witesoxfan Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Jose isnt that bad. Hes average tho. Like someone else said, an improvement would be nice but its not necessary. But until Joses hitting 40 homeruns a year with a .350 average and playing flawless defense, I prefer that he not tell other players to pick it up. If anyone should do that, its Frank, Maggs or Loaiza. And maybe DJ too... Jose realizes that he is not as good a hitter as Frank, Maggs, et al. However, he is the leader of the clubhouse, and until they start producing the way they should, I'm perfectly fine with him hounding on them. He is the leader of the team for a reason, isn't he? Frank, Maggs, Loz, and DJ don't do that because they aren't the LEADER of the team. Guys with good stats don't have to motivate their teammates....they don't have to do that kind of s***. The leader does that....and the leader does NOT have to be the manager. BTW....how many SS's in major league history have hit .350 40 ***(however many RBI) while playing flawless defense? If your answer in letter form starts out with anything other than a word that starts with 'z', you should rethink your position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 All I'm going to say is I don't know how this Winner argument is made on Jose. I don't have stats in front of me, but I'd say the 2000 Sox were the only playoff team he played on and I know he's been on a ton of losing teams. People get labeled has winners cause they play hard, etc, but there are plenty of guys in the majors that play hard and don't make all the mistakes Jose does. He's a below avg defensive shortstop and avgerage offensively. He is clutch and I Think he'd be a very productive utlility player, but he is not the shortstop I would want if I were on a world series type team. In the playoffs defense is about 10 times more important and with jose there you know there will be mistakes and playoff teams capatilize of anothers mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 You know, I just realized something. We could cross Derek Jeter(experience), Nomar Garciaparra(bat), Miguel Tejada(MVP), Omar Vizquel(defense) and ARod(power).....and we would still find something to complain about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 You know, I just realized something. We could cross Derek Jeter(experience), Nomar Garciaparra(bat), Miguel Tejada(MVP), Omar Vizquel(defense) and ARod(power).....and we would still find something to complain about. You left out the speed of Luis Aparicio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 All I'm going to say is I don't know how this Winner argument is made on Jose. I don't have stats in front of me, but I'd say the 2000 Sox were the only playoff team he played on and I know he's been on a ton of losing teams. People get labeled has winners cause they play hard, etc, but there are plenty of guys in the majors that play hard and don't make all the mistakes Jose does. He's a below avg defensive shortstop and avgerage offensively. He is clutch and I Think he'd be a very productive utlility player, but he is not the shortstop I would want if I were on a world series type team. In the playoffs defense is about 10 times more important and with jose there you know there will be mistakes and playoff teams capatilize of anothers mistakes. My point, Jason, cannot be found in stats. It's being in position to take the cutoff and knowing which base to throw the ball to. It's being vocal out on the field, telling guys what they need to know as they are trying to make a play. Sure, other players can do this too, but a majority of them don't.... They are more worried about stats (see Clayton) .... it's also doing the Sammy Sosa impression in the Wrigley dugout, then have the Cubs give up a big HR because they are all worried about Jose. He basically mindf***ed the Cubs out of that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 If he has another strong second half this time around and Sox cruise into the playoffs, with rise in attendance, I see the Sox picking up his option for 2004. Easily if Manuel stays. I hope Jose does stay with the Sox, but your right on your analysis of what needs to happen. I think if the Sox fall on their faces again this year we will be seeing new faces next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I think if the Sox fall on their faces again this year we will be seeing new faces next year. The Sox have been on their face since March 31 with only occasional signs of life shown..... very occasional Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 But until Joses hitting 40 homeruns a year with a .350 average and playing flawless defense, I prefer that he not tell other players to pick it up. If anyone should do that, its Frank, Maggs or Loaiza. And maybe DJ too... 1.) Frank couldn't lead a horse to water. His best years are behind him and he's a whiny little b**** at times..... preferring to blame evryone but himself for his decline in play. 2.) Maggs is the "strong, silent" type. Maggs, from what I've seen and heard, isn't the type to talk a whole lot of s*** at any time. If Maggs is a leader, and I believe he is in some way, he leads by example..... not words or actions. 3.)Given Loaiza's track record in seasons previous, he's probably overjoyed that he is a ML leader in pitching and is enjoying his first healthy season in a long time. A guy that has struggled throughout most of his career and only plays a game every 5 days could be a clubhouse cheerleader more than a clubhouse leader. So considering very few MLB players actually have CAREERS where they lead the team in most offensive categories or pitching W's-L's/ERA's/IP, etc., you'd prefer team leader by committe every year based on an individual players play? Leaders are born, not made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTC2784 Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Jose realizes that he is not as good a hitter as Frank, Maggs, et al. However, he is the leader of the clubhouse, and until they start producing the way they should, I'm perfectly fine with him hounding on them. He is the leader of the team for a reason, isn't he? Frank, Maggs, Loz, and DJ don't do that because they aren't the LEADER of the team. Guys with good stats don't have to motivate their teammates....they don't have to do that kind of s***. The leader does that....and the leader does NOT have to be the manager. I agree 100% there. The best player on the team shouldn't necessarily be counted on as a leader in any sport. It helps, but it's definitely not required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 being vocal on the field? knowing when to take the cutoff and where to throw it? isn't that part of the job for a shortstop? there are plenty of guys who can do that. Valentin isn't unique because he's a leader and plays hard, because like jason said, there are a lot of guys who play hard yet still perform. you think with all his hard work though he'd be a better player. I mean a guy in his mid-30s still can't fundamentally play shortstop after playing there his whole career? he's a 30 error shortstop an inaccurate arm, no hands, a pretty good at bat against RIGHTIES only, and is a pretty good hitter sometimes. on the other hand, he has good range, he's clutch, a good baserunner and leader? he has good range, but still has to throw it after if he even catches it in the first place. he's a clutch hitter with men on base, but only few guys are on base for him. the only way he'd get a lot of clutch at bats is in the 6-hole, a spot he can't bat at. he's a good baserunner, yet has a .296 OBP, which means he's not on base enough times to showcase it. he's a leader and "winner" yet has only been on one playoff team in his 12 year career. Valentin isn't that good and if we can find a young shorstop to take his place, we gotta do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJeter Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Valentin isn't even Mendoza vs. lefties over the past three years. I'd be curious to know if any other teams run a regular SS out there with that type of stat. If you already have one of the Sox' top hitters Graffanino (heh) in the lineup, this becomes a real problem in late innings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJeter Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Valentin isn't even Mendoza vs. lefties over the past three years. I'd be curious to know if any other teams run a regular SS out there with that type of stat. If you already have one of the Sox' top hitters Graffanino (heh) in the lineup, this becomes a real problem in late innings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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