The Count possibly to the Astros?

[Felix]

According to that horses*** table, the Red Sox should've scored 2.4366 runs in the 6th inning in game 3 of the ALDS.

Are you saying that with the bases loaded and 0 outs, they shouldn't have scored 2.4366 runs?

[WCSox]

Rowand truely is more valuable to a team than pierre. Sorry.

 

Rowand certainly has the advantage with power and slugging percentage, but that doesn't matter because Pierre's a leadoff hitter. Pierre's career OBP is 20 points higher and he's averaged close to 55 stolen bases/season over the past 5 years. Pods very clearly showed us how much of an impact a proficient base-stealer can have on a team. And the difference in defense is less than you think it is. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'm sticking with Pierre.

 

When i have made predictions in the past on who will slump i have usually be right on. I may be wrong with taveras but i doubt it... sure as hell no he will not exceed last years numbers.

 

This is nothing but speculation and prejudice on your part. You have absolutely no concrete evidence to back it up, yet continue argue the point for some unknown reason. It's a laughably weak argument, especially for someone who claims to have such faith in statistical analysis.

 

What makes you think that Anderson can't improve on his 2005 season in 2006 to a level like Taveras in 2005?  Look at the jump Willy made.

 

What makes you think that Anderson will be able to hit anywhere near Taveras' .291? At least Taveras has done it before over the course of a full season. Anderson hasn't done anything in the majors For all we know, he could be Joe Borchard, Part II. Anderson's still a giant question mark.

 

Call me crazy, but I'd rather play the guy who's actually done it at the major league level before... especially when I'm making another run at the WS.

[qwerty]

Right, it's an opinion.  Stats can be interpreted in accordance with one's opinion of the player.  Happens here all the time ... that's the point.

 

No stats needed for pierre's defense. You watch him out there and he might be even more painful to watch than podsednik... and we all know about podsednik. Ask marlins fans how fun he is to watch out there.

[WCSox]

According to you qwerty it's common sense, maybe he looks at common sense a little differently.

 

Common sense is not strictly limited to your interpretaton of it.

 

I like his style, he has some good points.

 

Thanks. It's nice to know that not everybody here is blinded by homerism and prejudice against certain players.

[Guest JimH]

No stats needed for pierre's defense. You watch him out there and he might be even more painful to watch than podsednik... and we all know about podsednik. Ask marlins fans how fun he is to watch out there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've watched him a lot, I don't have that opinion.

 

As I said, it's a subjective issue.

[Guest JimH]

Thanks.  It's nice to know that not everybody here is blinded by homerism and prejudice against certain players.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, people here have pretty strong opinions but they aren't necessarily homers, there is tons of criticism leveled at White Sox players here. Lots.

 

But I certainly agree with a lot of what you're saying.

[Felix]

Rowand certainly has the advantage with power and slugging percentage, but that doesn't matter because Pierre's a leadoff hitter.  Pierre's career OBP is 20 points higher and he's averaged close to 55 stolen bases/season over the past 5 years.  Pods very clearly showed us how much of an impact a proficient base-stealer can have on a team.  And the difference in defense is less than you think it is.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'm sticking with Pierre.

Rowands 2005 RAR (Runs above Replacement): 27

Pierres 2005 RAR: 12

Look at literally just about any defensive stat around. Rowand >>>>>> Pierre.

[SSH2005]

What makes you think that Anderson will be able to hit anywhere near Taveras' .291?  At least Taveras has done it before over the course of a full season.  Anderson hasn't done anything in the majors  For all we know, he could be Joe Borchard, Part II.  Anderson's still a giant question mark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since when is AVG the only good measure of a player's offense? OPS is a much better stat to measure a player's offensive capabilities. And I'd bet my left nut that Anderson puts up a higher OPS than Taveras's .666 OPS from last season.

[Dick Allen]

What makes you think that Anderson will be able to hit anywhere near Taveras' .291?  At least Taveras has done it before over the course of a full season.  Anderson hasn't done anything in the majors  For all we know, he could be Joe Borchard, Part II.  Anderson's still a giant question mark.

 

Call me crazy, but I'd rather play the guy who's actually done it at the major league level before... especially when I'm making another run at the WS.

He's projecting, just like major league organizations do. Using your logic, Taveras, considering his major league stats in 2004 should never have been given an opportunity by the Astros especially considering they were trying to win a championship to play in 2005. 1 year with a decent batting average, a few stolen bases, and basically crap offensive numbers everywhere else isn't exactly grounds to cancel the Brian Anderson experiment, and pick this average at best player up.

[WCSox]

Since when is AVG the only good measure of a player's offense?  OPS is a much better stat to measure a player's offensive capabilities.  And I'd bet my left nut that Anderson puts up a higher OPS than Taveras's .666 OPS from last season.

 

Since when has CF been a power position? And since when have players who average over 50 stolen bases/season and hit in the leadoff spot (not to mention th e higher OBP) been held to the same standards as those who hit 6th or 7th in the lineup and aren't particularly good at the plate OR on the bases?

Edited December 31, 2005 by WCSox

[qwerty]

Rowand certainly has the advantage with power and slugging percentage, but that doesn't matter because Pierre's a leadoff hitter.  Pierre's career OBP is 20 points higher and he's averaged close to 55 stolen bases/season over the past 5 years.  Pods very clearly showed us how much of an impact a proficient base-stealer can have on a team.  And the difference in defense is less than you think it is.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'm sticking with Pierre.

This is nothing but speculation and prejudice on your part.  You have absolutely no concrete evidence to back it up, yet continue argue the point for some unknown reason.  It's a laughably weak argument, especially for someone who claims to have such faith in statistical analysis.

What makes you think that Anderson will be able to hit anywhere near Taveras' .291?  At least Taveras has done it before over the course of a full season.  Anderson hasn't done anything in the majors  For all we know, he could be Joe Borchard, Part II.  Anderson's still a giant question mark.

 

Call me crazy, but I'd rather play the guy who's actually done it at the major league level before... especially when I'm making another run at the WS.

 

Jesus christ. 65% stealing bases in no way, shape, or form ends up helping your team in the long run. Difference in defense is less than i think? Most f***ing important part of the game ( ever hear of a pitcher?) especially when you were as strong up the middle as the sox were with uribe and rowand. No one team could match that... and if willie was playing at second too, no team could come close to the defensive prowess up the middle.

 

No concrete evidence? Well how about for one a s*** load of players go through sophmore slumps before that can get on with a successful career. Or that the batter usually has the advantage of the pitchers the first couple times around. The second season in pitchers have a much better handle on how to get guys out. Coming up from the minors the scouting report is much more limited than anything in the major league level.

 

You should basically never look at a lead-off mans ops but .666 in one of the best hitting parks around? His away numbers are really a better way to see what he is capable of because he is in all sort of enviroments and dimensions. Only think he does well is play defense and runs the bases very well, he is a smart, heads up player.

[qwerty]

Rowands 2005 RAR (Runs above Replacement): 27

Pierres 2005 RAR: 12

Look at literally just about any defensive stat around.  Rowand >>>>>> Pierre.

[SSH2005]

Since when has CF been a power position?  And since when have players who average over 50 stolen bases/season and hit in the leadoff spot (not to mention th e higher OBP) been held to the same standards as those who hit 6th or 7th in the lineup and aren't particularly good at the plate OR on the bases?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So getting power from center field is a bad thing? Would you rather have Juan Pierre / Willy Taveras in center field or Jim Edmonds?

[Guest JimH]

No concrete evidence? Well how about for one a s*** load of players go through sophmore slumps before that can get on with a successful career. Or that the batter usually has the advantage of the pitchers the first couple times around. The second season in pitchers have a much better handle on how to get guys out. Coming up from the minors the scouting report is much more limited than anything in the major league level.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sure there are examples exactly the opposite too.

 

It's subjective. If the White Sox truly like this guy, it's because their scouts see something, something more than one year of stats.

 

My point is, I can see why they like this guy, he is young, fast, steals bases, plays good defense and hits for average. Seems to be Guillen's type of player. Not a knock on Anderson, it is just the Sox like these types of players.

[Felix]

Just for fun, here are some 2006 ZiPS projections:

Brian Anderson: .263/.323/.425 21 2B, 3 3B, 16 HR, 6 SB, 3 CS (67%)

Juan Pierre: .293/.346/.364 22 2B, 10 3B, 2 HR, 52 SB, 22 CS (70%)

Willy Taveras: .293/.334/.342 12 2B, 3 3B, 3 HR, 37 SB, 20 CS (64%)

 

If they all put up similar numbers to those, not only will Anderson be better than Taveras and Pierre 2006, but he will be better than them in 2005 as well..

[WCSox]

Jesus christ. 65% stealing bases in no way, shape, or form ends up helping your team in the long run.

 

Pierre's CAREER stole-base percentage is 73%. Way to cherry-pick one years' stats to support your bad argument. :rolly

 

BTW, Pods' stolen-base percentage this season was 72%. Don't tell me he was a rally-killer.

 

No concrete evidence? Well how about for one a s*** load of players go through sophmore slumps before that can get on with a successful career. Or that the batter usually has the advantage of the pitchers the first couple times around. The second season in pitchers have a much better handle on how to get guys out. Coming up from the minors the scouting report is much more limited than anything in the major league level.

 

That's right. You have no concrete evidence. I'm sorry it's the best you can do because it's a laughably weak argument.

Edited December 31, 2005 by WCSox

[Milkman delivers]

This is gonna be a looooooooong thread, and I'm not helping with this post.

[sayitaintso]

Posting War.

[WCSox]

Just for fun, here are some 2006 ZiPS projections:

Brian Anderson: .263/.323/.425 21 2B, 3 3B, 16 HR, 6 SB, 3 CS (67%)

Juan Pierre: .293/.346/.364 22 2B, 10 3B, 2 HR, 52 SB, 22 CS (70%)

Willy Taveras: .293/.334/.342 12 2B, 3 3B, 3 HR, 37 SB, 20 CS (64%)

 

If they all put up similar numbers to those, not only will Anderson be better than Taveras and Pierre 2006, but he will be better than them in 2005 as well..

 

But we don't even know that Anderson can play at the major league level yet. So, it's all speculation.

[Felix]

But we don't even know that Anderson can play at the major league level yet.  So, it's all speculation.

So by that logic, minor league players should never be given a shot in the majors, since it would all be speculation on how they do.

[CWSGuy406]

BTW, Pods' stolen-base percentage this season was 72%.

That's right.  You have no concrete evidence.  I'm sorry it's the best you can do because it's a laughably weak argument.

 

Exactly. When Podsednik was stealing bases in the first half at a spectacular rate, and not getting caught, he was extremely helpful. When he was getting thrown out every time he attempted a steal in the second half (because of injury), he wasn't very helpful at all.

 

His argument is laughably weak? You have absolutely NOTHING that says Tavares can even hold Rowand's jock when it comes to defense (or Anderson for that matter), and all you have in favor of Tavares is BA (the worst and most overrated stat out of the "holy trinity" of BA/OBP/SLG), and SBs.

[SSH2005]

^^^^^^^^^^

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(WCSox @ Dec 31, 2005 -> 03:21 PM)

What makes you think that Anderson will be able to hit anywhere near Taveras' .291?  At least Taveras has done it before over the course of a full season.  Anderson hasn't done anything in the majors  For all we know, he could be Joe Borchard, Part II.  Anderson's still a giant question mark.

 

Call me crazy, but I'd rather play the guy who's actually done it at the major league level before... especially when I'm making another run at the WS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah yes, the ole' "well you answer this before I answer yours."

 

I'd much rather see BA take a hit in average if it meant his OBP for an entire season wasn't a crappy .325. How many of Taveras' "hits" were bunt singles in the infield? Brian is not the same type of hitter as Taveras which is why I expect him to have an OPS at least 100 points great than Taveras next season.

 

Why is hitting .291 such a big deal to you? It's nothing out of this world with the exception that the player's OBP is only .325.

 

Brady Anderson hit 50 homers in a season before. Maybe we should get him on the line to play CF.

 

We "all" don't know that BA could be Borchard part II because he hasn't had a chance to play an entire season like Taveras.

 

Sheesh, give him a chance before you throw him overboard. How confiendt were you in Taveras for 2005 after hitting .000 in 2004?

[qwerty]

Pierre's CAREER stolen percentage is 73%.  Way to cherry-pick one years' stats to support your bad argument.  :rolly

That's right.  You have no concrete evidence.  I'm sorry it's the best you can do because it's a laughably weak argument.

 

I am not cherry picking anything ( you really like that word btw). 73%? Thought you knew what i was talking about and did not have to make it known. 73% is still not good enough to help your team consistently. You want some really good base stealers... guys that actually help their team? Beltran... abreu... you have to be over 80% if you even think about it. Look up anything you want on base stealing and you will see 70%'s is nothing special.

 

I cannot believe how little you know about scouting reports the first year into the league compared to the next. It is drastically different. So many players go through a rough second year and it surely is not a coincidence.

 

Or is it?

 

Realistically i do not care about pierre that much. There was a fourty page thread on him for some reason before and i will never know why.

[WCSox]

So by that logic, minor league players should never be given a shot in the majors, since it would all be speculation on how they do.

 

Wow, another weak counter-argument. You're just full of them today, aren't you?

 

I'm simply saying that a team that's just won a WS and is in position to win another would be better off going with proven talent, rather than a question mark. It may not be wise to give up a starting pitcher for said proven talent, but a less-costly trade for said player is something that the GM should at least consider.