Recruiting Thread

[WHarris1]

it should be awesome coaching of s***ty players versus s***ty coaching of awesome players.

But Turner is not an awesome coach, he is a decent at best coach of s***ty players. Which is who after all I am comparing Zook to.

 

Awesome coaches don't grow on trees so I would said Zook was a pretty good choice for a team that couldn't get s*** for talent.

Edited January 12, 2006 by WHarris1

[Soxbadger]

No Zook was not a choice, I believe that he was really the only option that Illinois had.

 

There program was going no where, they are in a terrible recruiting spot, and most of the home grown talent already looks at Michigan, ND, OSU as better places to play. Illinois just did not have much on the table to go out and get a stud coach with.

 

That being said, I think that Illinois could have taken a look at a guy who is in a Mid Major, or small conference and wooed him with the chance of being in a big conference.

 

Zook just does not do much for me as more than a place holder.

 

Still Zook is not getting awesome players, hes getting good players. And his coaching is not that much of an improvement over Turner. His recruiting however is.

 

(Edit)

 

Would you rather have Self, the recruiter, or Weber, the coach?

Edited January 12, 2006 by Soxbadger

[AddisonStSox]

I love using terms like "decent to good," "s***ty or awesome coaching," and the like. It's really easy to take things seriously using such impressive rhetoric.

 

This program is significantly better with Zook than Turner, huh? Significantly better?

 

Well, I've been enrolled at that very university for seasons under Zook and Turner, seeing nearly every game in person and I guarantee you this team is not significantly better.

[WHarris1]

Well, I've been enrolled at that very university for seasons under Zook and Turner, seeing nearly every game in person and I  guarantee you this team is not significantly better.

Of course they aren't significantly better yet, Zook's recruits haven't even seen the field much. We have already established the fact that Zook is a recruiter and not a great coach. So how can you judge what he has done here without any of his recruits even playing?

Edited January 13, 2006 by WHarris1

[SnB]

I don't like the term willie used here, but I do agree that the University is in a better situation now w/ zook than it was with turner, even if it's not significant.

 

If zook can get the players in here to win 3 or 4 big 10 games a year, then at least the program is doing something productive and on the upstart. At that point, hopefully the program will have some legs and will continue to grow.

[WHarris1]

Would you rather have Self, the recruiter, or Weber, the coach?

Weber, the coach, easy. I never said I would take a great recruiter over a great coach.

[whitesoxfan101]

I think it is pretty clear that the thought of Illinois even having an adequate football program to go with the basketball program makes fans of other Big Ten teams extremely nervous (that's not a shot at those here, it's obvious anywhere you go and bring this subject up).

[Rex Hudler]

I think it is pretty clear that the thought of Illinois even having an adequate football program to go with the basketball program makes fans of other Big Ten teams extremely nervous (that's not a shot at those here, it's obvious anywhere you go and bring this subject up).

 

Why would that make anyone nervous??

[whitesoxfan101]

Why would that make anyone nervous?? 

 

Confuses me a bit to be honest. I guess maybe because they'd have nothing to make fun of in regards to the Illini if the football team was adequate?

[Rex Hudler]

Confuses me a bit to be honest.  I guess maybe because they'd have nothing to make fun of in regards to the Illini if the football team was adequate?

 

Sounds to me some think too highly of Illinois program (meaning themselves). I don't see anyone being too worried about Illinois being good in any sport any more so than any other team.

 

If they are good in football, so be it. They'll still have to compete with Michigan, Ohio St, Wisconsin, Iowa and Penn St. Don't see any of those schools too worried.

[Soxbadger]

In football if you are fearing Illinois, or Illinois in 10 years, you are a bottom dweller in the Big 10. Illinois is not going to touch OSU or Michigan, and it looks like Penn State may be coming back. You are talking about two or three of the best teams in the nation, teams that over all record can stack up to the greatest programs of all time.

 

In basketball I look at the Illini and MSU as the yearly challenges for Wisconsin. Michigan used to be something to fear, but lately they just havent gotten the job done. Indiana has been up and down, but in my opinion on a downward slide for a few years. OSU looks to be a good team now, but whether or not that will go on passed Oden is questionable.

 

As for making fun of Illini?

 

Outside of basketball they are just not a rival, and really Minnesota and Michigan are more disliked. I dont even think Wisconsin has a ceremonial trophy with the Illini in football.

 

Really I just feel sad, because as some one born in Illinios, and who grew up as an Illini fan watching Jeff George and rooting for some pretty bad teams, I just wish they could do something. But when I see Zook, I see nothing.

 

Maybe he will prove me wrong and be the Barry Alvarez of Illinois (Alvarez is a terrible coach by the way but excellent recruiter), but if you cant win at Florida with Spurriers talent, I just dont have that confidence.

 

Generally you inherit a sweetheart program like a Miami, LSU, you are still good because you have all the players the coach before recruited and had ready to go.

 

SB

Edited January 13, 2006 by Soxbadger

[illinilaw08]

Alright, I feel the need to jump in on this Zook discussion. As a glass half full guy, I can point to several reasons that the University of Illinois is better off with Zook. First of all this recruiting class IS incredibly impressive. Zook sold the program to a lot of very good high school players when the results on the field this year were absolutely pathetic. It is also very unfair to judge Zook based on the team's performance this year. When Turner left, the talent cupboard, especially on the defensive side of the ball was absolutely empty. Illinois started one of the highest numbers of upperclassmen in the country this year, and that will translate to a lot of losses for a college football team. Zook's impact as a recruiter will be noticeable in terms of record 3-4 years down the road when his players have gained experience.

 

The next point I want to bring up is that Zook is a poor coach. Now I did not follow his Florida teams all that closely, so I will not judge his performance there. However, another guy who "can't coach" just won a national title for Texas and the guy coaching opposite him was a major failure as an NFL coach. If Zook can bring in top 25 talent, Illinois will be a top 25 team.

 

That being said, I do not expect Illinois to consistently be able to compete with Michigan and Ohio State, but it is not an unreasonable expectation for Illinois to go to a bowl game almost every year and contend for a Big 10 title once every five years. Based on what Zook has shown as a recruiter thus far, there is no reason in my mind that he cannot accomplish that.

[thedoctor]

criticisms of zook's coaching are valid. i watched a lot of florida games when he was there and plenty of illinois games last year, and i clearly have tons of questions as to whether he can get it done on the field.

 

all that said, he deserves the benefit of the doubt like any new coach. when he gets talented players in the program, then i can more accurately judge whether or not his coaching ability is sub-par or not. as for what i expect, i probably expect very little. most illinois fans do. if illinois was able to be a consistent middle of the pack program and challenge for the league title every few years, i'd probably be happy.

 

but back on-topic, the ncaa has approved akim millington's transfer to illinois from oklahoma. millington was slated to be the starting right tackle for the sooners last year, but left school before the season. he will be eligible next year and you can probably pencil him in as a starter right now.

 

akim millington

[thedoctor]

article on illinois recruiting from st. louis post-dispatch

[danman31]

Illinois has outrecruited Northwestern for years and look at where the programs are. NU is consistently a solid team, looking like they are going to be able to make a bowl game in most years. Walker finds diamonds in the rough and coaches up his players. Meanwhile, Illinois continues to do less than nothing with their 'talent'. Illinois has a long way to go and these good recruits don't scare me one bit because they have had better talent than the results they have been producing for a while now. Zook was a good hire because U of I had nothing to lose. With that said, he may or may not improve the program.

[Chisoxfn]

No Zook was not a choice, I believe that he was really the only option that Illinois had.

 

There program was going no where, they are in a terrible recruiting spot, and most of the home grown talent already looks at Michigan, ND, OSU as better places to play. Illinois just did not have much on the table to go out and get a stud coach with.

 

That being said, I think that Illinois could have taken a look at a guy who is in a Mid Major, or small conference and wooed him with the chance of being in a big conference.

 

Zook just does not do much for me as more than a place holder.

 

Still Zook is not getting awesome players, hes getting good players. And his coaching is not that much of an improvement over Turner. His recruiting however is.

 

(Edit)

 

Would you rather have Self, the recruiter, or Weber, the coach?

Or lets talk Big 10 football. Ferentz, whom hasn't had great recruiting classes to work with or some guy like Zook who does a good job recruiting. I know one thing, Ferentz gets his guys and makes em better.

 

He hasn't had much of a recruiting class, but I'm hoping his statement where he once again turned down the pro's will help get a couple more good recruits in. IIRC they had a good recruiting class last year (especially by Iowa's standards).

 

Oh and I'd take Ferenzt (a hell of a coach, maybe not the greatest recruiter) over just a recruiter any day of the week.

[Rex Hudler]

This is indirect recruiting news, but apparently Michigan running back Max Martin has left school and enrolled at Alabama.

[illinilaw08]

Or lets talk Big 10 football.  Ferentz, whom hasn't had great recruiting classes to work with or some guy like Zook who does a good job recruiting.  I know one thing, Ferentz gets his guys and makes em better.

 

He hasn't had much of a recruiting class, but I'm hoping his statement where he once again turned down the pro's will help get a couple more good recruits in.  IIRC they had a good recruiting class last year (especially by Iowa's standards). 

 

Oh and I'd take Ferenzt (a hell of a coach, maybe not the greatest recruiter) over just a recruiter any day of the week.

 

Ferentz outrecruited Turner in Illinois the past couple years. Turner had extreme trouble recruiting highly rated players that were not running backs. I do think that Ferentz is a very good coach AND a good recruiter and in direct response to this, one of the first things Zook said as head football coach was that Illinois needs to seal the border and stop the top players in the state from going to Iowa. My argument is merely that Illinois needed better recruiting, Zook will bring that, and then let's see what he can do with the talent.

[Palehosefan]

Thats a very nice pick-up for Bama Rex. You obviously know much more about the situation than me, but Max was a highly rated RB from Bama, and looked like he would have gotten significant time at UM if not for recurring injury problems and blocking struggles, which Carr said were improved this offseason. Atleast thats my take on it.

 

Yes Jason, Iowa had a great recruiting class last year, by anyone's standards, and should have a nice building block that could push you guys to a national title chase for a few years as they mature.

 

As for coaching vs. recruiting. You can win with one or the other, and you will win big with if you can find one with both. No matter which type of coach you are, you can still maintain a complete package so to speak. Assistant coaches are the key, take Virginia for example. Al Groh is a s***ty game coach, by most accounts, yet he was smart enough to sign alot of young coaches to his staff that specialized in recruiting. They were rewarded with several top 15 recruiting classes in a row, and guys like Kai Parham, Ahmad Brooks, Heath Miller, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Daryl Blackstock, etc moving onto the NFL draft as high round draft picks. Virginia maintains a program that competes for the top 25 most years.

 

Take my school, Texas Tech on the other end of the spectrum. We managed to hire a great coach, but have struggled to bring in top recruiting classes, yet maintain a top 25 program.

 

I will go even further. To me, to win with the elite in college football, you have to be running a pro-style offense where a team involves alot of people in the offense and spreads the ball around, while keeping the RB involved. Even Oklahoma a traditional RB school figured that out with Jason White etc. Yet, to run a pro style offense sufficiently, you have to have very good athletes, which will come from recruiting.

 

Basically, you have to be able to just lineup and smack the opponent in the mouth, without relying on trickery, gimmick offenses etc for the brunt of the gameplan, because eventually those styles will run out of shelf life and you will be left with your vanilla pro style offense. You can win with gimmick offenses, and its becoming more and more common place across the nation, but it doesn't work, atleast not yet, with the elite programs, or against them. You can argue TT's offense is a gimmicky type offense, and we have had our share of trouble with elite defensive talent like OU and Texas, but even then, TT normally piles up over 400 yards against those schools. Leach's system is unique, atleast until Baylor begins play next year. Yet TT isn't going to win a national title until they can recruit better defensive players, and find a DC that will run a more aggressive defense to compliment the offense. Virginia isn't going anywhere prominent until they find either a new head coach, or a brilliant OC/DC to lead the coaching aspect.

 

What I'm trying to say is, Zook obviously has the recruiting aspect down as a head coach. His job now is to find assistant coaches that can draw up a gameplan that works for the talent available, and Zook has to keep his pride in check enough to let the assistants gameplan's be put into play. John Bunting at UNC has had that problem for 3 years running, which caused losing season's with top 20 recruiting classes back to back. He finally learned his lesson last year and stopped calling the plays himself, and let Marvin Sanders take over those duties, and the defense magically jumped from 114th in the nation, to top 50 overnight. The same has been done, with hopefully the same results on offense with the Cignetti hire, and things are looking promising for UNC fans in the coming years.

 

Illinois will not have a problem recruiting wise, its a nationally known university with excellent academics, in which recruits will like to feign interest, and you play in one of the best football conferences in America. These are the steps I think the Illini have to take to be successful.

 

1. Lockdown Illinois, recruiting wise.

2. Hire a coveted DC/OC and led them lead their respective playcalling, I'm not sold on Mike Locksley as OC, as he's never actually been an OC in his career, and has focused mainly on recruiting efforts as a recruiting coordinator at 2 previous stops. Its obvious Zook is focusing most/all of his efforts on recruiting, as he has himself, and 2 other staff members who's main prominence has been as a recruiting coordinator at another school, or at Illinois. Which could pay off in the short term perception wise, but I think could cause trouble ala Virginia a few years later.

3. Use the basketball tradition to your advantage. Let some special recruits, with Weber's permission, walk onto the basketball team, and let the basketball side help recruit them. There are alot of great football recruits who are also solid basketball prospects that will have watched the Illini play on TV for years. Believe it or not, but it can be a big recruiting school, especially at a school like Illinois with your recent success. Players will walk onto the basketball team for a year or two, get tired of it, or get it out of their system, and re-focus on football in the end. Roy Williams has been a huge asset to our football program, and both coaches embrace it. Which brings me to another point, it would really help if Zook and Weber have a nice friendly relationship, atleast public persona wise. As some schools have feuding b-ball/f-ball coaches that does absolutely no good for the school, and is a lost recruiting tool.

 

Anyways, sorry for the long post, just had to get that out of my system.

[thedoctor]

Illinois has outrecruited Northwestern for years and look at where the programs are. NU is consistently a solid team, looking like they are going to be able to make a bowl game in most years. Walker finds diamonds in the rough and coaches up his players. Meanwhile, Illinois continues to do less than nothing with their 'talent'. Illinois has a long way to go and these good recruits don't scare me one bit because they have had better talent than the results they have been producing for a while now. Zook was a good hire because U of I had nothing to lose. With that said, he may or may not improve the program.

i don't think illinois has outrecruited northwestern lately. the past two years illinois has some of the worst talent i've ever seen in the league. the venturi-green-peay era northwestern teams had better talent than these last two illinois clubs.

 

and i agree with just about everything palehosefan said in regards to what illinois needs to do. they have a real opportunity with their defensive coordinator position, and it would be nice to see them go out and get someone who has a clue. locksley i will live with because of his recruiting skills, but i'm not sold on the way they run their offense.

[Rex Hudler]

This isn't technically recruiting, but since there isn't an active NCAA Football thread, I thought I would add it here.

 

In addition to losing RB Max Martin, backup QB Matt Gutierrez also left Michigan. He will transfer to Idaho State, where he can play immediately at the D l-AA school. He will have one year at Idaho State. Martin, as previously mentioned, has enrolled at Alabama.

[ZoomSlowik]

i don't think illinois has outrecruited northwestern lately. the past two years illinois has some of the worst talent i've ever seen in the league. the venturi-green-peay era northwestern teams had better talent than these last two illinois clubs.

 

and i agree with just about everything palehosefan said in regards to what illinois needs to do. they have a real opportunity with their defensive coordinator position, and it would be nice to see them go out and get someone who has a clue. locksley i will live with because of his recruiting skills, but i'm not sold on the way they run their offense.

 

Illinois definitely recruits better than Northwestern almost every year. According to Rivals Loren Howard was the only 4-star recruit we got since 2002 (including the 2006 class), and I can only remember Basanez and Brian Huffman (kicker, not even a good one) being good recruits before that under Randy Walker. Illinois had 9 4-star or better recruits from 02-05 and has 4 in the 06 class. Most of them weren't RB's either (OL Martin O'Donnell (who was actually a 5-star), WR Kelvin Hayden, WR Lonnie Hurst, and JUCO DB James McGill to name a few). The class that came it at Illinois my freshman year (2001) was pretty good too, featuring at least two 4-star level guys in Matt Sinclair and Morris Virgil, possibly more. They might not look like it on the field, but Illinois definitely gets better recruits.

 

It's pretty rare when NU brings in anyone that is more than a 3-star recruit, and many of their guys aren't even rated that highly. I hate to play the academics card, but many of the better recruits can't get into NU, and those that have the offers will usually go to a better program. They try to find lesser known guys so they don't have to compete with the big boys. NU had one really good class from Barnett's last year that turned into that 8-3 team that got blasted in the Alamo Bowl, but outside of that their highly touted recruits have been few in number. Before that you might have to go back to the Ara Parseigan (spelling?) era to find an NU team that had good recruits. They've been football doormats for almost their entire time as a program, so recruiting is definitely not one of their strong suits.

 

Illinois can get a decent recruiting class, but they're not going to be able to get an absolute top of the line class that allows them to be toe-to-toe with the big boys at Michigan and OSU. They're going to need a top-15 class or two to really move up in the world (at least under Zook), and that probably won't happen. Zook got some big time talent at Florida, but that was at Florida before people knew that he couldn't coach. He's going to have a very tough time getting instant impact recruits, because he'll have to beat out the big time programs that are winning to get them. He's actually going to have to be able to coach these guys at some point to get them any higher than about 4th place. Remember, Zook actually lost to Mississippi State with talent superior to anything he is probably going to attract to Illinois.

 

I really believe that their best chance to really establish themselves as a program is to catch lightning in a bottle with a hot younger coach on his way up to establish their program for a few years. Getting some strong assistants will help, but in the end they'll still need a real head coach to attract really good talent, and to prevent an 8-3 caliber team from turning into a 6-5 or lower team. I find it hard to believe that they'll be able to post more than back to back good seasons otherwise.

[thedoctor]

Illinois definitely recruits better than Northwestern almost every year. According to Rivals Loren Howard was the only 4-star recruit we got since 2002 (including the 2006 class), and I can only remember Basanez and Brian Huffman (kicker, not even a good one) being good recruits before that under Randy Walker. Illinois had 9 4-star or better recruits from 02-05 and has 4 in the 06 class. Most of them weren't RB's either (OL Martin O'Donnell (who was actually a 5-star), WR Kelvin Hayden, WR Lonnie Hurst, and JUCO DB James McGill to name a few). The class that came it at Illinois my freshman year (2001) was pretty good too, featuring at least two 4-star level guys in Matt Sinclair and Morris Virgil, possibly more. They might not look like it on the field, but Illinois definitely gets better recruits.

 

It's pretty rare when NU brings in anyone that is more than a 3-star recruit, and many of their guys aren't even rated that highly. I hate to play the academics card, but many of the better recruits can't get into NU, and those that have the offers will usually go to a better program. They try to find lesser known guys so they don't have to compete with the big boys. NU had one really good class from Barnett's last year that turned into that 8-3 team that got blasted in the Alamo Bowl, but outside of that their highly touted recruits have been few in number. Before that you might have to go back to the Ara Parseigan (spelling?) era to find an NU team that had good recruits. They've been football doormats for almost their entire time as a program, so recruiting is definitely not one of their strong suits.

 

Illinois can get a decent recruiting class, but they're not going to be able to get an absolute top of the line class that allows them to be toe-to-toe with the big boys at Michigan and OSU. They're going to need a top-15 class or two to really move up in the world (at least under Zook), and that probably won't happen. Zook got some big time talent at Florida, but that was at Florida before people knew that he couldn't coach. He's going to have a very tough time getting instant impact recruits, because he'll have to beat out the big time programs that are winning to get them. He's actually going to have to be able to coach these guys at some point to get them any higher than about 4th place. Remember, Zook actually lost to Mississippi State with talent superior to anything he is probably going to attract to Illinois.

 

I really believe that their best chance to really establish themselves as a program is to catch lightning in a bottle with a hot younger coach on his way up to establish their program for a few years. Getting some strong assistants will help, but in the end they'll still need a real head coach to attract really good talent, and to prevent an 8-3 caliber team from turning into a 6-5 or lower team. I find it hard to believe that they'll be able to post more than back to back good seasons otherwise.

 

well, once a class gets to the field the rankings don't make a difference to me. in a sense you've just described the fallacy of those rankings. out of the ranked players you mentioned for illinois, their supposed big-timers, the great majority of those guys either underachieved or didn't achieve at all. mcgill, for example, never played a down of football at illinois. looking back at those lists, very few of their highly-rated recruits did much.

 

this is why turner lost his job, not because his recruits didn't have high star ratings, but because they were slow, weak, not-that-talented and just not very good football players. sure, illinois may get one or two four or five star guys each year, but what is the depth of their class like? looking back at those classes, the depth was pathetic. name-after-name that never saw the field.

 

illinois may have won the star-rating battle with northwestern, but to me northwestern clearly won the recruiting battle. regardless of rankings the wildcats ended up with better players on the field and better results because of it. i would much rather have won the recruiting battle than the star battle.

[danman31]

What you just described is because NU coaches up their recruits and does find sleeper recruits like Tyrell Sutton. Illinois has better pure talent and the coaching staff needs to improve their players and does not do so.

[thedoctor]

What you just described is because NU coaches up their recruits and does find sleeper recruits like Tyrell Sutton. Illinois has better pure talent and the coaching staff needs to improve their players and does not do so.

 

i just disagree that illinois has had better pure talent than northwestern lately. when you don't have a defensive back that can crack a 4.6, that is not talent. turner was not a horrible coach per se. he brought in poor talent.