Garland Question

[Chisoxfn]

Jim, in my opinion -- and I could be wrong -- I think you're overstating Ozzie's quotes. 

 

What I mean by that is, if Kenny was really on board with getting another slap-hitting speedster, I think he would've had the better, left-handed Willie Taveras already (Juan Pierre).

 

I think that Kenny realizes the importance of power in his lineup, and I think he likes having three guys at the bottom of the lineup all capable of 20+ HRs (Iguchi/Uibe + Crede + Anderson).  I also think that he's extremely confident in Anderson's defensive capabilities.

 

Will Taveras gain more plate discipline?  Ehh, he might, but even at his peak, I don't think he's that great of a player.  If this were to be a move for further down the line, I think I'd dislike it even more, as we already have a guy like him in Jerry Owens. 

 

......

 

QM, you made a comment about everyone thinking Anderson will put up All-Star numbers.  Is .250/.315/.425 really the line of an All-Star.  'Cause, frankly, I have minimal expectations for BA in his first year offensively.  Really, his importance will come on how good he is defensively out in CF.

Keith your killing me.

 

Jerry Owens does not equal Willy Taveras. Owens is a guy whose going to have to hit to succeed in this league. Taveras will have to hit, but he can also play above average center field at the age of 24. He has a good arm for a CFer, great range, the ability to steal and he's shown the ability to hit major league pitching. In the minors he showed pretty good patience and my guess is you'll see his patience improve at the major league level.

 

If this guy were on the Sox last year, I think quite a few of us would be going crazy about Taveras potential to be a future leadoff hitter while serving as Pods 2 hole hitter for the next year or two (and than eventually replacing him).

 

Jerry Owens = 4th outfielder unless he can hit .300 with a good OBP and if he can improve his base runner ability. He needs to better utilize his speed. The fact that he plays Pods position, and NOT CENTER, is another fact that people need to realize. I don't see the Sox replacing Pods next year so Owens is going to be platooning at best at first and it won't be until next year (unless he tears the cover off the ball in spring training or if Pods gets hurt).

 

Jerry Owens is not capable of playing CF. NOT CAPABLE. Talk to people in the Sox org and they will tell you the same thing. In a pinch could he, I guess, but he'd be freaking horrendous out there. He'd be worse than Pods in CF and Pods is a crappy fielder.

[Chisoxfn]

AHH now here is a man who looks at more than stats. Very nice post. If we get Tavaras, we can then trade andersen for more bullpen help. Then the real prospect we have left (Sweeney) can develop. He is the only one left that I like at least until the next failed draft!

I actually agree with you on Sweeney, however Anderson has proved me wrong thus far. I pretty much have zero faith in Anderon's offensive ability. At his best I could see him turning into a Torri Hunter type player (a shade below defensively though) but thats not the type of player he'll be next year.

 

I could see him at best doing .250 with 15 HR's and 130+ strikeouts. However, if he looks like he did last year (which was worse than a freaking pitcher aside from his 2 HR game) I could see him hitting .180 and getting benched a few weeks into the season. I will need to see Anderson make adjustments and produce before I annoit him a can't miss player.

 

If he turns into a decent hitter he'll be a very good centerfielder due to his defensive abilities.

 

Also great points on Pierre (i think you made them on Pierre) about how Pierre would cost the Sox considerable cash and prospects while Taveras will be cheap and in the Sox control for a long time. Plus I think Kenny and Ozzie both realize how much good defense helps pitching and in all honesty Juan Pierre is not a good defensive outifelder, Willy Taveras is. Personally speaking...Taveras >>> Pierre (when you factor all things into it).

 

Of course I really don't care about CF at all (even though I'm far from comfortable about Anderson) simply because as long as we have someone that can catch the ball there, I don't think its going to be the reason we win or lose. However, Kenny needs to find another reliever and I'm confident he will.

[quickman]

Keith your killing me.

 

Jerry Owens does not equal Willy Taveras.  Owens is a guy whose going to have to hit to succeed in this league.  Taveras will have to hit, but he can also play above average center field at the age of 24.  He has a good arm for a CFer, great range, the ability to steal and he's shown the ability to hit major league pitching.  In the minors he showed pretty good patience and my guess is you'll see his patience improve at the major league level.

 

If this guy were on the Sox last year, I think quite a few of us would be going crazy about Taveras potential to be a future leadoff hitter while serving as Pods 2 hole hitter for the next year or two (and than eventually replacing him). 

 

Jerry Owens = 4th outfielder unless he can hit .300 with a good OBP and if he can improve his base runner ability.  He needs to better utilize his speed.  The fact that he plays Pods position, and NOT CENTER, is another fact that people need to realize.  I don't see the Sox replacing Pods next year so Owens is going to be platooning at best at first and it won't be until next year (unless he tears the cover off the ball in spring training or if Pods gets hurt). 

 

Jerry Owens is not capable of playing CF.  NOT CAPABLE.  Talk to people in the Sox org and they will tell you the same thing.  In a pinch could he, I guess, but he'd be freaking horrendous out there.  He'd be worse than Pods in CF and Pods is a crappy fielder.

 

damn it are you in my brain? Dead on. Tavaras is a better ball player than Andersen right now and one that fits Ozzies needs this year. He is cheap, and talented and has upside. We have contraras as a chip, we have two holes right now, Center field and bullpen. If tavaras is available and Qualls, then there is your trade. No stats just holes to fill. I too don't think it will happen.

[SSH2005]

Well, I don't think this trade is going to happen either because of KW's apparent manlove for Brian Anderson but I could see there being some truth to the Astros offering Taveras and prospects for Contreras. They could then try Chris Burke in center field. When Bagwell officially retires, they could then move Berkman to 1B full-time and put Luke Scott in LF. If Clemens decides to retire or they can't afford him anymore, I could see the Astros wanting to cover their bases with a guy like Contreras.

Edited January 2, 2006 by SSH2005

[Chisoxfn]

damn it are you in my brain? Dead on. Tavaras is a better ball player than Andersen right now and one that fits Ozzies needs this year. He is cheap, and talented and has upside. We have contraras as a chip, we have two holes right now, Center field and bullpen. If tavaras is available and Qualls, then there is your trade. No stats just holes to fill. I too don't think it will happen.

I think were definately seeing eye to eye on this and I think each team matches up decent, but I think Kenny has no problem sticking with Contreras and turning some of his lesser prospects into a reliever.

 

At the same time I could also see Kenny giving Tracey a shot and since I don't think this spot will cost the Sox a playoff spot halfway through the season Kenny would always have the option to make a move in late May/June to add a reliever if Tracey or Anderson aren't producing as par (just to bolster the club for a world series drive).

 

If Brian Anderson or one more reliever are the reason the Sox don't make the playoffs, I'll be shocked. Its going to come down to our rotation staying healthy and producing as well as the bats consistently scoring runs (not a ton, but just being able to execute and do enough). I think our offense (on paper) is better than last years and the pitching staff is deeper and more proven than last years.

 

The best part is this club is going to be able to continue to mold and gel and hopefully improve because you don't win it all staying the same. Kenny knows that and he's filled what he saw as voids in last years club. I'm quite confident we'll see another reliever and maybe we'll see Jose dealt to get him (or maybe we'll see prospects go for him).

 

Either way this has been unlike any offseason in past history. Kenny has been his agressive self and he's had the blessing from Jerry, Eddie and the other investors. I'm really excited for baseball season to start because I love how agressive this team has been and they have the right attitude of pitching, defense, and some timely hitting.

[Chisoxfn]

Well, I don't think this trade is going to happen either because of KW's apparent manlove for Brian Anderson but I could see there being some truth to the Astros offering Taveras and prospects for Contreras.  They could then try Chris Burke in center field.  When Bagwell officially retires, they could then move Berkman to 1B full-time and put Luke Scott in LF.  If Clemens decides to retire or they can't afford him anymore, I could see the Astros wanting to cover their bases with a guy like Contreras.

I tend to think a trade for Contreras would pretty much spell the end to Clemens in Houston. Financially I don't think the Astros could afford to give him 16-18 million for another year. They are in a total mess right now thanks to the contracts they've given out to a lot of older guys (people like Bags).

[quickman]

I think were definately seeing eye to eye on this and I think each team matches up decent, but I think Kenny has no problem sticking with Contreras and turning some of his lesser prospects into a reliever. 

 

At the same time I could also see Kenny giving Tracey a shot and since I don't think this spot will cost the Sox a playoff spot halfway through the season Kenny would always have the option to make a move in late May/June to add a reliever if Tracey or Anderson aren't producing as par (just to bolster the club for a world series drive).

 

If Brian Anderson or one more reliever are the reason the Sox don't make the playoffs, I'll be shocked. Its going to come down to our rotation staying healthy and producing as well as the bats consistently scoring runs (not a ton, but just being able to execute and do enough).  I think our offense (on paper) is better than last years and the pitching staff is deeper and more proven than last years. 

 

The best part is this club is going to be able to continue to mold and gel and hopefully improve because you don't win it all staying the same.  Kenny knows that and he's filled what he saw as voids in last years club.  I'm quite confident we'll see another reliever and maybe we'll see Jose dealt to get him (or maybe we'll see prospects go for him).

 

Either way this has been unlike any offseason in past history.  Kenny has been his agressive self and he's had the blessing from Jerry, Eddie and the other investors. I'm really excited for baseball season to start because I love how agressive this team has been and they have the right attitude of pitching, defense, and some timely hitting.

 

True true

[quickman]

I tend to think a trade for Contreras would pretty much spell the end to Clemens in Houston.  Financially I don't think the Astros could afford to give him 16-18 million for another year.  They are in a total mess right now thanks to the contracts they've given out to a lot of older guys (people like Bags).

 

 

They did with Bags what we DIDN't do with Thomas. Thomas was my favorite player but we did the right thing.

[chitownsportsfan]

Quickman:

 

What is your problem with using stats? I think you should read some of Kunes stuff on the nature of scientific revolutions, because you're acting just like his dinosaurs.

[santo=dorf]

So, how about that Garland trade idea?

[SSH2005]

So, how about that Garland trade idea? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Replace "Garland" with "Contreras", rinse, and repeat.

[CWSGuy406]

Jason, I'm really not trying to compare the two defensively. I have no idea how good Owens is (or isn't) defensively, and you (obviously) don't think he can handle CF. Seeing as how I've never seen the kid play, I'll take your word for it.

 

My comparison lies in their offensive capabilities. Low power, high AVG speedsters, and I tend to think both of their OBPs will be BA heavy, even if neither's were that way in the minors.

[SSH2005]

Jason, I'm really not trying to compare the two defensively.  I have no idea how good Owens is (or isn't) defensively, and you (obviously) don't think he can handle CF.  Seeing as how I've never seen the kid play, I'll take your word for it.

 

My comparison lies in their offensive capabilities.  Low power, high AVG speedsters, and I tend to think both of their OBPs will be BA heavy, even if neither's were that way in the minors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Their offensive games will probably be very similar but the fact that Taveras plays great defense in CF and has a great arm makes him more valuable than Owens. Owens is a left fielder. Just think if Taveras played LF instead of CF. His value would be far less than it is now. But I guess you could argue that when Podsednik is gone, we could just have Brian Anderson in CF and Jerry Owens in LF so it wouldn't matter much.

[Guest JimH]

Here it comes.

[Mr. Showtime]

Here it comes.

 

[quickman]

Quickman:

 

What is your problem with using stats?  I think you should read some of Kunes stuff on the nature of scientific revolutions, because you're acting just like his dinosaurs.

 

Stats don't necessarily mean the best team mates or the best ballplayers for this team. In addition I tend to like to see people play, I think I can judge for myself whether somebody is good or not. Personally I think we have a bunch of stat geeks around here they are so obsessed with stats it clouds there judgement before they actually see players for themselves ( in person) or on TV. Everyone rushes to the stat sheet. Just don't think baseball is played like that. I certainly do not believe Ozzie plays like that. And yes you can call me a dinosaur compared to all the teenagers who know everything as they have there parents pay for everything.

[WCSox]

Stats don't necessarily mean the best team mates or the best ballplayers for this team. In addition I tend to like to see people play, I think I can judge for myself whether somebody is good or not. Personally I think we have a bunch of stat geeks around here they are so obsessed with stats it clouds there judgement before they actually see players for themselves ( in person) or on TV. Everyone rushes to the stat sheet. Just don't think baseball is played like that.

 

Gee, who would those people be?

 

I certainly do not believe Ozzie plays like that.

 

According to the stat geeks, Carlos Lee is worth a lot more than Podsednik.

 

And yes you can call me a dinosaur compared to all the teenagers who know everything as they have there parents pay for everything

 

Couldn't have said it better myself...