nitetrain8601 Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 10:41 AM) I'm not sure about that. Not sure why KW wouldn't want six legitimate starting pitchers, even if he has to lose one of them at the end of the season and gets nothing in return. If I were KW, I'd be more concerned about winning than the future. At the very least, I'd wait until July to make the deal. The Sox's needs for '06 will be more clear at that point. But I wouldn't be opposed to dealing Contreras if KW could get a legitimate #2 hitter who could play CF and steal 30+ bases (I'm not talking about Taveras), another left-hander in the 'pen, and a good long-reliever who could close if Jenks doesn't pan out (e.g., Chad Qualls, Brendan Donnelly, etc.). In other words, it'd take a lot to move Contreras, but he could help fill some gaps if the right players would be available. You get 2 draft picks at the end of the year and McCarthy another year under his belt and ready to move into the starter's slot while keeping the World Series pitching intact for this upcoming year to make another run. If I'm KW, I hold onto Contreras even if he doesn't sign an extension unless you can get a Tejada for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 QUOTE(sayitaintso @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 12:24 PM) it would be pointless to keep him for an entire season and not get anything in return if he doesn't sign an extension. Unless, of course, he continues to pitch like he did during the latter half of last year. In that case, they'd be crazy to trade him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 07:53 PM) You get 2 draft picks at the end of the year and McCarthy another year under his belt and ready to move into the starter's slot while keeping the World Series pitching intact for this upcoming year to make another run. If I'm KW, I hold onto Contreras even if he doesn't sign an extension unless you can get a Tejada for him. Iirc, a couple people have said that Contreras has a Matsuiesque clause in his contract, saying that the Sox have to release him by some particular day if they don't have an extension worked out. But by doing that, the Sox give up all claims to draft picks. I'm not sure if it's true, but if so, we would lose him for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 By 11/15/06. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 02:53 PM) You get 2 draft picks at the end of the year No you don't. Contreras becomes an unrestricted free agent if unsigned by 11/15/06. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(JimH @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 04:29 PM) Yeah, I watched the whole postseason and the parade. I also know how Williams and Reinsdorf like to run the franchise which is something you are still unable or unwilling to grasp. Tejada's postseason stats? Please, stop it. You can manipulate small samples any way you want. Tejada is arguably the top SS in the game. The point, which I will reiterate because you are unable to grasp it, is if Contreras indicates an unwillingness to sign an extension, the Sox will move him rather than lose him for nothing. If he signs, great, I love a deep pitching staff. If he won't sign, I want the best possible return. I suspect this is what Williams is thinking, again, I am trying to think along with him vs. what you do, which is throw out your opinion and ignore the way they do business. I'm not sure what your first point is. I said KW would try to re-sign Garland and that until they went to arbitration, there was time to work out a deal. You said he didn't want to play for the Sox but only wanted to go to the West Coast. Isn't that correct? I don't follow how you can continue to accuse me of being clueless. I know that KW and JR want to bring another WS championship to Chicago, and signing Contreras to an extension I believe is part of that plan. It is part of the plan because it makes the most sense. The point about Tejada isn't about small statistical samples. It is about whether a great pitcher is more valuable in the postseason than a position player. My point still stands and you've offered nothing to rebut it. Great pitchers are more reliable because they control the ball. That's why great pitching more often wins championships. In baseball the defense has the ball. Tejada can be shut down in the postseason, just like many other superstars - A-Rod was a perfect example this year. Great pitchers cannot really be shut down. It takes a rival great pitcher to beat them. Give me Contreras over Tejada straight up in every postseason from now until Contreras retires. This point is further hammered home by noting that hitters who are not great over the course of a season can nonetheless hit better than superstars do in the postseason. So, in the regular season, Tejada will outhit Uribe ten seasons out of ten. But in the postseason, Uribe hit better in 2005 than Tejada did in every postseason but Tejada's first try, in 2000. If Tejada were free and we could afford him, sure I'd take him over Uribe even in the postseason. But he's not free. Baltimore would demand starting pitching plus Uribe. That's not a trade that will help us build another World Series winning team. Finally, if Contreras doesn't sign an extension with the Sox this offseason, I'll be surprised. Right now the sides are posturing, just like the Konerko posturing or the Garland posturing. We'll see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Looks like we could have the upper hand in our offer for Tejada... According to the Boston Herald, the Red Sox may be asking for both Miguel Tejada and top prospect Nick Markakis from the Orioles for Manny Ramirez and Matt Clement. That's not going to fly. The Orioles are believed to be willing to move Luis Matos, but Markakis, like Erik Bedard, should be off-limits in talks. Another potential stumbling block in the rumored Ramirez-Tejada swap is that Ramirez may demand that his options for 2009 and 2010, worth $20 million each, be picked up in a deal. It'd be an incredibly foolish move on his part (his agent's part?) if he so badly wants out of Boston, because no team is taking him on at that price. Source: Boston Herald There's no way the Orioles would give up Tejada and Markakis for Manny and Clement and still add all of that salary to their payroll. Contreras, Uribe, and prospect(s) could get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 12:35 AM) Looks like we could have the upper hand in our offer for Tejada... There's no way the Orioles would give up Tejada and Markakis for Manny and Clement and still add all of that salary to their payroll. Contreras, Uribe, and prospect(s) could get it done. Doesn't it just seem like we'll be replacing a position that really isn't a hole? Uribe isn't the greatest, we all know that. But, he's far from a hole or a necessity to upgrade. I'd much rather they get a good reliever or two (an actual hole) or possibly a proven CF (possible weakness). It seems like we'll be removing depth from our rotation just to fill a hole that isn't even there instead of filling actual holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 02:12 AM) While I like the approach Kenny is taking with not wanting to go to FA with pitchers, this whole thing basically seems like making a big trade just to make it. Like you said, Uribe isnt the greatest, but he is far from being a hole. The bullpen is what needs to be addressed, along with an insurance plan if Anderson is a bust. As time goes on, I think I agree with you. If we can trade Count to Houston and get Tavaras, a bullpen guy, and a prospect, then that sounds like the way to go. I like Uribe and I am worried about the steroid cloud with Tejada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 11:12 PM) Like you said, Uribe isnt the greatest, but he is far from being a hole. The bullpen is what needs to be addressed, along with an insurance plan if Anderson is a bust. Even if Anderson turns into a bust (which i still highly doubt), think about this: we're not counting on Brian Anderson to be an amazingly important cog in our offense, not yet anyway. Rowand wasn't a huge key to our offense last year, and even if Anderson has a terrible year, his production won't be a massive downgrade from Rowand last year. Meanwhile, we have massively upgraded our offense in the 3-4 slots by getting a left handed power bat with a very high OBP (so that Konerko can drive in a few extra runs when he kills a ball). We're also hoping Iguchi can produce more runs next year simply because he won't need to hit the ball to right field every time he's up with men on, and AJP had frankly his worst season with the bat since he reached the major leagues last year, so he may well rebound also. On top of that, Crede still may find a way to not be as streaky, ditto Uribe, and we've massively upgraded our bench by removing at bats wasted on Timo. Our offense will be significantly better next year even if Anderson struggles, unless someone is seriously hurt. We need Brian Anderson to catch the baseball nearly as well as Rowand, and we need him to use his arm to get more outs on fly balls. Brian Anderson's bat has plenty of time to develop...right now I want his defense. If you add Tejada on top of that, well, then Brian Anderson could hit .100 and we'd still have one of the best offenses in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 11:18 AM) Even if Anderson turns into a bust (which i still highly doubt), think about this: we're not counting on Brian Anderson to be an amazingly important cog in our offense, not yet anyway. Rowand wasn't a huge key to our offense last year, and even if Anderson has a terrible year, his production won't be a massive downgrade from Rowand last year. Meanwhile, we have massively upgraded our offense in the 3-4 slots by getting a left handed power bat with a very high OBP (so that Konerko can drive in a few extra runs when he kills a ball). We're also hoping Iguchi can produce more runs next year simply because he won't need to hit the ball to right field every time he's up with men on, and AJP had frankly his worst season with the bat since he reached the major leagues last year, so he may well rebound also. On top of that, Crede still may find a way to not be as streaky, ditto Uribe, and we've massively upgraded our bench by removing at bats wasted on Timo. Our offense will be significantly better next year even if Anderson struggles, unless someone is seriously hurt. We need Brian Anderson to catch the baseball nearly as well as Rowand, and we need him to use his arm to get more outs on fly balls. Brian Anderson's bat has plenty of time to develop...right now I want his defense. If you add Tejada on top of that, well, then Brian Anderson could hit .100 and we'd still have one of the best offenses in baseball. When you talk baseball, instead of politics, I tend to agree with you so much more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdhargo Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) The latest from www.mlbtraderumors.com (take w/ grain of salt) states the the Red Sox and Orioles have made an initial agreement in the Tejada sweepstakes. "The word is the Tejada-Ramirez/Clement trade has been agreed to in principle by the two teams blocked only at this time with last minute complications caused by Manny." Complications? Manny? Nawww.... Edited January 3, 2006 by kdhargo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(kdhargo @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 01:16 PM) The latest from www.mlbtraderumors.com (take w/ grain of salt) states the the Red Sox and Orioles have made an initial agreement in the Tejada sweepstakes. "The word is the Tejada-Ramirez/Clement trade has been agreed to in principle by the two teams blocked only at this time with last minute complications caused by Manny." Complications? Manny? Nawww.... yeah, suprise suprise, reportadly Manny is demanding the O's pick up his two option years on his contract to agree to the trade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(SoxFan562004 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 11:28 AM) yeah, suprise suprise, reportadly Manny is demanding the O's pick up his two option years on his contract to agree to the trade Since the Red Sox don't give out no-trade clauses, aside from deciding he doesn't want to play or is going to dog it on the field, what leverage does Manny have here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(kdhargo @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 01:16 PM) The latest from www.mlbtraderumors.com (take w/ grain of salt) states the the Red Sox and Orioles have made an initial agreement in the Tejada sweepstakes. "The word is the Tejada-Ramirez/Clement trade has been agreed to in principle by the two teams blocked only at this time with last minute complications caused by Manny." Complications? Manny? Nawww.... Well this proves what a worthless rumor site this is. They use a fan message board as a source for the rumor. What next the mlb.com message boards will be the next credible source. If this is what they use for sources, what is next .DoDg3rsRul3 stated that he thought that Bill Mueller for Mark Prior was a reality. Only a physical is the difference maker. Our sources believe this is credible because DoDg3rsRul3 has 1000 posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 02:33 PM) Well this proves what a worthless rumor site this is. They use a fan message board as a source for the rumor. What next the mlb.com message boards will be the next credible source. If this is what they use for sources, what is next .DoDg3rsRul3 stated that he thought that Bill Mueller for Mark Prior was a reality. Only a physical is the difference maker. Our sources believe this is credible because DoDg3rsRul3 has 1000 posts. Well, if it was Balta1701, I would have to take this seriously. he has almost 8,000 posts, since April! Wow, he is filled with baseball 411. Edited January 3, 2006 by tonyho7476 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 02:43 PM) Well, if it was Balta1701, I would have to take this seriously. he has almost 8,000 posts, since April! Wow, he is filled with baseball 411. Or too much time on his hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 02:43 PM) Well, if it was Balta1701, I would have to take this seriously. he has almost 8,000 posts, since April! Wow, he is filled with baseball 411. Balta is too busy debunking MLB trade rumors to have time to make them up. Who is he, Bruce Levine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 02:55 PM) Balta is too busy debunking MLB trade rumors to have time to make them up. Who is he, Bruce Levine? Bruce Levine? Distinct possibility. Balta, reveal yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 11:57 AM) Bruce Levine? Distinct possibility. Balta, reveal yourself! I'd be impressed if Bruce Levine knows this much about geology and vacuum cleaners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 02:30 PM) Since the Red Sox don't give out no-trade clauses, aside from deciding he doesn't want to play or is going to dog it on the field, what leverage does Manny have here? Isn't manny a 5-10 player yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 03:24 PM) Isn't manny a 5-10 player yet? He just finished his fifth season with the Red Sox. So, that would be yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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