WCSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 12:02 PM) 1 Billion?!? Holy Crap! Look at them, bloody Catholics, filling the bloody world up with bloody people they can't afford to bloody feed. That reminds me of LCR's rant about how the Catholic Church is working to spread HIV all over the world... And let's not even get into the Catholic Church's amazing efforts to promote and spread the global AIDS pandemic, especially in Africa by banning any form of contraceptive. Nevermind the fact that the Catholic Church doesn't have a law enforcement branch and can in no way "ban" contraceptive use. Nevermind the fact that a high percentage of African men don't wear condoms simply because they don't think it's "manly" or the fact that most Catholics in developed parts of the world use them anyway. And nevermind the fact that these same African men spread HIV by having extra-marital affairs with prostitutes (something that the Catholic Church is strongly against). Being a married woman in many parts of Africa is a death sentence... but it's not because of the Catholic Church. Edited January 5, 2006 by WCSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 12:54 PM) You make some good points, but obvious it's that LCR wasn't really trying to point out the difference. To the contrary, he didn't care if he stepped on the toes of a billion+ Catholics with his comments. And when he calls the members of the Catholic Church "hypocrites" and "fascists," that includes my priest. And I take offense to that. Funny, I thought it was quite clear that I was attacking the institution and the persons within the institution that kept their mouths shut while the Church has perpetrated some pretty horrendous activities over the years. It boggles my mind that seeing the massive moral corruption and amoral nature of so much of the Catholic church apparatus history that anybody would want to be a part of that organized religious apparatus. I believe it was Huey Long who once said "I don't need to experience the Word of God from some two bit preacher I could buy for five dollars and a bottle of whiskey. I'll experience it for myself." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 02:20 PM) It boggles my mind that seeing the massive moral corruption and amoral nature of so much of the Catholic church apparatus history that anybody would want to be a part of that organized religious apparatus. Might as well bash what you can't understand, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I just want to add to what Southsider said here. We are working on figuring out just what exactly the lines are on this forum. Obviously we created this forum and you all were going to have more rope. We don't monitor this forum much and there will obviously be times where you see something you totally hate and disagree with and eventually you'll have to walk away from it and ignore it and move on to another discussion. Thats just a fact of life in the filabuster. Where we stand on this forum, what are the limits, we don't exactly know. However, there are two ways we can go with this: 1. We can get more strict and tone things down which could essentially take away from the point of this forum (which was to encourage all out debate and at times people may go totally off the deep end; and while that comment may be totally wrong in most of our opinions or overly harsh it could in fact stirr up quite a bit of other side debate and intelligent debate). 2.We could keep things very loose and essentially keep this a free-reign forum. The obvious pro is that pretty much all discussion is allowed (aside from porn) or anything that would get this site or an indvidual in trouble but at the same time you will have the occasional comment or topic that totally goes against what you stand for (whether religious beliefs, politcial beliefs, or on what you feel is the proper sexual orienatation). Whether you guys like to admit it or not, there isn't a middle ground on this issue/forum because once we start going in and modding it turns back into a cesspool and it will basically further prove the original point I had when I essentially dumped political topics (the fact that people can't ignore their own personal agenda's for 2 seconds instead of listen, respond and end it at that; All too many times people take it too far and obviously that happens but in this new forum you all can do what you all, which is basically what you wanted in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 That's kind of par for the course in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 12:20 PM) Funny, I thought it was quite clear that I was attacking the institution and the persons within the institution that kept their mouths shut while the Church has perpetrated some pretty horrendous activities over the years. Funny, I thought it was quite clear that the Catholic Church was not working to spread HIV all over Africa. It seems to me that teaching people to behave responsibly (no pre-marital sex and no extra-marital sex) works towards the opposite goal. I find it really sad that you blame the church for the HIV epidemic in Africa, rather than the irresponsible and immoral behavior of the people. It boggles my mind that seeing the massive moral corruption and amoral nature of so much of the Catholic church apparatus history that anybody would want to be a part of that organized religious apparatus. It boggles my mind that you continue to insult Catholics on this board with your inflammatory rhetoric. I feel sorry for you. I couldn't imagine going through life with the amount of hatred that you carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 12:20 PM) It boggles my mind that seeing the massive moral corruption and amoral nature of so much of the Catholic church apparatus history that anybody would want to be a part of that organized religious apparatus. He's right. We should give up on being Americans as well, given the level of corruption in our government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 01:23 PM) Might as well bash what you can't understand, right? The Catholic Church and organized religion in general have done more to cause violence, hatred and evil on this planet than even the worst dictators could have ever hoped for. More blood has been spilled in the name of sectarian religion than any other cause. But they do a few good things! That surely makes up for all the blood they've spilled and all the crimes they've committed I bash people who proclaim to be the moral font for the world (i.e. the Catholic Church) when they've got some of the bloodiest hands on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 02:33 PM) He's right. We should give up on being Americans as well, given the level of corruption in our government. I was gonna give it up because of slavery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 02:34 PM) I bash people who proclaim to be the moral font for the world (i.e. the Catholic Church) when they've got some of the bloodiest hands on the planet. And I bash close-minded idiots who spin the truth so they can spew their idiotic messages and cause needless controversy. Good luck with your bashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Awww. Closure finally! Group hug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 12:34 PM) The Catholic Church and organized religion in general have done more to cause violence, hatred and evil on this planet than even the worst dictators could have ever hoped for. More blood has been spilled in the name of sectarian religion than any other cause. Wow, so he's graduated from anti-Catholic to anti-organized religion. How could we be so blind to follow these immoral organized religions! :headshake Edited January 5, 2006 by WCSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 11:34 AM) I bash people who proclaim to be the moral font for the world (i.e. the Catholic Church) when they've got some of the bloodiest hands on the planet. Thats like still blaming the US and Europe and everyone else still for the slave trade. Religion in general has led to more deaths and more wars than any other cause. Its not right, the crusades weren't right. That said, in more recent times, Religion has done far more good than bad. You can't tell me about what something as old as organized religion did a few hundred years ago to base how you judge them, but you base it on what they've done more recently and more recently for the most part they've done a lot of good. Like anything there has been some bad things, but when you are talking about a group as large as the catholic church or any major religion for that matter, your going to have those small minorities of people that have done wrong and created harm. Was the catholic church wrong in how they handled all the pedophiles. Your damn right they were and they still are. They need to come out and admit the problem and take care of the problem. That said to bunch them all up as doing no good and being pedophiles is completely ridiculous. But to go on and ignore the good things churches have done would be ignorant. I'm not a religious person but I do take offense to those that actually slam the concept of religion and the fact that in general if society based things off the 10 commandments or most major religious doctrines and beliefs, that our world would be a far better place. The problem is you have those groups that take things to the extremes. I can't speak for much but my aunt happens to be a minister and I've seen all the good she's done for people in her church and the community in which the church is in. They don't just help out christians they help people that are in need and for that I commend her and the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 01:38 PM) And I bash close-minded idiots who spin the truth so they can spew their idiotic messages and cause needless controversy. Good luck with your bashing. Yeah Flaxx and I spun the Truth that the anti-contraceptive campaign has been partially responsible for the spread of the global AIDS pandemic, increased overpopulation etc., that the Church apparatus knowingly abetted child rapists for 40+ years and moved them into new communities where their crimes were unknown, shielding these evil bastards from civil authorities. If you want to talk about idiotic messages, at least I'm not acting as an apologist for an institution that has been part of mass exterminations and coddled men who molested and raped small children. (And no MrEye, this isn't about you and other Catholics...this is purely about those who are apologists for the Church apparatus, failing to see that it has a helluva lot of blood on its hands) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 02:16 PM) You know I wouldn't be laughing at that. But that is the current subject of this conversation, and you stated that the lack of help the victims (the meek) got from fellow Catholics was somehow humorous. And my point in alluding to the central tenet of the faith (That which you do unto the least of My brothers you do unto Me) was to underscore how corrupt and off-mission the institution has become. The least of your brothers and sisters have been repeatedly sexually abused by the very people who are supposed to protect and guide them through this hard world. The least of your brothers and sisters have been accused of fabricating stories when they come forward. And since you were nice enough to call me out about finding a specific quote, here is the one that I was thinking of when I made my statement: "I just find it hilarious that Sleepy et al. seem to be defenders of an organization that coddled rapists and those complicit in mass exterminations." And there is the crux of the matter. Is the quiet "outrage" of the Catholic membership over these atrocities an approprate response now that the matter has been exposed. LCR doesn't believe so. Obviously, though, lots of Catholics think so. It is no longer my place to do much about it, other than voice my opinion when the discussion comes up. I chose to leave the hypocracy rather than remaining a part of it. Without wanting to start an entirely new argument, LCR's contention that the Vatican capitulated to and appeased the emerging Nazi Party is 100% historically accurate. And I'll not go so far as a systematic Catholic genocide-by-AIDS campaign, but I agree that the Church in its intractability regarding birth control is complicit in the spread of the disease in Africa. I don't recall if it was you or WC who basically said, 'well, if they were good faithful Catholic spouses it wouldn't be an issue.' But that completely ignores the reality that the acts of an adulterous husband can lead to the wife getting infected even if she is 100% faithful. If the Church fails to allow her to protect herself (realistically she cannot withhold sex from the husband who can rape her at will), they are complicit in her contracting the virus if she obeys the Church teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 01:26 PM) I just want to add to what Southsider said here. We are working on figuring out just what exactly the lines are on this forum. Obviously we created this forum and you all were going to have more rope. We don't monitor this forum much and there will obviously be times where you see something you totally hate and disagree with and eventually you'll have to walk away from it and ignore it and move on to another discussion. Thats just a fact of life in the filabuster. Where we stand on this forum, what are the limits, we don't exactly know. However, there are two ways we can go with this: 1. We can get more strict and tone things down which could essentially take away from the point of this forum (which was to encourage all out debate and at times people may go totally off the deep end; and while that comment may be totally wrong in most of our opinions or overly harsh it could in fact stirr up quite a bit of other side debate and intelligent debate). 2.We could keep things very loose and essentially keep this a free-reign forum. The obvious pro is that pretty much all discussion is allowed (aside from porn) or anything that would get this site or an indvidual in trouble but at the same time you will have the occasional comment or topic that totally goes against what you stand for (whether religious beliefs, politcial beliefs, or on what you feel is the proper sexual orienatation). Whether you guys like to admit it or not, there isn't a middle ground on this issue/forum because once we start going in and modding it turns back into a cesspool and it will basically further prove the original point I had when I essentially dumped political topics (the fact that people can't ignore their own personal agenda's for 2 seconds instead of listen, respond and end it at that; All too many times people take it too far and obviously that happens but in this new forum you all can do what you all, which is basically what you wanted in the first place. I like this forum how it works and vote for option 2. I can think that LCR is dead wrong on an issue, but respect his right to post it. I like this forum because I like to argue/debate and with all of the pinko leftist liberals(maybe that shouldnt be green) I get my chance to debate/argue. This forum is not for children, the weak of heart, or for those who are afraid to express their opinions. Its SLaP on steroids. LCR is enttitled to his opinion, however wrong it may be . I know when I read his posts that I am probably not going to agree with it. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to thoughts about religion, politics and all. I am not for censoring his opinion. My only hope is that this forum keeps the fair tide when all types of discussions begin. Something that I may post might and probably will offend those on the left. When they read my posts I am sure they have a clue what they are getting and my stylings as a poster in this forum. The mod team in this forum are mainly from the left, which I know doesnt encompass the majority of the admin team. As long as they are not quick to close threads they dont agree with, then I am cool with it. Like I have a say in it anyways . The only threads that should be offtopic are those that are personal attacks in nature, or those that involve the posting of porn(But if you have some porn please send it to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 10:42 AM) True story... because the title of this thread is so long, it shows up on the main board as "You know what I really f***..." I'm going to be laughing at that All day now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 02:18 PM) Being a married woman in many parts of Africa is a death sentence... but it's not because of the Catholic Church. OK, WC, you added this while I was addressing the same topic. And I stand in part corrected, in that you do understand that the unfaithful husband can infect a faithful spouse through no faultt of her own. I disagree with your complete exhonoration of teh Church however. Women can use barrier protections that the husbands don't even need to know about, but that is against Catholic teaching. So standing by an archaic prohibition against birth control seems to be more important to the Church than the healths and lives of the women in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 12:42 PM) this is purely about those who are apologists for the Church apparatus, failing to see that it has a helluva lot of blood on its hands) Nobody's "failed" to see anything. And nobody's acting as an "apologist" for the Catholic Church. EVERYBODY knows about these horrific acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 01:42 PM) Yeah Flaxx and I spun the Truth that the anti-contraceptive campaign has been partially responsible for the spread of the global AIDS pandemic, increased overpopulation etc., that the Church apparatus knowingly abetted child rapists for 40+ years and moved them into new communities where their crimes were unknown, shielding these evil bastards from civil authorities. If you want to talk about idiotic messages, at least I'm not acting as an apologist for an institution that has been part of mass exterminations and coddled men who molested and raped small children. (And no MrEye, this isn't about you and other Catholics...this is purely about those who are apologists for the Church apparatus, failing to see that it has a helluva lot of blood on its hands) Again here is a bit of hypocracy that the church shouldnt be responsible for the myth that the Catholic church is responsible for the spread of global aids. If a person is so oober religious that they must listen to the edict about anti-contraceptive. How are they getting aids. Yes their husband/wife could be a hemophiliac or got it through a blood transfusion. But for it to be about the contraceptives it must be through poking everything around. So they are so moral that "I cant wear a rubber because its against the church" and then 10 minutes later, "Well Kelly its time to get it on, I know we are not married and that is against the teachings of the catholic church, but at least I am not wearing a rubber so I am good to go. 2 sins gets me to hell, but 1 doesnt." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 12:49 PM) I disagree with your complete exhonoration of teh Church however. Women can use barrier protections that the husbands don't even need to know about, but that is against Catholic teaching. So standing by an archaic prohibition against birth control seems to be more important to the Church than the healths and lives of the women in this case. Agreed that the Church's rules about contraception are silly in some ways, but most of the Catholics I know use them anyway. And, as I said, it's not like the Catholic Church has their own secret police who survey that goings-on in bedrooms in Africa. Africa's problem isn't one of birth control. It's one of behavior. If women were treated like human beings over there, rather than possessions and sexual objects, the HIV epidemic would be much less severe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 11:53 AM) Agreed that the Church's rules about contraception are silly in some ways, but most of the Catholics I know use them anyway. And, as I said, it's not like the Catholic Church has their own secret police who survey that goings-on in bedrooms in Africa. Except for that one dastardly omnipotent being! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 02:50 PM) Nobody's "failed" to see anything. And nobody's acting as an "apologist" for the Catholic Church. EVERYBODY knows about these horrific acts. You'd think it's a fairly easy concept to comprehend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 11:53 AM) Agreed that the Church's rules about contraception are silly in some ways, but most of the Catholics I know use them anyway. And, as I said, it's not like the Catholic Church has their own secret police who survey that goings-on in bedrooms in Africa. Africa's problem isn't one of birth control. It's one of behavior. If women were treated like human beings over there, rather than possessions and sexual objects, the HIV epidemic would be much less severe. I agree completely with you. Whats going on in Africa is totally disgusting and insane but it doesn't stem over missionaires over there. It stems with there beliefs and behaviors which are downright deplorable if you ask me. Women have absolutely zero say and can't even imply to use contraception and if the husband finds out they used some sort of contraception they will likely be beaten and potentially murdered. All this the husband is out there cheating at will and even if the wife is loyal she still has a good shot at getting HIV. There is a lot wrong in Africa but the Catholic church is not it. Could they do things better, sure, I think they'd be smart to sometimes adjust things when things change around the world (ie birth control is developed and it can protect things for those that don't follow the rules of being abstinent till marriage). However you should do what morally write and tell people if they are going to have sex they should be smart and protect themselves. Africa is a total mess and its a situation I don't see being solved in a long time. The men over there run around like savages and the women are essentially left helpless only to eventually get HIV and die. Its sad and pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 5, 2006 -> 01:53 PM) Agreed that the Church's rules about contraception are silly in some ways, but most of the Catholics I know use them anyway. And, as I said, it's not like the Catholic Church has their own secret police who survey that goings-on in bedrooms in Africa. Africa's problem isn't one of birth control. It's one of behavior. If women were treated like human beings over there, rather than possessions and sexual objects, the HIV epidemic would be much less severe. Well its it the fault of the catholic church that the 13 year old girl gets raped in Africa because the older man thinks that he can get rid of his aids by having sex with a virgin. You know if that guy had raped her with a condom on he would be ok. But he couldnt wear the rubber as it is a sin. Damn you catholic church. Sex with a virgin can cure HIV' Under myths/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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