog the ball and take shot after shot. With the Magic building around Dwight, they don't need that.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

If I recall Arroyo forgot how to play before getting to Detroit. Memory serves me that he was awesome for his country in the Olympics being the man and changed his game in Utah and got in Sloan's doghouse and thus traded. Most thought being a 6th man would change his personality but it did not apparently

[whitesoxfan101]

I read an article that said the Pistons were going to wave Cato if they acquired him.

 

Of course they are. Joe Dumars knows Cato is worthless, and he's only in the deal for contract evening out reasons. Dumars is the best GM in the game for a reason, watch that 1st rounder he got turn out to be some stud player. Even in a trade like this where Detroit seems to be getting beaten, they will probably end up winning.

[Balta1701]

Dumars is the best GM in the game for a reason, watch that 1st rounder he got turn out to be some stud player.

Like Milicic?

[Jordan4life_2007]

This just in...The Knicks won a game. I repeat...The Knicks won a game.

[greasywheels121]

This just in...The Knicks won a game.  I repeat...The Knicks won a game.

 

Heh. Wilbon called that on PTI.

[Jordan4life_2007]

That Lebron dude had a pretty good game. 43 points/12reb/11asst/4blk

[qwerty]

That Lebron dude had a pretty good game.  43 points/12reb/11asst/4blk

 

Those numbers mean nothing. He doesn't play defense remember?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Those numbers mean nothing. He doesn't play defense remember?

 

I know. I'm glad we've got Hinrich instead of Lebron. Cuck the Fubs made me see the light.

[SSH2005]

Like Milicic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ROFL, good point.

[Balta1701]

I know.  I'm glad we've got Hinrich instead of Lebron.  Cuck the Fubs made me see the light.

Given that Darko, Melo, Bosh, Wade, and Chris Kaman all went between us and Lebron...I'd say we came out as good as could be expected. But I'd have been happy to trade Brand and the 7th pick for Bron. Wait, what, we traded Brand? You're kidding me!

[ZoomSlowik]

I was just flipping through my new SI, and in the NBA mid-season section there was a picture of Jermaine O'Neal in a Bulls' jersey. Apparently, they were advocating that the Bulls trade Kirk Hinrich and the Knicks' pick for him. While getting O'Neal would be nice, I'm not sure I like that.

 

For one, the Knicks' pick could net us LaMarcus Aldride, who could easily produce as well as Jermaine in two or three years at a much lower price.

 

Second, Hinrich is one of the few players on the Bulls I'd actually like to see stay around. We'd almost certainly end up taking a guard with our own pick in the draft were that to happen, and this isn't the greatest group. That would leave us with a backcourt built around Duhon, Gordon, and the rookie, which isn't exactly stellar.

 

Lastly, it seems that O'Neal has become fairly injury prone, since he is out for the season and was bothered by a foot problem most of last year. That's not exactly what you want to see when you're dealing your starting PG and a very high pick.

 

While the move would net us a bonafide All-star, I'm not so sure it makes us all that much better. Is a lineup of Duhon, Gordon, Deng, O"Neal, and Chandler going to push us into contending status in the East? I personally don't think so. It's another story if we could somehow keep Hinrich, but I realize that would drastically reduce the chances of the trade happening (would they even want Hinrich? Tinsley is a fairly good PG in his own right, albiet he also has some injury problems).

Edited February 16, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[Balta1701]

Right now I would be really angry if we had to give up that Kicks's pick, especially if it took us giving up Hinrich and all it got back was a guy who has had repeated injuries that have cost him a lot of games the last 2 seasons.

[ZoomSlowik]

Right now I would be really angry if we had to give up that Kicks's pick, especially if it took us giving up Hinrich and all it got back was a guy who has had repeated injuries that have cost him a lot of games the last 2 seasons.

 

I'd love it if we could somehow turn Gordon, Chandler, our pick, and our #1 next year into O'Neal, but that seems a little light for a player of his caliber. If we do the proposed trade, I think we move into the same territory as the Timberwolves and Garnett: simply not having enough players around the star to win big.

 

Honestly, if after the lottery it doesn't look like we'd be able to get Aldridge with the Knick's pick, I'd be willing to deal it. We're not really going to get any immediate help with that pick unless we could get him.

[Balta1701]

I'd love it if we could somehow turn Gordon, Chandler, our pick, and our #1 next year into O'Neal, but that seems a little light for a player of his caliber. If we do the proposed trade, I think we move into the same territory as the Timberwolves and Garnett: simply not having enough players around the star to win big.

 

Honestly, if after the lottery it doesn't look like we'd be able to get Aldridge with the Knick's pick, I'd be willing to deal it. We're not really going to get any immediate help with that pick unless we could get him.

Well, just remember, Chris Paul wasn't the #1 pick last year either. Just because you don't have the #1 pick doens't mean you can't turn it into something solid. Right now it looks like the worst possible case scenario would mean that Knick pick will be top 5, and it has a very very high probability of being top 3. And if the Knicks stay in their current free-fall for much longer, it will have a good chance of being 1-2.

 

It's also worth noting that right now the only team with a worse record than the Knicks is Charlotte, and Charlotte may well decide they're not in the market for another big guy this year, with Okafor, May, and Brezec all on their team (is Brezec a FA this year?). It's also possible that Okafor could come back sometime in March and push them ahead of the Knicks record.

[ZoomSlowik]

Well, just remember, Chris Paul wasn't the #1 pick last year either.  Just because you don't have the #1 pick doens't mean you can't turn it into something solid.  Right now it looks like the worst possible case scenario would mean that Knick pick will be top 5, and it has a very very high probability of being top 3.  And if the Knicks stay in their current free-fall for much longer, it will have a good chance of being 1-2.

 

It's also worth noting that right now the only team with a worse record than the Knicks is Charlotte, and Charlotte may well decide they're not in the market for another big guy this year, with Okafor, May, and Brezec all on their team (is Brezec a FA this year?).  It's also possible that Okafor could come back sometime in March and push them ahead of the Knicks record.

 

In some draft classes that is true, but not so much this year. There simply aren't many potential instant impact players (or future impact players for that matter), and the other ones are poor fits for the Bulls. Rudy Gay might be a stud, but we already have two fairly good SF's, and one of them is a potential star. I don't think Deng or Gay could play SG or PF, so that wouldn't work. Rodney Carney is similar to Gay. so that also won't work. The same is true for Adam Morrison, who I personally think is going to be a bust anyways. He's probably too slow to keep up with most NBA SF's and I'm not sure he can be a solid 3-point shooter in the NBA. Rajon Rondo is another guy that can probably be decent his first year, but the last thing we need is another 6'2" guard that probably is better at the 2. Reddick is the only other one that looks like he could be effective in his first year, and I'm not a fan of his either. He's another undersized SG with limited ball-handling and playmaking ability just like Gordon, only on top of that he's less athletic, isn't as good at creating his own shot, and will suffer in the NBA if he doesn't get all the calls like he does at Duke.

 

I suppose they can take one of the foreign big men like Bagnani or Splitter, but they're kind of raw, Bagnani is more perimeter oriented, and Splitter has some buyout issues. Brandon Rush could be another interesting pick, but he probably isn't going to contribute right away. You also probably don't need a top 5 pick to get him, although he might not be there for our second pick.

 

The only other guys I could possibly see as good fits for the Bulls are Shelden Williams, Paul Davis, Maurice Ager, Randy Foye, and Ronnie Brewer. Those guys are all less than inspiring, and we could probably get them with our own pick.

Edited February 16, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[WHarris1]

Wilbon called that on PTI.

Still waiting for them to make the playoffs.

[Balta1701]

Portland's Sebastian Telfair caught trying to bring a gun onto a plane at Boston's Logan Airport.

[whitesoxfan101]

Portland's Sebastian Telfair caught trying to bring a gun onto a plane at Boston's Logan Airport.

 

Return of the Jail Blazers!!

[nitetrain8601]

I'd love it if we could somehow turn Gordon, Chandler, our pick, and our #1 next year into O'Neal, but that seems a little light for a player of his caliber. If we do the proposed trade, I think we move into the same territory as the Timberwolves and Garnett: simply not having enough players around the star to win big.

 

Honestly, if after the lottery it doesn't look like we'd be able to get Aldridge with the Knick's pick, I'd be willing to deal it. We're not really going to get any immediate help with that pick unless we could get him.

 

I think you simply are overrating Hinrich in this case then. You're willing to give up our starting SG(who's shown progression so far), our only decent big man, and 2 first round picks for JO, but not Hinrich and the Knicks pick?

 

Let's look at the lineups in comparisons.

 

PG-Chris Duhon

SG-Ben Gordon

SF-Luol Deng

PF-Jermaine O'Neal

C-Tyson Chandler

 

1st round pick(ours)

Andres Nocioni

Othella Harrington

Darius Songalia

Jannero Pargo

Eddie Basden

Eric Piatowski

 

or

 

PG-Kirk Hinrich

SG-??

SF-Luol Deng

PF-Jermaine O'Neal

C-Othella Harrington

 

1st round pick(though I don't ever think the Pacers would ever deal JO for a non-top 3 pick if picks are involved)

Nocioni

Songalia

Pargo

Piatowski

Badsen

 

I prefer the first team much much more. Hinrich is going to cost you alot in terms of cash which means little flexibility. I rather keep the cheaper and efficient Duhon and most of our starting lineup. I think that's another need this team needs. Continual development of chemistry. We can't keep drastically changing starting lineups from year to year.

[ZoomSlowik]

I think you simply are overrating Hinrich in this case then. You're willing to give up our starting SG(who's shown progression so far), our only decent big man, and 2 first round picks for JO, but not Hinrich and the Knicks pick?

 

Let's look at the lineups in comparisons.

 

PG-Chris Duhon

SG-Ben Gordon

SF-Luol Deng

PF-Jermaine O'Neal

C-Tyson Chandler

 

1st round pick(ours)

Andres Nocioni

Othella Harrington

Darius Songalia

Jannero Pargo

Eddie Basden

Eric Piatowski

 

or

 

PG-Kirk Hinrich

SG-??

SF-Luol Deng

PF-Jermaine O'Neal

C-Othella Harrington

 

1st round pick(though I don't ever think the Pacers would ever deal JO for a non-top 3 pick if picks are involved)

Nocioni

Songalia

Pargo

Piatowski

Badsen

 

I prefer the first team much much more. Hinrich is going to cost you alot in terms of cash which means little flexibility. I rather keep the cheaper and efficient Duhon and most of our starting lineup. I think that's another need this team needs. Continual development of chemistry. We can't keep drastically changing starting lineups from year to year.

 

I think you're overrating Gordon more than anything. He's undersized, is a suspect ballhandler, has no sense of shot selection, and is rather inconsistent on top of that. I'd personally rather hang onto a 14 point per game scorer that can run an offense and pass the ball fairly effectively than a 16 point per game scorer that offers nothing else. How exactly has Gordon developed anyways? He's almost exactly the same in every statistical area of his game, and fewer of his exploits are coming in crunch time this year. If anything I'd say he's stayed the same or regressed.

 

Hinrich's only real flaw is his shooting percentage, and that could go up with a real post threat on the team. I'd rather have Hinrich more than Duhon too, at least as a starter. I just don't think Chris can be a starting PG on a good team, while I think Hinrich can. Chris is just too suspect as a scoring option. We could still conceivably start those two anyways.

 

There's a very big difference in the value of the two picks too, depending on where the Knicks end up. You're talking about a suspect big man that can't play center like Al Horford or Shelden Williams with our pick as opposed to a potential star like Aldridge. One of those guys is a legit starter as a rookie, the others aren't. If we can't get Aldridge with their pick, then it's another story. But a late lotto pick this year and probably a mid-first rounder next year isn't all that much to give up when compared with a top 5 pick that could net a promising big man.

 

Also, the financial flexibilty is pretty much a push when comparing the two deals. You factor in the difference between Hinrich and Duhon's salaries without factoring in the difference between Chandler's and Aldridge's. If anything, you save money by dealing Chandler instead. We can then add a SG that isn't undersized that can actually play some defense. The way you want to frame the question, trading Hinrich is better. But if you consider that the only way we could get Aldridge is with the Knick's pick, and that we'd obviously be adding another guard if Gordon was dealt, then it's another story. Othella Harrington clearly wouldn't be our starting center either, Aldridge would be ahead of him.

 

However, this is all mute if it looks like we won't get Aldridge with the Knick's pick. In that case, I don't have a problem trading that pick. Regardless of that, I'd still rather keep Hinrich than Gordon. There's only one successful SG I can think of that is under 6'4", and Gordon isn't in the same league as AI.

 

You're also overrating the value of consistency in the starting lineup and trying to keep the team together. If we were actually close to winning something, I might agree. However, the team clearly isn't going anywhere, so that doesn't make any sense. So if we're going to make a major change to the lineup anyways, why wouldn't we get rid of the players that are generally causing us problems instead of one of the few things that is going right with this team? Does it really matter if we have 2 new starters or 3? I seriously doubt it.

Edited February 17, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[ZoomSlowik]

On further analysis, the only real SG of any note that it appears we could get in FA this year is Bonzi Wells, who isn't exactly a guy I would really want. I suppose we could add Bobby Jackson and go with a multi-combo guard approach, although that doesn't really solve the size issue. I still think Hinrich/Aldridge is going to give us a better chance to win than Gordon/Chandler/Williams. Unless he steps up a bit Gordon is starting to move towards Jamal Crawford territory.