Can Tejada be a reality?

[Kyyle23]

I guess innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to certain people.

 

Depends. Balco tipped the scales and made it impossible for us, as the regular person, to decipher who was or was not juicing, and the players union did their best to cover up any and all wrongdoing until Congress stepped in. So we were left with bits and pieces of grand jury testimony, Jose Cansecos book(which was WIDELY ridiculed and questioned, but actually turned out to hold weight) and players pointing fingers. Sure, noone ever saw Barry Bonds take steroids(or hasnt admitted it yet), but Gary Sheffield had no problem telling everyone that Barry gave him the cream. Does that make Bonds guilty? Not to some, but it sure makes me think that he is(well, that and the pictures throughout his career that playout like Bruce Banner morphing into the Incredible Hulk). For most of his career Miguel Tejada was in BALCO central, its not out of the realm of possibility that he saw Giambi get paid and decided he wanted to jack his numbers up to the next level with Victor Conte's lab.

 

And for KW, he needs to have no doubt in his mind. If he thinks that Tejada could possibly be involved, he needs to stay the f*** away, proof or no proof. It just isnt as easy as saying "Innocent until proven guilty"

[whitesoxfan101]

I still don't get how the Cubs are a contender to get Tejada.....he said he wants to go to a team that can win.

[GoodAsGould]

For most of his career Miguel Tejada was in BALCO central, its not out of the realm of possibility that he saw Giambi get paid and decided he wanted to jack his numbers up to the next level with Victor Conte's lab. 

 

And for KW, he needs to have no doubt in his mind.  If he thinks that Tejada could possibly be involved, he needs to stay the f*** away, proof or no proof.  It just isnt as easy as saying "Innocent until proven guilty"

 

So because Tejada played where the Balco company was located there is a chance he might of used steroids? Im sorry but that is just dumb until you get any proof at all other than he played in Oakland and Palmiero tried to blame him...

[Dick Allen]

So because Tejada played where the Balco company was located there is a chance he might of used steroids?  Im sorry but that is just dumb until you get any proof at all other than he played in Oakland and Palmiero tried to blame him...

Canseco thought he used them, and he's been pretty accurate.

[GoodAsGould]

Canseco thought he used them, and he's been pretty accurate.

 

Keyword there being thought.... the only players that mean anything in his book are the ones he knew for sure. He also thought Clemens was a roider too and Im guessing he thinks other players could be roiders too. Either you know or you dont know and Canseco doesnt know when it involves Tejada.

[Dick Allen]

Keyword there being thought.... the only players that mean anything in his book are the ones he knew for sure.  He also thought Clemens was a roider too and Im guessing he thinks other players could be roiders too.  Either you know or you dont know and Canseco doesnt know when it involves Tejada.

It wouldn't surprise me if Clemens juiced. As big of an idiot as Canseco is, if he thinks you have, IMO, you probably have. Either way, Tejada's never tested positive, so he is innocent.

[SSH2005]

Phil Rogers thinks that Tejada will be traded soon. Here's the part of his article which relates to the Sox...

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...ack=1&cset=true

The White Sox don't need Tejada, but the way they are operating, you would be crazy to rule them out. They could build a package around one of their veteran starters—Jose Contreras, Freddy Garcia or Javier Vazquez—and shortstop Juan Uribe.

 

Or the Orioles still might try to temper Tejada's displeasure by trading parts of their future for veteran pitchers.

 

There are only two teams with surpluses—Oakland and the White Sox.

 

Jon Garland's signing makes it appear October ace Contreras could be the odd man out on the South Side, but the Orioles would pay heavily for him or Oakland's Barry Zito (both are eligible for free agency after 2006) only if they signed them to multiyear extensions. Even then, Contreras' age (listed as 34) could be an issue. But nothing says the Sox wouldn't trade Garcia or Vazquez, who are signed through 2007.

 

If the Orioles wanted to approach their problem this way, the White Sox would be positioned to get a nice return.

 

In addition to the possibly untouchable Erik Bedard, the Orioles have power right-hander Daniel Cabrera, young reliever Chris Ray and several good pitching prospects, most notably right-handers John Maine and Hayden Penn.

[Flash Tizzle]

For a team desperately searching for pitching help, I don't forsee Baltimore trading any. Perhaps a few pitching prospects; but Ray and Cabrera definitely won't be moved.

 

What I'm interested in is what the hell the Dodgers are doing. They seemingly feel off the map after signing Tomko. Their rotation can't possibly be set as it currently stands. You'd think with the surplus of pitching prospects they could afford to package a few and receive Contreras, Garcia, or Vazquez. Maybe what my cousin from LA told me is true--ever since Pedro Martinez, they treat ever pitching prospect within their organization like a future hall-of-famer. Afraid the next trade may one they'll never live down. Poor philosophy, and their recent records reflect it; if true.

Edited January 1, 2006 by Flash Tizzle

[SSH2005]

For a team desperately searching for pitching help, I don't forsee Baltimore trading any. Perhaps a few pitching prospects; but Ray and Cabrera definitely won't be moved.

 

What I'm interested in is what the hell the Dodgers are doing. They seemingly feel off the map after signing Tomko. Their rotation can't possibly be set as it currently stands. You'd think with the surplus of pitching prospects they could afford to package a few and receive Contreras, Garcia, or Vazquez. Maybe what my cousin from LA told me is true--ever since Pedro Martinez, they treat ever pitching prospect within their organization like a future hall-of-famer. Afraid the next trade may one they'll never live down. Poor philosophy, and their recent records reflect it; if true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possibly.

 

Delino DeShields.

[VAfan]

It is worth checking out Tejada's postseason stats. He's been on a precipitous decline in production since his first postseason appearance in 2000.

 

2000 ALDS OAK NYY L 5 20 5 7 2 0 0 1 2 2 .350 .409 .450 1 0 0 0 0

2001 ALDS OAK NYY L 5 21 1 6 3 0 0 1 0 3 .286 .304 .429 0 0 0 1 1

2002 ALDS OAK MIN L 5 21 3 3 1 0 1 4 1 7 .143 .174 .333 0 0 0 1 0

2003 ALDS OAK BOS L 5 23 0 2 1 0 0 2 0 4 .087 .087 .130 0 0 0 0 0

 

Here are the cumulative totals.

 

4 Lg Div Series 0-4 20 85 9 18 7 0 1 8 3 16 .212 .242 .329 1 0 0 2 1

 

 

Meanwhile, Juan Uribe did very well in his one postseason.

 

2005 ALDS CHW BOS W 3 10 4 4 1 0 1 4 0 2 .400 .400 .800 0 0

ALCS CHW LAA W 5 16 1 4 1 0 0 0 2 3 .250 .333 .312 0 0

WS CHW HOU W 4 16 2 4 3 0 0 2 3 3 .250 .368 .438 1 0

 

And we all know how well Jose Contreras pitched for us.

 

2005 ALDS CHW BOS W 1 1 2.35 1-0 0 0 7.7 8 2 0 6

ALCS CHW LAA W 2 2 3.12 1-1 0 1 17.3 12 6 2 6

WS CHW HOU W 1 1 3.86 1-0 0 0 0 7.0 6 3 0 2

 

 

So here is how I feel about all the Tejada trade talk. I would agree that Tejada is a much better overall shortstop than Juan Uribe. Historically, his offense has been worth about 40 more runs a season than Uribe's.

 

But if Baltimore were demanding Contreras, would this really be a good deal for the Sox? Perhaps, but ONLY if Contreras refused to re-sign with us, which I don't think he will do (he LOVES it here).

 

In the postseason, there's no doubt in my mind that having Contreras and Uribe is much more valuable than having Tejada. After all, Uribe hit better in the 2005 postseason than Tejada has in 3 of his 4 postseason appearances. And there are a lot of other good hitters that have gone south in October. Compared to pitchers, they are not a reliable commodity in the postseason.

 

That being said, I doubt the Orioles would really want Jose Contreras at his age, even if he were signed to an extension. They are more likely to want a young pitcher like McCarthy, plus Uribe, plus prospects. The problem with that deal as many have pointed out is that it saps the Sox of our pitching depth, which is very risky. And it adds significantly to the Sox' payroll.

 

We don't really need Tejada's additional offense to recapture the AL Central. And he's not a proven postseason commodity, unlike any starter (except Vazquez) that we currently have. So my opinion is that this is a trade, like those discussed for AJ Burnett and Ken Griffey last year, that will be better for the Sox if it doesn't happen.

[Guest JimH]

      But if Baltimore were demanding Contreras, would this really be a good deal for the Sox?  Perhaps, but ONLY if Contreras refused to re-sign with us, which I don't think he will do (he LOVES it here). 

 

In the postseason, there's no doubt in my mind that having Contreras and Uribe is much more valuable than having Tejada.  After all, Uribe hit better in the 2005 postseason than Tejada has in 3 of his 4 postseason appearances.  And there are a lot of other good hitters that have gone south in October.  Compared to pitchers, they are not a reliable commodity in the postseason. 

 

That being said, I doubt the Orioles would really want Jose Contreras at his age, even if he were signed to an extension.  They are more likely to want a young pitcher like McCarthy, plus Uribe, plus prospects.  The problem with that deal as many have pointed out is that it saps the Sox of our pitching depth, which is very risky.  And it adds significantly to the Sox' payroll. 

 

We don't really need Tejada's additional offense to recapture the AL Central.  And he's not a proven postseason commodity, unlike any starter (except Vazquez) that we currently have.  So my opinion is that this is a trade, like those discussed for AJ Burnett and Ken Griffey last year, that will be better for the Sox if it doesn't happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow, talk about a bunch of assumptions.

 

Why is it you believe Contreras loves it here, when it fits your viewpoint, but you didn't believe Garland preferred to play out west when it didn't fit your viewpoint?

 

You doubt the Orioles would want Contreras at his age, even if he signed an extension? And you use that rationale to state the Sox don't need Tejada's offense to get back to the playoffs?

 

Any more quantum leap assumptions you want to make?

 

The bottom line is this, in case you haven't cracked the code yet:

 

Williams wants cost certainty. If he can't get it, he will take players to market. Right now, that's Contreras, just like it was with Garland until he re-signed.

 

These players are interested in what's best for them, God bless Garland for "presumably" taking less to stay in Chicago, hopefully that same scenario will work with Contreras.

 

To say Tejada is not a proven postseason commodity is about as shorthsighted of an argument I've ever heard. Will you please throw out your complete bias on small sample stats? Stats can be manipultated any way you want, you are great at manipulating them to fit your opinion.

[SSH2005]

This "proven postseason commodity" stuff is pure crap. Podsednik never played in the postseason either and did very well. If you would honestly rather have Uribe over Tejada because Uribe put up good numbers in the postseason and is therefore a "proven postseason commodity," you're nuts.

[Guest JimH]

This "proven postseason commodity" stuff is pure crap.  Podsednik never played in the postseason either and did very well.  If you would honestly rather have Uribe over Tejada because Uribe put up good numbers in the postseason and is therefore a "proven postseason commodity," you're nuts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you, may I please request this be forwarded to VAFan via private message, in capital letters, bolded, and underlined.

 

Just kidding folks.

[VAfan]

Wow, talk about a bunch of assumptions.

 

Why is it you believe Contreras loves it here, when it fits your viewpoint, but you didn't believe Garland preferred to play out west when it didn't fit your viewpoint?

 

You doubt the Orioles would want Contreras at his age, even if he signed an extension?  And you use that rationale to state the Sox don't need Tejada's offense to get back to the playoffs?

 

Any more quantum leap assumptions you want to make?

 

The bottom line is this, in case you haven't cracked the code yet:

 

Williams wants cost certainty.  If he can't get it, he will take players to market.  Right now, that's Contreras, just like it was with Garland until he re-signed.

 

These players are interested in what's best for them, God bless Garland for "presumably" taking less to stay in Chicago, hopefully that same scenario will work with Contreras.

 

To say Tejada is not a proven postseason commodity is about as shorthsighted of an argument I've ever heard.  Will you please throw out your complete bias on small sample stats?  Stats can be manipultated any way you want, you are great at manipulating them to fit your opinion.

 

 

We'll see whether Contreras signs an extension with the Sox. I believe he will. If you don't think he LOVES it here, then you didn't watch the postseason I watched. Do you want me to find the articles about how he finally felt comfortable with a manager who speaks his language, how he was reunited with his family while in Chicago, etc? I know baseball is a business, but I'd be shocked if Jose left of his own free will.

 

My second point - that great pitchers are much more reliable in the postseason than great hitters - I think is borne out again and again. Contreras was a horse for us in the postseason - never giving up more than 3 runs in 4 starts, and taking us deep into all 4 of his games. Tejada, A-Rod, Barry Bonds earlier in his career, Frank and Maggs in 2000 - I'm sure I could find a lot of great hitters who went ice cold in October. So a trade of Contreras for Tejada, even straight up, would weaken us in October in my opinion. Pitching wins championships. Look how the Yankees have struggled since their pitching went south.

 

As for stats - what part of Tejada's postseason line do you like? The guy never draws a walk. Juan drew 5 walks in the ALCS and WS, even though we all know that Juan is a free swinger.

 

I'm not suggesting Juan is a better hitter than Tejada - if you read my post I said the opposite. I'm suggesting that it is probably not a good trade for the Sox to surrender one of their ace starters and Juan Uribe for Miguel Tejada if you are trying to build a team to win the World Series again. Over the course of a regular season, Tejada's runs created value would make the trade fair. But in the postseason, give me the great starter and the clutch-hitting great defensive shortstop.

[SSH2005]

If KW does end up deciding to trade Contreras but Baltimore won't take him in a package for Tejada, I think KW will wait until Jeff Weaver signs to deal Contreras. Weaver is the last decent starting pitcher left on the free agent market and Contreras' value would be at it's peak if there was no good free agent option left.

[GoodAsGould]

We'll see whether Contreras signs an extension with the Sox.  I believe he will.  If you don't think he LOVES it here, then you didn't watch the postseason I watched.  Do you want me to find the articles about how he finally felt comfortable with a manager who speaks his language, how he was reunited with his family while in Chicago, etc?  I know baseball is a business, but I'd be shocked if Jose left of his own free will. 

 

As for stats - what part of Tejada's postseason line do you like?  The guy never draws a walk.  Juan drew 5 walks in the ALCS and WS, even though we all know that Juan is a free swinger. 

 

But in the postseason, give me the great starter and the clutch-hitting great defensive shortstop.

 

Well a course to the media your always going to say the right thing the majority of the time and say Chicago is a great city blah blah blah... those articles really dont mean much. And while their arent too many head managers that speak spanish their is nowadays at least a couple players on the teams and id say at least 1 coach majority of the time. And Contreras was reunited with his family in NY when they played the Mets I think.

 

And whats in the past is in the past... Tejada is a much greater hitter than Uribe will ever be they arent even close. And the fact you said clutch hitting SS for Uribe's case is laughable.

[sayitaintso]

Well a course to the media your always going to say the right thing the majority of the time and say Chicago is a great city blah blah blah... those articles really dont mean much.  And while their arent too many head managers that speak spanish their is nowadays at least a couple players on the teams and id say at least 1 coach majority of the time.  And Contreras was reunited with his family in NY when they played the Mets I think.

 

And whats in the past is in the past... Tejada is a much greater hitter than Uribe will ever be they arent even close.  And the fact you said clutch hitting SS for Uribe's case is laughable.

Since it is now officaly the start of this week, i guess we will find out if Phil Rogers was right about his prediction.

[SSH2005]

http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition...ny-sports-print

For today, though, Duquette's Orioles are busy fielding offers for Miguel Tejada, who's already set the winter record changing his mind about whether he wants out (the current stance is yes). One Orioles insider called the chances of a Tejada trade "50-50."

 

Just in case, the O's are investigating contingency plans and could sign defensive whiz Alex Gonzalez (the ex-Marlin) to a two-year, $10-million deal if Tejada is traded.

 

The Orioles' goal is to obtain at least two significant big-league pieces. Boston's offer of Manny Ramirez and Matt Clement wasn't dismissed immediately, but it should be. The Orioles see Clement as talented but classically underachieving, a la Kris Benson.

 

While the Cubs are willing to deal Mark Prior, whose value decreased with durability questions, the Orioles are more interested in Carlos Zambrano or Derrek Lee, who haven't been offered.

[WCSox]

This "proven postseason commodity" stuff is pure crap.  Podsednik never played in the postseason either and did very well.  If you would honestly rather have Uribe over Tejada because Uribe put up good numbers in the postseason and is therefore a "proven postseason commodity," you're nuts.

 

That, we can agree on.

 

I can only think of two reasons to keep Uribe over Tejada: (1) It'll cost too much to trade for Tejada or (2) Tejada might be a prima donna (I have no idea if he is or isn't).

[Guest JimH]

We'll see whether Contreras signs an extension with the Sox.  I believe he will.  If you don't think he LOVES it here, then you didn't watch the postseason I watched.  Do you want me to find the articles about how he finally felt comfortable with a manager who speaks his language, how he was reunited with his family while in Chicago, etc?  I know baseball is a business, but I'd be shocked if Jose left of his own free will. 

 

My second point - that great pitchers are much more reliable in the postseason than great hitters - I think is borne out again and again.  Contreras was a horse for us in the postseason - never giving up more than 3 runs in 4 starts, and taking us deep into all 4 of his games.  Tejada, A-Rod, Barry Bonds earlier in his career, Frank and Maggs in 2000 - I'm sure I could find a lot of great hitters who went ice cold in October.  So a trade of Contreras for Tejada, even straight up, would weaken us in October in my opinion.  Pitching wins championships.  Look how the Yankees have struggled since their pitching went south. 

 

As for stats - what part of Tejada's postseason line do you like?  The guy never draws a walk.  Juan drew 5 walks in the ALCS and WS, even though we all know that Juan is a free swinger. 

 

I'm not suggesting Juan is a better hitter than Tejada - if you read my post I said the opposite.  I'm suggesting that it is probably not a good trade for the Sox to surrender one of their ace starters and Juan Uribe for Miguel Tejada if you are trying to build a team to win the World Series again.  Over the course of a regular season, Tejada's runs created value would make the trade fair.  But in the postseason, give me the great starter and the clutch-hitting great defensive shortstop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, I watched the whole postseason and the parade. I also know how Williams and Reinsdorf like to run the franchise which is something you are still unable or unwilling to grasp.

 

Tejada's postseason stats? Please, stop it. You can manipulate small samples any way you want. Tejada is arguably the top SS in the game.

 

The point, which I will reiterate because you are unable to grasp it, is if Contreras indicates an unwillingness to sign an extension, the Sox will move him rather than lose him for nothing.

 

If he signs, great, I love a deep pitching staff. If he won't sign, I want the best possible return. I suspect this is what Williams is thinking, again, I am trying to think along with him vs. what you do, which is throw out your opinion and ignore the way they do business.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, I watched the whole postseason and the parade.  I also know how Williams and Reinsdorf like to run the franchise which is something you are still unable or unwilling to grasp.

 

Tejada's postseason stats?  Please, stop it.  You can manipulate small samples any way you want.  Tejada is arguably the top SS in the game.

 

The point, which I will reiterate because you are unable to grasp it, is if Contreras indicates an unwillingness to sign an extension, the Sox will move him rather than lose him for nothing.

 

If he signs, great, I love a deep pitching staff.  If he won't sign, I want the best possible return.  I suspect this is what Williams is thinking, again, I am trying to think along with him vs. what you do, which is throw out your opinion and ignore the way they do business.

 

It appeared, and who really knows the whole story, like KW was more prepared to move Garland if he didn't sign than Contreras, who he said he would have to be overwhelmed to move. The White Sox appear to be leaking bad information, because the 2 guys who report on this situation the most, Levine and Cowley, and thus far been pretty wrong with their information. It could be KW thinks Contreras would be easier to sign if he played out the season with the Sox. Chances are other teams would be reluctant to give him a 5 year contract, whereas Garland, if he pitches in 2006 like he did in 2005 would have probably got 5. Personally, I think KW and JR are all about 2006 right now, and won't trade Contreras unless its a deal they feel makes the 2006 roster stronger.

[WCSox]

The point, which I will reiterate because you are unable to grasp it, is if Contreras indicates an unwillingness to sign an extension, the Sox will move him rather than lose him for nothing.

 

I'm not sure about that. Not sure why KW wouldn't want six legitimate starting pitchers, even if he has to lose one of them at the end of the season and gets nothing in return. If I were KW, I'd be more concerned about winning than the future. At the very least, I'd wait until July to make the deal. The Sox's needs for '06 will be more clear at that point.

 

But I wouldn't be opposed to dealing Contreras if KW could get a legitimate #2 hitter who could play CF and steal 30+ bases (I'm not talking about Taveras), another left-hander in the 'pen, and a good long-reliever who could close if Jenks doesn't pan out (e.g., Chad Qualls, Brendan Donnelly, etc.). In other words, it'd take a lot to move Contreras, but he could help fill some gaps if the right players would be available.

[Guest JimH]

I'm not sure about that.  Not sure why KW wouldn't want six legitimate starting pitchers, even if he has to lose one of them at the end of the season and gets nothing in return.  If I were KW, I'd be more concerned about winning than the future.  At the very least, I'd wait until July to make the deal.  The Sox's needs for '06 will be more clear at that point.

 

But I wouldn't be opposed to dealing Contreras if KW could get a legitimate #2 hitter who could play CF and steal 30+ bases (I'm not talking about Taveras), another left-hander in the 'pen, and a good long-reliever who could close if Jenks doesn't pan out (e.g., Chad Qualls, Brendan Donnelly, etc.).  In other words, it'd take a lot to move Contreras, but he could help fill some gaps if the right players would be available.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree and I am not sure either. This world baseball thing is a wild card, and the Sox are in a unique position having won it all.

 

Trying to read the tea leaves and follow along with KW's statements and his course of action. I like it when he said he'd have to be overwhelmed with an offer for Contreras, that's a good approach. That said, I think they'll either sign him to an extension fairly soon or trade him. I do not think they'll let this hang over their heads all season, but who knows.

[WCSox]

That said, I think they'll either sign him to an extension fairly soon or trade him.  I do not think they'll let this hang over their heads all season, but who knows.

 

I think that they'd rather keep him (unless he reverts back to his NYY stats), but that's JMO. I can never tell what KW's going to do next, but I have faith in him.

 

BTW, it's nice to know that there are some mature posters here that can disagree with me without turning it into a game of "pile-on" with their high school buddies.

Edited January 2, 2006 by WCSox

[sayitaintso]

I agree and I am not sure either.  This world baseball thing is a wild card, and the Sox are in a unique position having won it all.

 

Trying to read the tea leaves and follow along with KW's statements and his course of action.  I like it when he said he'd have to be overwhelmed with an offer for Contreras, that's a good approach.  That said, I think they'll either sign him to an extension fairly soon or trade him.  I do not think they'll let this hang over their heads all season, but who knows.

I agree with you Jim, it would be pointless to keep him for an entire season and not get anything in return if he doesn't sign an extension.