The Count possibly to the Astros?

[WCSox]

He just doesn't have the baseball IQ of a player like Jeter.

 

Physical superiority doesn't always translate into success on the field. Look at Michael Vick. He has all of the physical talent in the world, but is completely worthless when it comes to making decisions. On the other hand, Peyton Manning doesn't have the strongest arm ever and is a freaking statue in the pocket, but he knows a few things about reading defenses.

 

I'm sure that Uribe has an appreciable "baseball IQ," but Jeter's knowledge of the game and quick decision-making go a long way towards setting him apart from his peers.

[GoodAsGould]

Its amazing how whitesox players are so unbelievably overated on this board while guys like Blalock, Tejada, and Jeter are so underated and some people think are crappy.

 

Although I think WCSox overates Jeter some the rest besides JimH seem to way underate him. When it comes to fielding Id put Jeter top 10 in all of MLB and 4th in the AL.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 10:12 AM)

Tell me exactly how Minute Maid Park is such an asset hitters who have no power to LF?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What don't you get? He ONLY hits at that ballpark. His road numbers are atrocious.

I never advocated trading Contreras for Taveras straight-up, smarty-pants.

I didn't say you did.

 

And, by definition, Taveras is a "proven .291 hitter."  He did it over the course of a full season, didn't he?  I'm not saying that he'll definitely do it again, but he certainly did "prove" that he can do it.  Sorry, but you're dead wrong on that one, buddy.  On the other hand, Anderson hasn't "proven" anything, other than that he's able to hit .176 in 34 at-bats.  I expect Anderson to be the better player over the long run, but he may put up a Crede-like OBP next year.

:rolly

 

Why won't you answer my question then? Was Mike Caruso a "proven" .300+ hitter after 1998 after he batted .306? One year does not make a player, in fact, if a guy only has one good year, he is a fluke, not proven.

So "by definition" Esteban Loaiza is a "proven" 21 game winner, Brady Anderson is a "proven" 50 home run hitter, and Willy Taveras is a "proven" .000 hitter. Absolutely stupid.

 

Oh, and your use of the word "f***" makes you sound really intelligent and goes a long way towards strengthening your argument.  :headshake

It still better than dodging other people's questions or using tiny sample sizes.

 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, we now have your new 2006 Anthraxfan.

[Felix]

And let me guess you're making your defensive judgements on range factor?  Defensive statistics do just about no justice in showing how good a player is defensively.  You have to watch that player play or you'll have no idea.

Not range factor alone, no. Other stats, such as FRAR (fielding runs above replacement) or FRAA (fielding runs above average), along with range factor and zone rating and some others which I can't remember at the moment since I don't look at them every day indicate that he's far from being above average. Only in recent years has he been better, but in past years, he was one of the worst, if not the worst, in the league.

[WCSox]

What don't you get?  He ONLY hits at that ballpark.  His road numbers are atrocious.

 

You never explained WHY. (The answer is that there is no logical explaination.) Talk about dodging questions. :rolly

 

Why won't you answer my question then?  Was Mike Caruso a "proven" .300+ hitter after 1998 after he batted .306?  One year does not make a player, in fact, if a guy only has one good year, he is a fluke, not proven. 

 

And hopefully Anderson will prove that his .176 OBP in 2005 was a "fluke" as well. Never did I say that Taveras would be a "lock" to his .291 again. I simply said that he's done it before and that's more than anybody can say for Anderson at this point.

 

How about we stop beating this dead horse?

Edited January 2, 2006 by WCSox

[hammerhead johnson]

And let me guess you're making your defensive judgements on range factor?  Defensive statistics do just about no justice in showing how good a player is defensively.  You have to watch that player play or you'll have no idea.

 

Right, you watch the games and you supplement what you have seen with statistics, scouting reports, etc. I have seen plenty of Jeter action, and he is nothing special. He is solid when balls are hit right at him, but his range is run-of-the-mill. You only have to watch a few games to find that out.

[Rowand44]

Right, you watch the games and you supplement what you have seen with statistics, scouting reports, etc.  I have seen plenty of Jeter action, and he is nothing special.  He is solid when balls are hit right at him, but his range is run-of-the-mill.  You only have to watch a few games to find that out.

Defensive statistics are crap imo. Jeter isn't the best defender in the world but he's certainly not bad. If you base defense and stats alone then you have to find another tool because they will not give you an accurate judgement of that defender.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 03:46 PM)

You never explained WHY.  (The answer is that there is no logical explaination.)  Talk about dodging questions.  :rolly

I have no idea why a non-power hitter could do so well at a home ballpark that is similar to other ballparks (ie, not like the Twins' turf.) A fluke performance in Houston perhaps?

 

And hopefully Anderson will prove that his .176 OBP in 2005 was a "fluke" as well.  Never did I say that Taveras would be a "lock" to his .291 again.  I simply said that he's done it before and that's more than anybody can say for Anderson at this point.

Are you kidding me? The best way to describe BA's 2005 season is "fluke?" :banghead

He just got called up to the big leagues for God's sake.

 

How about we stop beating this dead horse?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will after you answer my question.

 

Was Mike Caruso a "proven" .300+ hitter after his 1998 season when he hit .306?

[hammerhead johnson]

Defensive statistics are crap imo.  Jeter isn't the best defender in the world but he's certainly not bad.  If you base defense and stats alone then you have to find another tool because they will not give you an accurate judgement of that defender.

 

There's no question about it. I'm a basketball guy first and foremost, and you wouldn't believe some of the defensive scouting reports that I've seen based on just stats alone. It's mind-boggling.

[hammerhead johnson]

Physical superiority doesn't always translate into success on the field.  Look at Michael Vick.  He has all of the physical talent in the world, but is completely worthless when it comes to making decisions.  On the other hand, Peyton Manning doesn't have the strongest arm ever and is a freaking statue in the pocket, but he knows a few things about reading defenses.

 

I was going to let this slide at first.

 

What you're saying here is that Peyton Manning is not blessed with loads of natural talent to supplement his smarts. That's a load of crap. That guy's arm is golden. Name me one guy who is more accurate in the current NFL. And are you trying to tell me that he doesn't have outstanding arm strength? The dude was born to be a QB.

 

God damn, man. Your posts are painful to read.

[Guest JimH]

Yes, what good are you if you don't have any range?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He doesn't have any range? That's news to me.

 

Now, if you are saying he doesn't have the range he used to have, of course.

 

Or, his range is currently not as good as Uribe's, I agree.

 

But "he sucks" because he doesn't have "any" range?

 

That's major generalization.

[WCSox]

Are you kidding me?  The best way to describe BA's 2005 season is "fluke?"  :banghead

He just got called up to the big leagues for God's sake.

 

I certainly hope a .176 OBP is a fluke. He won't be playing in the majors for long if it isn't. IMO, he'll be pretty good eventually... but that might not be for a couple of years. Borchard was touted as better hitter than BA and, well, he still hasn't panned out.

 

Your question about Caruso is weak and I won't bother answering it. You cherry-pick Caruso as an example of a player that had a promising beginning and then fell apart. Just as many players have done the opposite.

[WCSox]

What you're saying here is that Peyton Manning is not blessed with loads of natural talent to supplement his smarts.  That's a load of crap.  That guy's arm is golden.  Name me one guy who is more accurate in the current NFL.  And are you trying to tell me that he doesn't have outstanding arm strength? The dude was born to be a QB.

 

Manning's arm strength is good, for sure, but not as good as Vick's (or Favre's or Elway's was, for that matter). Many scouts said that Ryan Leaf's was better prior to the '98 draft. And Manning's a freaking statue in the pocket. But he is much more accurate than average. Then again, accuracy has more to do with practice than God-given natural talent.

 

If you don't like my argument, substitute Joe Montana for Manning. His arm strength was incredibly pedestrian.

 

God damn, man. Your posts are painful to read.

 

Then perhaps you should stop reading them. FWIW, you're cantankerous responses aren't exactly fun to read, either.

Edited January 2, 2006 by WCSox

[Milkman delivers]

There hasn't been any new news in this thread since the first few pages, right?

[SSH2005]

So, you're saying that Jeter isn't a good defensive SS?    Do you even watch baseball??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And you know this because Ozzie told you so?  :rolly

 

There's no reason that Taveras couldn't hit 9th.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taveras would hit second if he was on the Sox. I don't need Ozzie to tell me that. It would go with everything Ozzie and KW said earlier this offseason about adding a #2 hitter with speed so they could move Iguchi down lower in the lineup.

[Felix]

There hasn't been any new news in this thread since the first few pages, right?

Bingo.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 04:07 PM)

I certainly hope a .176 OBP is a fluke.  He won't be playing in the majors for long if it isn't.  IMO, he'll be pretty good eventually... but that might not be for a couple of years.  Borchard was touted as better hitter than BA and, well, he still hasn't panned out.

 

Your question about Caruso is weak and I won't bother answering it.  You cherry-pick Caruso as an example of a player that had a promising beginning and then fell apart.  Just as many players have done the opposite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's hilarious that you're complaining about "cherry picking" when you're the one using 34 AB's to judge BA, and then you compare him to Joe Borchard (cherry picker.)

 

You said "by definition" Taveras was a .291 hitter. I bring up Mike Caruso's name and you call me a cherry picker. Shouldn't the "definition" apply to all players?

 

Ah the hell with it. I'll take your own advice and stop reading your annoying posts.

[CWSGuy406]

On Tango Tiger's 2005 Fans Scouting Report, Yankee fans gave Jeter an overall 59, which is slightly above average. He ranked above average in every category except for the "First Step", in which he was rated 43 (50 being average).

 

So, hhj's comment of Jeter being neither horrid nor great defensively is right. He's also right in saying that Jeter is nowhere near as good defensively as Uribe is.

Edited January 3, 2006 by CWSGuy406

[YASNY]

Here's my thoughts on Derek Jeter. If had played his entire career with the Chicago White Sox or the Minnesota Twins, he'd be considered nothing specail. He's a good (not great) SS and a clutch hitter. He also has some damn impressive intangibles as part of his game. He knows the game and plays it using the best tool he's got ... his brain. But, if he wasn't in NY, he'd never make the HOF.

[DBAHO]

I certainly hope a .176 OBP is a fluke.  He won't be playing in the majors for long if it isn't.  IMO, he'll be pretty good eventually... but that might not be for a couple of years.  Borchard was touted as better hitter than BA and, well, he still hasn't panned out.

The difference b/w Borchard and Anderson is that Anderson has shown in his minor league career so far that he has a propensity to strike out less then Joe. He also had an OBP better then Borchard has put up in 3 minor legues seasons for Charlotte.

 

Joe's also hit never hit higher than .272 since 2002 (all of those seasons in Charlotte). Brian hit .270 in B-Ham in the 2nd half of 04 (notorious pitching park), and .295 for Charlotte in 05.

 

No-one's saying that Anderson's going to put up super numbers straight away. But if he can hit .250-.260 with 15-20 HR's, that's almost better then what we got from Aaron Rowand in 2005. I don't mind having Taveras, but there's the option of platooning Anderson with an OF, since Brian was terrible against lefties in his brief time up (but that's way too small of a sample size to go on), but Taveras wasn't good against them either.

 

Looks like the Astros are signing Preston Wilson for LF. Wonder how this will affect what they do with Taveras.

[Rowand44]

Here's my thoughts on Derek Jeter.  If had played his entire career with the Chicago White Sox or the Minnesota Twins, he'd be considered nothing specail.  He's a good (not great) SS and a clutch hitter.  He also has some damn impressive intangibles as part of his game.  He knows the game and plays it using the best tool he's got ... his brain.  But, if he wasn't in NY, he'd never make the HOF.

This I agree with. Jeter is a winner plain and simple, the guy makes plays to help a team win. He may be overrated in general but he's a guy I'd love to have on my team any day of the week.

[knightni]

Jeter is to SS what Jeff Kent is to 2b.

 

Decent power, limited range and glove skills.

Edited January 3, 2006 by knightni

[DBAHO]

I mentioned Chris Burke earlier in the thread as a possible option, if they decide not to go after Taveras. With the Astros looking like they're going to sign Wilson to play LF like I said earlier, suddenly you've still got that logjam of Biggio/Burke and Taveras for those 2B/CF spots.

 

Burke played 83 games in LF, 18 at 2B and 6 in CF in 05. He's versatile, and hits lefties well, which could be important, because Anderson really struggled against them in his brief time that he was up here (although I don't expect that to be the case in 2006). Just throwing out the possibility out there, if the Astros decide they want to keep Willy, but still want to make a run at Contreras. Now that they've signed a bat for their lineup, that may be the case, depending on their budget.

[WCSox]

It's hilarious that you're complaining about "cherry picking" when you're the one using 34 AB's to judge BA, and then you compare him to Joe Borchard (cherry picker.)  You said "by definition" Taveras was a .291 hitter.  I bring up Mike Caruso's name and you call me a cherry picker.  Shouldn't the "definition" apply to all players?

 

My view: Taveras hit .291, stole 34 bases, and played well defensively in CF last year. His bat is nothing special and his OBP isn't that impressive, but he's shown that he can handle major-league pitching and is far from a liability at the plate. His base-running and fielding skills fit well within Ozzie's paradigm of speed- and defense-based baseball and make him an attractive candidate to play CF for the Sox. At the very least, he could bat 9th (which is where Anderson would hit). If his OBP improves, he'd be a good candidate for the #2 spot. Anderson has had very limited MLB experience and did nothing special over those 34 plate appearances. Through no fault of his own, he hasn't proven anything yet at the major-league level and nobody knows if he'll be able to adjust to major-league pitching this year. If he could be acquired cheaply, a trade for Taveras could be beneficial for the Sox. Ozzie could platoon Taveras and Anderson, taking pressure off of Anderson and allowing him to develop slowly. Anderson is the projected long-term Sox CF. If he pans out as expected, Taveras could be traded. If Anderson turns out to be a bust, Taveras would provide the Sox with another (inexpensive) option.

 

Your view: Anderson should be handed the starting CF gig this year, despite the fact that his experience against major-league pitching is extremely limited. Despite the fact that Taveras hit .291 last year, he hasn't proven anything at the major league level because he could easily fall into a Mike Caruso-like slump that ends his career.

 

Ah the hell with it.  I'll take your own advice and stop reading your annoying posts.

 

They're only "annoying" to you because I won't let allow you to force your opinion down my throat. I've given you the option to "agree to disagree," but you declined. :headshake

Edited January 3, 2006 by WCSox

[southsider2k5]

My view... !ycmrem