Re-sign Contreras, trade Vazquez mid-season

[longshot7]

My gut says Jerry Owens will beat Brian Anderson out for CF, and then proceed to win ROTY.

[Gene Honda Civic]

My gut says Jerry Owens will beat Brian Anderson out for CF, and then proceed to win ROTY.

He'll never play CF for the Sox. Book it.

[Kyyle23]

My gut says Jerry Owens will beat Brian Anderson out for CF, and then proceed to win ROTY.

 

yep. We got that the first time. I put it on my sig. Now we know.

[AirScott]

My gut says Jerry Owens will beat Brian Anderson out for CF, and then proceed to win ROTY.

that doesn't seem likely. why are so many people anti-Anderson? they either want a trade for another CF, or think Owens gets the job.

[chitownsportsfan]

When comparing Anderson's and Borchard's lines please consider that Borchard plays a passable corner outfield while Anderson plays a very good CF. I mean, CF is probably the 3rd hardest position and LF and RF are two of the easiest along with 1B

[longshot7]

yep.  We got that the first time.  I put it on my sig.  Now we know.

 

Uh oh, now I've done it. Put up or shut up time. Go Jerry! Please show I'm not a complete boob.

 

btw, I'm not anti-Anderson. I like him a lot. I just like Owens' numbers more, so I'm going out on a limb, pimping him.

 

The last guy I felt real good about was Iguchi. And before that, Carlos Lee. Of course, I thought Carlos should play 3B, so what do I know?

[witesoxfan]

Uh oh, now I've done it.  Put up or shut up time.  Go Jerry!  Please show I'm not a complete boob.

 

btw, I'm not anti-Anderson.  I like him a lot.  I just like Owens' numbers more, so I'm going out on a limb, pimping him. 

 

The last guy I felt real good about was Iguchi.  And before that, Carlos Lee.  Of course, I thought Carlos should play 3B, so what do I know?

 

Anderson has more baseball experience, is better defensively, and put up his .295 18 .829 whatever splits at AAA last yeear, while Owens hit .330 at AA in a huge park, and he was something like 38 of 58 in SBs.

 

I consider myself an Owens supporter on this, considering his lack of baseball experience, but he's probably not starting material.

[Kyyle23]

Anderson has more baseball experience, is better defensively, and put up his .295 18 .829 whatever splits at AAA last yeear, while Owens hit .330 at AA in a huge park, and he was something like 38 of 58 in SBs.

 

I consider myself an Owens supporter on this, considering his lack of baseball experience, but he's probably not starting material.

 

Not to mention that Owens is a Left Fielder, right? So winning the Center Fielder Job seems kind of unlikely.....

[RockRaines]

Uh oh, now I've done it.  Put up or shut up time.  Go Jerry!  Please show I'm not a complete boob.

 

btw, I'm not anti-Anderson.  I like him a lot.  I just like Owens' numbers more, so I'm going out on a limb, pimping him. 

 

The last guy I felt real good about was Iguchi.  And before that, Carlos Lee.  Of course, I thought Carlos should play 3B, so what do I know?

How can you like Owens numbers more?? How many seasons have you actually seen Ownens' numbers? 1? Because ANderson has been doing it since he was drafted in our system, not to mention shown improvement and ability to adapt at every level he was placed. Not to mention that Owens is probably a corner OF'er eventually, and ANderson plays a better CF.

[witesoxfan]

Not to mention that Owens is a Left Fielder, right?  So winning the Center Fielder Job seems kind of unlikely.....

 

I think...not positive of course...that he played CF for the Barons this year. However, he is not a projected CF...projected more as a LFer or 4th OFer.

 

If I'm wrong and he did play LF this year, someone obviously correct me.

[GoodAsGould]

I think...not positive of course...that he played CF for the Barons this year.  However, he is not a projected CF...projected more as a LFer or 4th OFer. 

 

If I'm wrong and he did play LF this year, someone obviously correct me.

 

You forget about Chris Young already? And he plays a horrid CF from all accounts btw and yes most scouts project him to be a 4th OF.

[witesoxfan]

You forget about Chris Young already?  And he plays a horrid CF from all accounts btw and yes most scouts project him to be a 4th OF.

 

wite = pwn3d

[longshot7]

How can you like Owens numbers more?? How many seasons have you actually seen Ownens' numbers?  1?  Because ANderson has been doing it since he was drafted in our system, not to mention shown improvement and ability to adapt at every level he was placed.  Not to mention that Owens is probably a corner OF'er eventually, and ANderson plays a better CF.

 

Owens led the Southern League with a .331 average with a .393 OBP, which was higher than Anderson's numbers last year. Yes, it's a small one-year sample, but Anderson didn't have a spectacular 2004 either. Personally, I think adding Owens in the 2-hole will allow us to move Iguchi down in the order without a hude drop-off. I'm not sure Anderson is a #2 hitter.

 

Now, our offense is stacked, and while praising Owens in December (Ozzie said he would let Jerry and Brian compete for the CF job in ST) - Ozzie also said that defense would be every bit as important as offense. So who knows?

[RockRaines]

Owens led the Southern League with a .331 average with a .393 OBP, which was higher than Anderson's numbers last year.  Yes, it's a small one-year sample, but Anderson didn't have a spectacular 2004 either.  Personally, I think adding Owens in the 2-hole will allow us to move Iguchi down in the order without a hude drop-off.  I'm not sure Anderson is a #2 hitter.

 

Now, our offense is stacked, and while praising Owens in December (Ozzie said he would let Jerry and Brian compete for the CF job in ST) - Ozzie also said that defense would be every bit as important as offense.  So who knows?

First of all, Uribe is going to be the #2 hitter. His numbers in the 2 hole were comparable if not better than Iguchis were this year, nobody ever mentioned Anderson hitting #2, read up on your team.

Second, Owens is not a CF'er, he is a LF'er and placing him in center makes the defense worse.

Third: One year sample. Exactly. Anderson has proven it at EVERY level, Jerry has not.

Keep predicting Owens as this stud CF'er and you will be flamed every time its proven otherwise.

Edited January 20, 2006 by RockRaines

[witesoxfan]

[GreenSox]

Anderson will get the job this year. But Pods and Dye will be out of here in a couple of years, so there will be plenty of room for young outfielders, if Owens can make the grade.

[RockRaines]

Anderson will get the job this year.  But Pods and Dye will be out of here in a couple of years, so there will be plenty of room for young outfielders, if Owens can make the grade.

When Pods leaves, Owens will take his place. Thats the plan. They are the same player. With that said, I believe they are hoping when Dye's contract is up that Sweeney will be able to step in and take the position, giving them Owens, Anderson, Sweeny for several years.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I'll make this real simple for you.

 

Kenny has been hot after Vazquez since he became GM of the White Sox. He pursued him when in was at MTL, then when he became a NYY & finally as an AZD. Kenny's love for Vazquez has never waivered.

 

Kenny got Contreras not because he felt that he would capable of carrying the team in the 2nd half of 2005 but because he felt he would produce more than Loaiza at the time. When they NYY's threw in the dough the trade was a no-brainer. E-LO had lost his cutter that year.

 

Now Contreras & his agent are asking for 36/3. Why would Kenny give up his love for Vazquez to pay a much higher price for Contreras? That makes no sense. Especially when they gained an arbitration yr on Vazquez with his trade demand. They don't have to think about re-signing Vazquez for at least 2 yrs.

 

Contreras prior to the 2nd half of 2005 has not been known for throwing strikes in the ML's. Vazquez is & Vazquez is the much younger arm.

 

What shocks me about your suggestion is you're not even factoring the impact Cooper is going to have on Vazquez. Just look at what he did for Garland Contra. There's no reason to believe he can't make Vazquez a MUCH better pitcher as well.

Edited February 2, 2006 by JUGGERNAUT

[Dick Allen]

I'll make this real simple for you. 

 

Kenny has been hot after Vazquez since he became GM of the White Sox.  He pursued him when in was at MTL, then when he became a NYY & finally as an AZD.  Kenny's love for Vazquez has never waivered.  

 

Kenny got Contreras not because he felt that he would capable of carrying the team in the 2nd half of 2005 but because he felt he would produce more than Loaiza at the time.  When they NYY's threw in the dough the trade was a no-brainer.  E-LO had lost his cutter that year.

 

Now Contreras & his agent are asking for 36/3.   Why would Kenny give up his love for Vazquez to pay a much higher price for Contreras?  That makes no sense.  Especially when they gained an arbitration yr on Vazquez with his trade demand.  They don't have to think about re-signing Vazquez for at least 2 yrs.

 

Contreras prior to the 2nd half of 2005 has not been known for throwing strikes in the ML's.  Vazquez is & Vazquez is the much younger arm.

 

What shocks me about your suggestion is you're not even factoring the impact Cooper is going to have on Vazquez.  Just look at what he did for Garland Contra.  There's no reason to believe he can't make Vazquez a MUCH better pitcher as well.

To say Kenny got Contreras not because he thought he could be dominant, but because he would produce more than Loaiza is just plain wrong. The Yankees are throwing in about $3 or 4 million total for Contreras for the 2 1/2 years that were left on his contract. If you have ever heard KW talk about Contreras he mentions the amounts of times he had asked the Yankees about him. Kenny obviously saw the talent Contreras had, and thought correctly that the White Sox could harness this talent. It took time, but it did occur. Hopefully Vazquez can become dominant as well. He has been woefully inconsitent the last season and a half.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Dick Allen

[JUGGERNAUT]

To say Kenny got Contreras not because he thought he could be dominant, but because he would produce more than Loaiza is just plain wrong. The Yankees are throwing in about $3 or 4 million total for Contreras for the 2 1/2 years that were left on his contract. If you have ever heard KW talk about Contreras he mentions the amounts of times he had asked the Yankees about him.  Kenny obviously saw the talent Contreras had, and thought correctly that the White Sox could harness this talent. It took time, but it did occur. Hopefully Vazquez can become dominant as well. He has been woefully inconsitent the last season and a half.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't recall KW mentioning those sentiments about Contra at the time of the trade. He did talk him up of course but I don't recall him referring to him as a dominant pitcher.

 

As for Vazquez you have to look past the season avg numbers. The guy threw 23 games where he pitched 6+ in & gave up 3 runs or less. Those are considered quality starts & would have amounted to many more wins playing for the White Sox.

 

His NYY numbers were good enough for all-star consideration in the 1st half of that year but fell apart the 2nd half of the year. Such a dramatic change nearly always indicates an injury of some kind.

 

His 2005 AZD numbers showed a major improvement over those 2nd half NYY numbers.

 

To sum up his career:

One of the most dominant K-out arms in the NL during his days with the Expos.

1/2 a year of being dominant with the NYY's & 1/2 a year of being a bust.

A much improved year for a team that struggled mightily for offense in AZ.

[Dick Allen]

I don't recall KW mentioning those sentiments about Contra at the time of the trade.  He did talk him up of course but I don't recall him referring to him as a dominant pitcher.

 

As for Vazquez you have to look past the season avg numbers.  The guy threw 23 games where he pitched 6+ in & gave up 3 runs or less.  Those are considered quality starts & would have amounted to many more wins playing for the White Sox.

 

His NYY numbers were good enough for all-star consideration in the 1st half of that year but fell apart the 2nd half of the year.  Such a dramatic change nearly always indicates an injury of some kind. 

 

His 2005 AZD numbers showed a major improvement over those 2nd half NYY numbers. 

 

To sum up his career:

One of the most dominant K-out arms in the NL during his days with the Expos.

1/2 a year of being dominant with the NYY's & 1/2 a year of being a bust.

A much improved year for a team that struggled mightily for offense in AZ.

I don't know if last year was much improved for Vazquez, although he did have some dominant games. His ERA, record, and innings pitched were very similar to a very over the hill Greg Maddux. He needs to be more consistent, hopefully Cooper can make that happen, although I think people are putting too much stock into what even the best pitching coach can do for a pitcher.

[witesoxfan]

I don't know if last year was much improved for Vazquez, although he did have some dominant games. His ERA, record, and innings pitched were very similar to a very over the hill Greg Maddux. He needs to be more consistent, hopefully Cooper can make that happen, although I think people are putting too much stock into what even the best pitching coach can do for a pitcher.

 

So how much will a top 2 defense in the majors help him?

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't know if last year was much improved for Vazquez, although he did have some dominant games. His ERA, record, and innings pitched were very similar to a very over the hill Greg Maddux. He needs to be more consistent, hopefully Cooper can make that happen, although I think people are putting too much stock into what even the best pitching coach can do for a pitcher.

 

I don't think it's any coincidence that so many of our pitchers had career years last year. Coop deserves his due. And it's not like we're talking about a guy that's had little to no success. Don't be surprised if Javier is our best pitcher in 06. I know that's a pretty bold statement. But I think he can be that good.

[Jordan4life_2007]

As does AJ..................

 

Agreed. I also think another key is that Javier is not being asked to come in and lead the rotation or be a savior ala NY or Arizona. He's basically our 5th starter. He's gonna be matched up with a lot of other 5th starters. And I can't think of too many 5th or even 4th starters anywhere near as good as Vazquez. If he can keep his hr's down, he'll be fine.

[Dick Allen]

So how much will a top 2 defense in the majors help him?

Unless he decreases the long balls he gives up, not much.