How to fix the Bulls?

[Kyyle23]

You tell me a shooting guard Ben Gordon could ever guard.  Maybe Corey Benjamin.  Gordon has no defensive tools.  I will be happy if/when the Bulls deal his sorry ass.

 

I had this argument with Nite a week or so ago about Gordon. Its not worth the effort. Nite is willing to overlook the quadruple pump no look pass to the center of the key 5 times a night if Ben can put in 20 points.

 

And Nite, I would like you to explain to me what Ben Gordon knows about defensive positioning. Ben is always slapping, getting cheap fouls because people are blowing past him, he doesnt know how to go under or over screens, and he loses his man, ALOT. Also, if he knows a thing or two about defensive positioning, you would think he would draw an offensive foul or two. I cannot remember him ever drawing an offensive foul.

 

The guy can shoot, no doubt. But his other "tools" are either in the box, or were never there to begin with.

 

 

In regards to the Thread Title:

 

If the Bulls are looking to salvage the season, which is very possible, they are going to have to move the deadweight on their necks called Tim Thomas. Most likely they are going to have to package a draft pick to get something that they need, but this is something that needs to be done. That asshat is sitting at home laughing because he doesnt have to do anything to be earning 14 million dollars this year, his bench spot could be filled with a big PF or C through a trade. I know Paxson has been trying for Al Harrington for years, and that could be a possibility, I have also read that Ruben Patterson, Chris Wilcox, Melvin Ely, Stromile Swift, Desmond Mason, and Nick Collison may be available. many possibilities.

 

If the Bulls choose to let this year go, then they still need to get something for Tim Thomas. But in regards to the 6'8" "Ben Gordon" named Adam Morrison, the Bulls could use a straight up shooter like him, and still get another great pick with their other 1st round draft pick. I know another 6'8" spot up shooter who is quite a threat who has "40 year old legs", his name is Kyle Korver. He is still pretty damn good.

 

I had a feeling this year would be like this, the Bulls are kind of wandering and not making any progress. True, they arent regressing very much(even though they are slightly regressing), but they took a large chunk of offense out last year, and Sweetney hasnt been able to get up to where Eddy had finally gotten last year. It will take time, but i still think this team has a very solid core that will only get better.

[southsider2k5]

The Bulls need a big guard who can defend, and a legitmate center. The C doesn't even have to be anything special, just someone who can play decent defense, an OK scoring threat, and blockout.

[whitesoxfan101]

Considering these 2 facts....

 

1. LeBron would be the 2nd biggest player in our rotation

2. lllinois has a much bigger frontline than the Bulls

 

The Bulls need SIZE up front and DEPTH up front......draft big men with our high picks, sign a big man or 2, make a trade, whatever.....fix the fact we are tiny and can't get a damn rebound or post basket, or else we are in trouble long term.

Edited December 27, 2005 by whitesoxfan101

[Rowand44]

Most Bulls fans don't want him, but he is good.

He'll lose you more games then he wins you by far. Not only is he the worst defensive player on the team, he has the worst shooting percentage on the team and his shot selection is just horrid. Ben sucks, plain and simple and I hope we can dump his ass somehow.

[hammerhead johnson]

Has there ever been a worse FA market for SGs?

 

Ronald Murray, Seattle

Fred Jones, Indiana (Restricted)

Derek Anderson, Houston (Player option)

Jon Barry, Houston

DerMarr Johnson, Denver

Voshon Lenard, Denver

Keith Bogans, Charlotte

Anfernee Hardaway, New York

Jimmy Jackson, SG, Phoenix

Lamond Murray, New Jersey

Fred Hoiberg, Minnesota

Aaron McKie, LA Lakers (Player option)

Eric Piatkowski, Chicago

Greg Buckner, Denver (Player option)

Matt Carroll, Charlotte (Team option)

Shandon Anderson, Miami

Rawle Marshall, Dallas (Team option)

DeShawn Stevenson, Orlando (Player option)

Stacey Augmon, Orlando

Charles Smith, Portland

Linton Johnson, New Jersey

Bernard Robinson, Charlotte (Restricted)

Reece Gaines, Milwaukee

Tony Bobbitt, LA Lakers (Restricted)

Von Wafer, LA Lakers (Team option)

Alan Anderson, Charlotte (Team option)

Devin Green, LA Lakers

 

There ain't a guy worth signing on that list.

 

On the other hand, the SF market is looking good, but we already have Deng and Nocioni, so forget about any of these guys.

 

Al Harrington, Atlanta

Peja Stojakovic, Sacramento (Player option)

Bonzi Wells, Sacramento

Matt Harpring, Utah

James Posey, Miami (Player option)

John Salmons, Philadelphia (Restricted)

Ruben Patterson, Portland (Player option)

Trevor Ariza, New York (Restricted)

Devean George, LA Lakers

Devin Brown, Utah (Team option)

Walter McCarty, LA Clippers

Laron Profit, LA Lakers

Tim Thomas, Chicago

Rasual Butler, New Orleans

Jiri Welsch, Milwaukee

Eric Williams, Toronto (Player option)

Justin Reed, Boston

Jumaine Jones, Charlotte

Lee Nailon, Philadelphia

Ronald Dupree, Minnesota

Maciej Lampe, New Orleans (Restricted)

George Lynch

Adrian Griffin, Dallas

Calbert Cheaney, Golden State

Matt Barnes, Philadelphia 76ers

Bryon Russell, Denver

Ndudi Ebi

Ryan Bowen, Houston (Player option)

Toni Kukoc, Milwaukee

Sean Banks, New Orleans

Qyntel Woods, New York

Terrence Morris, Orlando

Donta Smith, Atlanta (Team option)

Shavlik Randolph, Philadelphia

 

I'd love to have Al Harrington, but it just doesn't make any sense to sign an SF to a damn near max contract. Al can play PF depending on the matchup, but he's a true SF. And besides, our PF rotation needs to be Chandler/Sweeney.

 

I think that one of the true gems in next year's FA class is Boston PG Marcus Banks. You want to talk about a guy with unbelievable defensive tools out of the PG slot? His ball-handling skills are superb. I'd love to have this guy on the Bulls. He'd come pretty cheap too.

 

I see no centers that are worth bringing in. Vanilla Gorilla is going to be overpaid. Nazr Mohammed can rebound with the best of them, but he can't do anything else effectively. I guess that I'd call him decent on the defensive end, but nothing more. He's listed at 6'10, but he's more like 6'9. He looks like f***ing Gumbi out there. He's a tad too slow to play regular minutes at PF, and besides, like I already said, our PF rotation needs to be Chandler/Sweetney.

 

It's times like these when I say to myself that I need to start paying attention to college basketball, but it's just so freaking boring IMO. With the Knicks pick, you take the best C available. I guess that would be Aldridge or whatever his name is. You take that guy without hesitation.

 

Ben Gordon needs to go. Personaly, I hate reading bulls*** trade rumors, so I'm not even gonna speculate out of my ayass. Just get him the f*** outta here and get some picks/raw up & coming players in return.

[hammerhead johnson]

I am as heated as ever with Paxson for not bringing in a body at the C slot. Otherwise, we could have put Chandler back at PF by now. Right now, Chandler weighs 235 pounds. Your typical C in this league weighs about 260 to 265 pounds. It's f***ing bogus. I want to see Chandler gain about 6 to 8 pounds this offseason and get up to Jermaine O'Neal's weight of 242 pounds, and I never, ever want to see him play center again. Even Kendrick Perkins weighs like 285 pounds. You can't be banging with guys that have unbelievably gigantic thighs and asses when you're 7'1 at 235 pounds.

 

Maybe we'll need to bring in a C who could score 12 to 15 points a game. Who is that guy? I'm just some random asshole, but if I was in Paxson's shoes, I'd have been all over Zaza Pachulia this past offseason. I am baffled as to how John Paxson can be in charge of putting together an NBA squad. He's clearly a moron.

[whitesoxfan101]

I am as heated as ever with Paxson for not bringing in a body at the C slot.  Otherwise, we could have put Chandler back at PF by now.  Right now, Chandler weighs 235 pounds.  Your typical C in this league weighs about 260 to 265 pounds.  It's f***ing bogus.  I want to see Chandler gain about 6 to 8 pounds this offseason and get up to Jermaine O'Neal's weight of 242 pounds, and I never, ever want to see him play center again.  Even Kendrick Perkins weighs like 285 pounds.  You can't be banging with guys that have unbelievably gigantic thighs and asses when you're 7'1 at 235 pounds.

 

Maybe we'll need to bring in a C who could score 12 to 15 points a game.  Who is that guy?  I'm just some random asshole, but if I was in Paxson's shoes, I'd have been all over Zaza Pachulia this past offseason.  I am baffled as to how John Paxson can be in charge of putting together an NBA squad.  He's clearly a moron.

 

Agreed 100 percent. The Fighting Illini seriously have a bigger and stronger front line than the Chicago freaking Bulls, and that is inexcuseable. The FA market blows too.....I'd like to see us being in a guy like Nazr Mohammed since he can rebound (and we need that desperately) but otherwise, we are going to have to use trades and the draft to get help up front IMO.

[qwerty]

Agreed 100 percent.  The Fighting Illini seriously have a bigger and stronger front line than the Chicago freaking Bulls, and that is inexcuseable.  The FA market blows too.....I'd like to see us being in a guy like Nazr Mohammed since he can rebound (and we need that desperately) but otherwise, we are going to have to use trades and the draft to get help up front IMO.

 

This team won't do anything earth shattering until 2008 anyway. I look for them to shore up some in the off-season but not make their big moves until the next off-season. We do have a good core to work with though.

[maggsmaggs]

On the other hand, the SF market is looking good, but we already have Deng and Nocioni, so forget about any of these guys. 

 

Al Harrington, Atlanta

Peja Stojakovic, Sacramento (Player option)

Bonzi Wells, Sacramento

Matt Harpring, Utah

James Posey, Miami (Player option)

John Salmons, Philadelphia (Restricted)

Ruben Patterson, Portland (Player option)

Trevor Ariza, New York (Restricted)

Devean George, LA Lakers

Devin Brown, Utah (Team option)

Walter McCarty, LA Clippers

Laron Profit, LA Lakers

Tim Thomas, Chicago

Rasual Butler, New Orleans

Jiri Welsch, Milwaukee

Eric Williams, Toronto (Player option)

Justin Reed, Boston

Jumaine Jones, Charlotte

Lee Nailon, Philadelphia

Ronald Dupree, Minnesota

Maciej Lampe, New Orleans (Restricted)

George Lynch

Adrian Griffin, Dallas

Calbert Cheaney, Golden State

Matt Barnes, Philadelphia 76ers

Bryon Russell, Denver

Ndudi Ebi

Ryan Bowen, Houston (Player option)

Toni Kukoc, Milwaukee

Sean Banks, New Orleans

Qyntel Woods, New York

Terrence Morris, Orlando

Donta Smith, Atlanta (Team option)

Shavlik Randolph, Philadelphia

 

That Tim Thomas looks good.

[hammerhead johnson]

That Tim Thomas looks good.

 

The guy is an absolute phenom. Best high school player EVER!

[qwerty]

The guy is an absolute phenom.  Best high school player EVER!

 

[maggsmaggs]

The guy is an absolute phenom.  Best high school player EVER!

He was one of the best high school players ever.

[qwerty]

He was one of the best high school players ever.

 

Yes, him and 298429850925 other guys that put up the same numbers if not better. He may have been really talented but his numbers were not redirkulous enough to be considered one of t3h greatest ever. I have seen that said a few times before from others... but these people seem to think he will still have an impact in the nba... so what are you gonna do.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I am baffled as to how John Paxson can be in charge of putting together an NBA squad.  He's clearly a moron.

 

[hammerhead johnson]

 

If you can make a case for Paxson, feel free. I don't think that he has the brains to put together a contender, much less a team that can get out of the first round. Maybe I'm wrong.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

If you can make a case for Paxson, feel free.  I don't think that he has the brains to put together a contender, much less a team that can get out of the first round.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

He's made his mistakes, and is far from great, but I'm not ready to put him in the moron category myself. He hasn't even been at it for that long and is still in the process of cleaning up somebody else's mess, although a certain contract he just gave isn't looking so good so far...

 

He's done decent so far with the tools that he has. Yeah, he certainly can do better, but he didn't inherit much talent, and opportunities of getting a superstar talent are few and far in between.

 

I mean, how low would you rank him league-wise? Not yet in the moron category in my opinion.

[hammerhead johnson]

He's made his mistakes, and is far from great, but I'm not ready to put him in the moron category myself.  He hasn't even been at it for that long and is still in the process of cleaning up somebody else's mess, although a certain contract he just gave isn't looking so good so far...

 

He's done decent so far with the tools that he has.  Yeah, he certainly can do better, but he didn't inherit much talent, and opportunities of getting a superstar talent are few and far in between.

 

I mean, how low would you rank him league-wise?  Not yet in the moron category in my opinion.

 

The Ben Gordon pick pisses me off to no end. The fact that we can't put Chandler back at PF is the clincher for me. I'll give Paxson some credit for finding a few diamonds in the rough (Duhon, Nocioni) and drafting Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng, but otherwise, I'm not too happy with his overall plan of attack. I won't even elaborate on Trenton Hassell. I know that he's a brutal offensive player, but god damn do we need someone who can defend the perimiter. Wouldn't it be nice if we had someone who could hold Lebron James to 20 as opposed to 35? As it is now, that guy is gonna singlehandedly beat us 4 times this year. That's why I root for him to sprain his ankle, as controversial as that might seem.

 

It seems like our road to victory this year is via the 3 point shot. That might work in college, but not on the NBA level. Pax is making Skiles look really bad right now.

 

There are a lot of dumbass GMs in the NBA. I'm not saying Paxson is retarded like Isiah Thomas, but I'm pretty f***ing far from impressed right now.

[ZoomSlowik]

Paxon definitely botched the whole post-player scenario on this team. We needed to find at least a credible center at some point, and it seemed painfully obvious that Tyson wasn't the answer. The Gordon pick is also looking somewhat suspect. I'll admit I liked Gordon coming out of the draft, but thus far it looks like he can't do anything but score. I was really thinking/hoping that his ballhandling and passing would be better and that he could be a solid combo guard that could create for others, but that just hasn't happened.

 

I will say that I know it is difficult to find and acquire a decent center or even post player for that matter unless you get a good spot in the NBA draft. I have no problems with trading Eddy Curry, and in fact I think he got a decent package for him. I also like the signing of Duhon and picking Deng.

 

I'm not quite ready to put him anywhere near the Isaiah Thomas category, although the center position and Gordon look poorly conceived. The two obvious holes that need to be filled are a legit center and a big, defensive oriented 2 guard.

 

Somehow nabbing LaMarcus Aldridge would be huge. I'd even be willing to try to trade some players and picks to get him, because that guy looks like an absolute stud. He's probably better suited to play PF, but you can probably get by with him and Chandler up front because both are extremely atheltic, and hopefully both will weigh at least 245 by next year (Aldridge is listed at 6'10". 240). Unfortunately he's probably the only guy that can immediately contribute at C in the NBA, with the only other highly rated potential centers in most top 25's are Tiago Splitter, Paul Davis, C.J. Giles, and Josh Boone who all are much less sure things than Aldridge. I'm not really sure what other options he has for getting a legit big man. That is a much bigger priority than getting a legit 2 guard, unfortunately it is also a lot harder to fill. We may just have to hope the draft works out for us in the next few years or that we get a fortunate signing in future FA classes.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

The Ben Gordon pick pisses me off to no end.  The fact that we can't put Chandler back at PF is the clincher for me. 

 

Regardless of your hard-on for tyson, any sane person who pays attention to basketball knows that the moves done by the previous GM were infinitely worse than that...I put the Brand trade at the top of my list...If you think the Gordon pick pisses you off, I like that trade even less...Watching Brand, Artest, Brad Miller, Donyell and others become so great on other teams pisses of even more than that draft pick ever will...Hell, at least Gordon was serviceable in his role last year, helped the team make the playoffs, and did it well enough to win an award.

 

And as far as tyson at PF, I hope you mean 2nd-string right now...

[heirdog]

Could it be that Ben is not being utilized properly? I mean the guy is very talented and everyone has thought so for a long time (All American, NCAA Champion, 3rd pick, Sixth Man) and now all of a sudden, he sucks. The guy single handedly won us many games last year...games we had no business winning. I think that far outweighs games that he may have lost for us...not sure if there were that many because as soon as he messed up slightly, Skiles would pull him. I think Skiles is the problem with Ben Gordon. He doesn't give him the freedom. Iverson gets steals with his quickness and other than that, he is just strictly an offensive player. Ben should be used similarly. The guy is like Iverson with less slashing and a better shot. Quit spotting him up and running him off screens like he is Reggie Miller, put the ball in his hands and let him create.

 

I agree though we need some bigs to get some pressure off our only legitimate scorer (Deng and Hinrich are close but not quite elite in this regard)...Gordon. Curry, while the stats were weak for a big man, commanded a double team that would open up the perimeter. Now the only people opponents leave open are duhon and nocioni and they are thriving but Deng and Gordon get constant attention. Draft Aldrige or Andrea Bagnani with the first of the two picks and get another big if possible with the other. I don't want any part of Morrison...a classic college over-achiever. In the current NBA, you have to be all of that and have some athleticism (see Kirk Hinrich) as smarts and old-school fundamentals will only get you so far unless you are 7 feet (see Tim Duncan...but he has some athleticism too).

 

Gordon is not the savior but he is a legitimate scorer that is clutch...not very easy to find in the NBA. But I hate the way Skiles handles him so I hope Ben is traded if the Bulls intend on misusing him because I would love to see him achieve his full potential.

[hammerhead johnson]

Regardless of your hard-on for tyson, any sane person who pays attention to basketball knows that the moves done by the previous GM were infinitely worse than that...I put the Brand trade at the top of my list...If you think the Gordon pick pisses you off, I like that trade even less...Watching Brand, Artest, Brad Miller, Donyell and others become so great on other teams pisses of even more than that draft pick ever will...Hell, at least Gordon was serviceable in his role last year, helped the team make the playoffs, and did it well enough to win an award.

 

And as far as tyson at PF, I hope you mean 2nd-string right now...

 

Fine, but we win zero championships without Jerry Krause in the picture. I'll concede that he went senile in the end, but he's still a legendary GM.

 

Put Chandler back at PF, and he won't be in foul trouble anywhere near as often. I can't defend him on the breathing issues or the lack of conditioning this past summer, but the tools are there. Maybe people don't want to hear about it anymore, but I'll back him to the death. The combination of height/wingspan/quckness/agility/work ethic/intensity/mean streak combined with his mental progression should make for some terrific, 1st team caliber defense in the very near future. He can't bang with these 265 pound centers, that is for damn sure. He's a PF through and through.

[ZoomSlowik]

Could it be that Ben is not being utilized properly?  I mean the guy is very talented and everyone has thought so for a long time (All American, NCAA Champion, 3rd pick, Sixth Man) and now all of a sudden, he sucks.  The guy single handedly won us many games last year...games we had no business winning.  I think that far outweighs games that he may have lost for us...not sure if there were that many because as soon as he messed up slightly, Skiles would pull him.  I think Skiles is the problem with Ben Gordon.  He doesn't give him the freedom.  Iverson gets steals with his quickness and other than that, he is just strictly an offensive player.  Ben should be used similarly.  The guy is like Iverson with less slashing and a better shot.  Quit spotting him up and running him off screens like he is Reggie Miller, put the ball in his hands and let him create. 

 

I agree though we need some bigs to get some pressure off our only legitimate scorer (Deng and Hinrich are close but not quite elite in this regard)...Gordon.  Curry, while the stats were weak for a big man, commanded a double team that would open up the perimeter.  Now the only people opponents leave open are duhon and nocioni and they are thriving but Deng and Gordon get constant attention.  Draft Aldrige or Andrea Bagnani with the first of the two picks and get another big if possible with the other.  I don't want any part of Morrison...a classic college over-achiever.  In the current NBA, you have to be all of that and have some athleticism (see Kirk Hinrich) as smarts and old-school fundamentals will only get you so far unless you are 7 feet (see Tim Duncan...but he has some athleticism too).

 

Gordon is not the savior but he is a legitimate scorer that is clutch...not very easy to find in the NBA.  But I hate the way Skiles handles him so I hope Ben is traded if the Bulls intend on misusing him because I would love to see him achieve his full potential.

 

I don't think we can give Ben the kind of freedom that Iverson has, that would probably end poorly. He'd probably end up with a stat line of something like 18 points, 3 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 4.5 turnovers (maybe more, he averages over 2 in his limited time), and a 40 FG% if not lower. Iverson is considerably quicker, can more consistently create a good shot for himself, and is a better passer. Ben might be a better shooter, but he can't create offense anywhere near as efficiently as AI. Plus, I'm sure Hammer will say this, but Iverson is not exactly the type of player we need on the Bulls, and Iverson's team has not been overly successful in his career. If Ben were to become an Allen Iverson type player, Hinrich and Deng would probably lose any effectiveness that they have, and any chance of smoothly integrating a post player would be diminished. About the only type of players that have had success with Iverson were either role players or spot up shooters. We've probably got a lot of the former, but we don't have any elite outside shooters other than Gordon, and it's a mute point since Gordon probably can't score 30 a night like Iverson anyways. He doesn't draw enough fouls to consistently go to the free throw line, and he has entirely too many 4-14 type nights.

 

Bagnani is not going to solve our problem. He may be a 7-footer, but he weighs only 225 and is probably a bit of a tweener. He's more perimeter oriented, but he might be too slow to play SF, and he'd need to add some beef and improve his post moves before being able to contribute at PF. He is not going to be an NBA center, that is almost a certainty.

[hammerhead johnson]

The guy single handedly won us many games last year...games we had no business winning.

 

In Rosenbaum's defensive ratings system, Gordon was the second best defensive SG in the NBA last year. In reality, he is like the second worst defensive SG in the NBA. His rating is based on the fact that he was out there in the 4th quarter with the "closing squad", if you will. We won 47 games last year by holding teams to the worst overall shooting percentage in the NBA, even better than the Spurs. The 4th quarter defense was insane. That's how we won games. Gordon just kind of went along for the ride. Now, our entire game plan is all f***ed up. Chandler is playing out of position, we have not one legitimate center on the roster, etc. Time to send Paxson some hate mail.

Edited December 27, 2005 by hammerhead johnson

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Fine, but we win zero championships without Jerry Krause in the picture.  I'll concede that he went senile in the end, but he's still a legendary GM.

 

Put Chandler back at PF, and he won't be in foul trouble anywhere near as often.  I can't defend him on the breathing issues or the lack of conditioning this past summer, but the tools are there.  Maybe people don't want to hear about it anymore, but I'll back him to the death.  The combination of height/wingspan/quckness/agility/work ethic/intensity/mean streak combined with his mental progression should make for some terrific, 1st team caliber defense in the very near future.  He can't bang with these 265 pound centers, that is for damn sure.  He's a PF through and through.

 

Oh, I'm eternally grateful for those Jordan teams. Always will be. Greatest of all time, in my opinion. I was talking about post-Jordan Krause.

 

And yeah, the health issues worry me. I wanna know how severe and lasting they are. I want tyson healthy. So do you want him back starting or do you like the reserve role? He looks better off the bench recently...Well, actually last year too...And he gets booed less by the home crowd.

[hammerhead johnson]

Oh, I'm eternally grateful for those Jordan teams.  Always will be.  Greatest of all time, in my opinion.  I was talking about post-Jordan Krause.

 

And yeah, the health issues worry me.  I wanna know how severe and lasting they are.  I want tyson healthy.  So do you want him back starting or do you like the reserve role?  He looks better off the bench recently...Well, actually last year too...And he gets booed less by the home crowd.   

 

As long as Tyson gets 30 to 35 minutes per game, I'll be happy. None of this 15 to 20 minute crap out of the C slot. I thought that it was beyond amusing to have a 235 pound dude covering the 340 pound Shaq. What good can come from that matchup? Foul trouble, an injury, etc.