Recruiting Thread

[soxhawks]

i just disagree that illinois has had better pure talent than northwestern lately. when you don't have a defensive back that can crack a 4.6, that is not talent. turner was not a horrible coach per se. he brought in poor talent.

 

take marquice cole for example, he did not even have 1 star out of high school but the guy has 4.3 speed and was second team all conference this year, just another example of how stars usually arent all their hyped up to be

[whitesoxfan101]

take marquice cole for example, he did not even have 1 star out of high school but  the guy has 4.3 speed and was second team all conference this year, just another example of how stars usually arent all their hyped up to be

 

That guy is another example of why recruiting is really an inexact science. I saw him single handedly beat my HS's best football team in history on the state playoffs when he was a senior in HS. Half our team was on a track team that was top 10 in state, and he just made us look slow running the option, while causing havoc on our passing game as well. I could have told you he'd be a real good college player, yet he was a 1 star recruit.

[thedoctor]

i'd say inexact is the best way to describe the rating systems.

 

plus, i'd also add that the football recruiting rankings are much more inexact than the basketball ones. although football prospects get evaluated at various college summer camps, those evaluations aren't as detailed and as in-depth as people can get from going to aau basketball tournaments, or from something like the nike all-america camp.

[Palehosefan]

Now HERE's a recruit

[Chisoxfn]

Wow....that Devry is gonna have one hell of a team Watch out for one of those online clown colleges. I hear they are sleepers.

[ZoomSlowik]

i just disagree that illinois has had better pure talent than northwestern lately. when you don't have a defensive back that can crack a 4.6, that is not talent. turner was not a horrible coach per se. he brought in poor talent.

 

Guess what: NU probably only has one DB that can crack a 4.6, and that's Cole. Illinois in general has much better athletes than NU. Just since I started at Illinois, they've put Morton, Hayden, and Wilson in the NFL. All were DB's with better than average athelticism. That's not even counting all of Illinois' more talented players, that's just the one position that you decided to harp on.

 

NU rarely has guys that can actually run. The only guys that I'd call better than average athletes since the 'Cats went to the Rose Bowl ten years ago are D'Wayne Bates, Damien Anderson, Napoleon Harris, Luis Castillo, Loren Howard, Marquice Cole, Marvin Ward, Sam Simmons and Jeff Backes. They got most of those guys because they were undersized or extremely raw, and two guys of that group are linemen that aren't particularly fast. There might be one or two more underclassmen hiding on the roster, but that's about it. The real difference is that NU does something with the guys that they have. As opposed to Illinois not getting any production from higher caliber recruits, NU is turning guys like Pat Durr, Kevin Bentley, Barry Gardner, Tim McGarigle, Barry Coefield, Darnell Autry and Pat Fitzgerald into All-Big Ten level players. Even Tyrell Sutton isn't a ridiculously talented running back. His 40 time is somewhere in the mid-4.5's, he just knows how to find the crease and won't go down.

 

Recruiting rankings aren't everything, but when discussing pure athleticism and incoming talent level, it works pretty well. Not every top guy pans out, but if you look at the impact freshmen in the BCS conferences I'd say at least 8 out of 10 were top 50 recruits or higher. Guys like Reggie Bush, Vince Young, Ted Ginn, Derrick Williams, Maurice Clarett, and Adrian Peterson weren't just ranked in the top 10 because their names were picked out of a hat.

[thedoctor]

Guess what: NU probably only has one DB that can crack a 4.6, and that's Cole. Illinois in general has much better athletes than NU. Just since I started at Illinois, they've put Morton, Hayden, and Wilson in the NFL. All were DB's with better than average athelticism. That's not even counting all of Illinois' more talented players, that's just the one position that you decided to harp on.

 

NU rarely has guys that can actually run. The only guys that I'd call better than average athletes since the 'Cats went to the Rose Bowl ten years ago are D'Wayne Bates, Damien Anderson, Napoleon Harris, Luis Castillo, Loren Howard, Marquice Cole, Marvin Ward, Sam Simmons and Jeff Backes. They got most of those guys because they were undersized or extremely raw, and two guys of that group are linemen that aren't particularly fast. There might be one or two more underclassmen hiding on the roster, but that's about it. The real difference is that NU does something with the guys that they have. As opposed to Illinois not getting any production from higher caliber recruits, NU is turning guys like Pat Durr, Kevin Bentley, Barry Gardner, Tim McGarigle, Barry Coefield, Darnell Autry and Pat Fitzgerald into All-Big Ten level players. Even Tyrell Sutton isn't a ridiculously talented running back. His 40 time is somewhere in the mid-4.5's, he just knows how to find the crease and won't go down.

 

Recruiting rankings aren't everything, but when discussing pure athleticism and incoming talent level, it works pretty well. Not every top guy pans out, but if you look at the impact freshmen in the BCS conferences I'd say at least 8 out of 10 were top 50 recruits or higher. Guys like Reggie Bush, Vince Young, Ted Ginn, Derrick Williams, Maurice Clarett, and Adrian Peterson weren't just ranked in the top 10 because their names were picked out of a hat.

 

well, i didn't say the recruiting rankings didn't have some validity. i just said they were inexact. using guys like bush, young and ginn as examples as to their validity doesn't really tell me much. ray charles could have told you those guys were going to be players. besides, those are not players either illinois or northwestern are pulling in, so i'm not sure how they're relevant to this discussion.

 

illinois has clearly not had better talent than anyone the past two seasons. different coaches and different systems have yielded the same results. now if you want to just stick with the underdog theme and always think that northwestern just has players who try harder and work harder and that allows them to overcome their deficiencies, then you are entitled to that opinion. mine is different.

 

i also don't think you are giving sutton near enough credit. when you total more than 1,800 yards and 18 touchdowns as a true freshman running back in the big ten, you are ridiculously talented.

[ZoomSlowik]

well, i didn't say the recruiting rankings didn't have some validity. i just said they were inexact. using guys like bush, young and ginn as examples as to their validity doesn't really tell me much. ray charles could have told you those guys were going to be players. besides, those are not players either illinois or northwestern are pulling in, so i'm not sure how they're relevant to this discussion.

 

illinois has clearly not had better talent than anyone the past two seasons. different coaches and different systems have yielded the same results. now if you want to just stick with the underdog theme and always think that northwestern just has players who try harder and work harder and that allows them to overcome their deficiencies, then you are entitled to that opinion. mine is different.

 

i also don't think you are giving sutton near enough credit. when you total more than 1,800 yards and 18 touchdowns as a true freshman running back in the big ten, you are ridiculously talented.

 

You're missing one of my major points. There's a difference between talent and production. I'm not arguing that NU's players haven't produced better than the Illini. Clearly based on their win-loss record Illinois hasn't done much. However, that doesn't mean that Illinois doesn't have more atheltically gifted players. Just because guys at NU performed better doesn't mean that they necessarily recruited well. Good player development, training, and coaching can make up for that somewhat. However, you've been referring to athleticism, which is almost purely a factor of who you get to join the program.

 

I've watched Northwestern football extensively, and I can tell you that Illinois and Indiana are the only team in the Big Ten that we are ever even close to in the Big Ten in terms of athleticism. There's a reason that most of NU's guys were passed over by the bigger teams. There's a reason that OSU decided not to seriously recruit Tyrell Sutton (I'm not sure where you got those numbers either, he rushed for 1474 yards and 16 TD's. That's a bit of a difference). Basically, he's a smallish back that doesn't have elite speed that probably wouldn't be all that effective in a standard I-formation set. He's pretty agile, shows some toughness, and is a decent receiver. But he also has trouble holding on to the ball and struggles a bit in short yardage situations.

 

Illinois has 3 runningbacks that are more impressive athletically, they just can't seem to use them. Thomas's production would have been similar if he got as many carries as Sutton, who had about twice as many. Thomas had under 130, which is unacceptable for a guy with his talent. Bracic had over 150. Even considering that total counts sacks, that's absolutely ridiculous. The same goes for their wide receivers. None of our guys are exactly elite. Half of them can't even catch the ball with regularity. Our defenses have been almost equally inept also. The one possible difference is that NU seems to tackle a little better, but that has nothing to do with their athleticism.

 

The one area where I'll admit that NU has done a bit better is at quarterback. Basanez has been at least a competent passer throughout his career and was pretty solid this year. Before that Kustok was good. That's probably because Basanez was one of our better recruits and Kustok tranferred from Notre Dame. Other than that, Illinois has definitely been better in terms of recruiting. That difference in QB quality and the fact our coaches seem to do a better job in player development accounts for a lot. Only one of those seems likely to change in the near future with the impending arrival of Isaiah Williams.

[thedoctor]

You're missing one of my major points. There's a difference between talent and production. I'm not arguing that NU's players haven't produced better than the Illini. Clearly based on their win-loss record Illinois hasn't done much. However, that doesn't mean that Illinois doesn't have more atheltically gifted players. Just because guys at NU performed better doesn't mean that they necessarily recruited well. Good player development, training, and coaching can make up for that somewhat. However, you've been referring to athleticism, which is almost purely a factor of who you get to join the program.

 

I've watched Northwestern football extensively, and I can tell you that Illinois and Indiana are the only team in the Big Ten that we are ever even close to in the Big Ten in terms of athleticism. There's a reason that most of NU's guys were passed over by the bigger teams. There's a reason that OSU decided not to seriously recruit Tyrell Sutton (I'm not sure where you got those numbers either, he rushed for 1474 yards and 16 TD's. That's a bit of a difference). Basically, he's a smallish back that doesn't have elite speed that probably wouldn't be all that effective in a standard I-formation set. He's pretty agile, shows some toughness, and is a decent receiver. But he also has trouble holding on to the ball and struggles a bit in short yardage situations.

 

Illinois has 3 runningbacks that are more impressive athletically, they just can't seem to use them. Thomas's production would have been similar if he got as many carries as Sutton, who had about twice as many. Thomas had under 130, which is unacceptable for a guy with his talent. Bracic had over 150. Even considering that total counts sacks, that's absolutely ridiculous. The same goes for their wide receivers. None of our guys are exactly elite. Half of them can't even catch the ball with regularity. Our defenses have been almost equally inept also. The one possible difference is that NU seems to tackle a little better, but that has nothing to do with their athleticism.

 

The one area where I'll admit that NU has done a bit better is at quarterback. Basanez has been at least a competent passer throughout his career and was pretty solid this year. Before that Kustok was good. That's probably because Basanez was one of our better recruits and Kustok tranferred from Notre Dame. Other than that, Illinois has definitely been better in terms of recruiting. That difference in QB quality and the fact our coaches seem to do a better job in player development accounts for a lot. Only one of those seems likely to change in the near future with the impending arrival of Isaiah Williams.

 

well, talent and athleticism are subjective terms so there's no way to come to a definitive conclusion either way.

 

you watch more northwestern football than i do, so i respect your view of their talent. similarly, i haven't missed an illinois game in quite awhile, and i strongly feel their talent the last two seasons (that was the sampling size i initially brought up) was below anyone's.

 

i looked at some of scout.com's draft ratings for last year and this, and those seem to suggest that illinois is at a low ebb for talent. prior to the draft scout will evaluate every kid they view with draft potential.

 

this year, northwestern has 10 players deemed as draft worthy. four of those players are rated within the top 25 at their position. illinois has seven players, two of which are in the top 25 (their punter and fullback).

 

last year, northwestern had 11 players deemed draft worthy, six of whom were rated in the top-25 at their position. illinois had seven players, with two in the top-25. for the record, northwestern had three players drafted last year, and illinois had two.

 

now does that prove anything? no. what we are discussing really can't be proven since we are dealing with a subjective criteria. however, illinois's talent lately has just sucked. if i take the long view i would agree that yes, over the course of history illinois has had better talent. lately? no.

[ZoomSlowik]

well, talent and athleticism are subjective terms so there's no way to come to a definitive conclusion either way.

 

you watch more northwestern football than i do, so i respect your view of their talent. similarly, i haven't missed an illinois game in quite awhile, and i strongly feel their talent the last two seasons (that was the sampling size i initially brought up) was below anyone's.

 

i looked at some of scout.com's draft ratings for last year and this, and those seem to suggest that illinois is at a low ebb for talent. prior to the draft scout will evaluate every kid they view with draft potential.

 

this year, northwestern has 10 players deemed as draft worthy. four of those players are rated within the top 25 at their position. illinois has seven players, two of which are in the top 25 (their punter and fullback).

 

last year, northwestern had 11 players deemed draft worthy, six of whom were rated in the top-25 at their position. illinois had seven players, with two in the top-25. for the record, northwestern had three players drafted last year, and illinois had two.

 

now does that prove anything? no. what we are discussing really can't be proven since we are dealing with a subjective criteria. however, illinois's talent lately has just sucked. if i take the long view i would agree that yes, over the course of history illinois has had better talent. lately? no.

 

See, the difference with those figures is that they are evaluating players after they've already played on the college level. Several guys that NU has recruited went from being lightly recruited to being highly productive players. I doubt many would have said that Tim McGarigle or Zach Strief would be NFL draft worthy players even after their freshmen or sophmore year, but after some productive years they've increased their stock a bit. I certainly never thought that Noah Herron would actually be drafted even after his junior year. That's what I see is the major difference between the two schools right now. Illinois doesn't seem to turn even some 4-star level talent into productive college players, while NU has these guys playing near their peaks and producing well.

 

Maybe NU's coaches just have a better eye for talent and can find lesser known guys that can produce. I suppose that is possible, but I tend to think that they get the best players they can and try to coach them from there. This especially seems true since we switched to the spread offense, which seems to let us get the most from some marginally talented receivers and runningbacks. I tend to lean toward the latter because very few of the guys they get come in and play well as freshmen. Sutton is the only guy I can think of that contributed as a solid starter in his true freshmen year (Loren Howard is borderline, but he was one of our better recruits anyways). Most of our guys don't stand out until their 3rd year. That suggests that they got a lot better as time went on.

 

Obviously NU's players have been able to produce when they get on the field, but I find it really hard to believe that if you compared pure atheltic ability (not production or overall football talent) from the two schools that NU would be stronger. We've had a few very good athletes, but few since Walker took over control of the recruiting (happily it seems like we've got some pretty fast guys coming in the next class). I think that in recent years we've just had pretty good coaches in the area of player development and training. I can see your position based on the results on the field, but I'd imagine that if you looked at Illinois' roster you'd find a few solid athletes that just can't do much on the field. I'll admit that I don't know their whole roster as well as I did when I was at school, but I know that they definitely have some impressive RB's and WR's.

[thedoctor]

Maybe NU's coaches just have a better eye for talent and can find lesser known guys that can produce.

 

this is a key point. the top programs in the country are going to corner the market on the four and five star kids most seasons. really good recruiters are finding the kids who may have slipped under the radar. illinois did not do that. the last unheralded recruit they had who panned out was eugene wilson.

 

i also have to give walker credit for mining his home state well. northwestern has done incredibly well in ohio (ndukwe, sutton, backes, philmore) while illinois has had a meh presence there prior to last year. i would say in most year's the 20th best player in ohio is better than the 20th best player in illinois.

[Palehosefan]

#1 QB Mitch Mustain re-committed to Arkansas today. I still don't agree with him being a top 5 QB in the class, much less the #1, but Arkansas still got themselves a good one.

 

Arkansas almost lost Mustain, even after hiring his high school coach as OC. Go from high school coach to OC at an SEC school, quite a jump, I wonder why...

Edited January 17, 2006 by Palehosefan

[Rex Hudler]

#1 QB Mitch Mustain re-committed to Arkansas today. I still don't agree with him being a top 5 QB in the class, much less the #1, but Arkansas still got themselves a good one.

 

Arkansas almost lost Mustain, even after hiring his high school coach as OC. Go from high school coach to OC at an SEC school, quite a jump, I wonder why...

 

Somewhat of a chain reaction... Apparently Notre Dame made it clear yesterday that they were not going to offer Mustain a scholarship, honoring the word Weis gave the other two QB's that two were all they were bringing in this year.

 

Also, Alabama gets a commit from QB Greg McElroy today, who had previously committed to Texas Tech.

[Palehosefan]

Also, Alabama gets a commit from QB Greg McElroy today, who had previously committed to Texas Tech.

 

Good for Bama and McElroy, this has been brewing for a while, he's just been waiting for an offer. He's a heck of a QB, but Tech already had a top 15 QB commit, and Bama really needed a good QB recruit. I think it will work out well for all involved. How about these senior numbers for him?

 

"As a senior, he had 450 attempts with 321 completions for 4,600 yards passing, 56 touchdowns, nine interceptions, 700 yards rushing and 12 rushing touchdowns. McElroy was named first team all-state and 5A offensive player of the year after leading his squad to the state title. Carroll has now won three of the last four 5A state titles. "

 

Thats insane, and Carroll is one of the best programs in the nation.

 

Also, good for Weiss to keep his word, I'm liking him more and more every day.

[Rex Hudler]

Palehose, any insight to a couple of top offensive lineman that Michigan is in on? The two I am referring to are Stephen Schilling and Sam Young.

 

Schilling is from CA and and rivals has Cal, Michigan, USC and Washington as his final four. Young is from FL and his final choices are Michigan, Notre Dame, Penn State and USC.

 

It would be nice to get one of those two and awesome to land both, although I figure that has to be a longshot.

 

Another offensive lineman Andre Smith from down here is still mum about where he is going. There are lots of rumors that he is headed to Alabama, but he still maintains that nothing has been decided. I think the rumors at this point are more wishful thinking, but Alabama could still happen.

[Palehosefan]

Sam Young cancelled both his Michigan and Penn State visits, and will decide between USC and Notre Dame, with ND as the likely frontrunner. Although I've heard coach Carr has one final in-home visit to change his mind.

 

Steve Schilling is pretty much down to USC and Michigan. If he decides to take his USC visit this weekend, then I would have to think they will be the frontrunners. Coach Carr had an in-home tonight to try to lock him up without a USC visit.

 

As for Andre Smith, he enjoyed his visit to Bama this past weekend, and Alabama should be there for him until the end. But LSU gets a visit this weekend to try and sway him. USC, LSU, and Bama should be battling for him until signing day.

[Rex Hudler]

Sam Young cancelled both his Michigan and Penn State visits, and will decide between USC and Notre Dame, with ND as the likely frontrunner. Although I've heard coach Carr has one final in-home visit to change his mind.

 

Steve Schilling is pretty much down to USC and Michigan. If he decides to take his USC visit this weekend, then I would have to think they will be the frontrunners. Coach Carr had an in-home tonight to try to lock him up without a USC visit.

 

As for Andre Smith, he enjoyed his visit to Bama this past weekend, and Alabama should be there for him until the end. But LSU gets a visit this weekend to try and sway him. USC, LSU, and Bama should be battling for him until signing day.

 

I found this on Smith a few minutes ago... Doesn't give much new info, but says he visited Miami, not Alabama this weekend. I think there may have been a last minute change??

 

Andre Smith - Recruiting News

[Palehosefan]

That article was from December 20th, when he visited Miami on the 16th. I haven't found anything new on him about the Bama visit. If I see something I will try to give you a heads up on here.

[RockRaines]

Illinois is not going to sniff another big ten title after this year for awhile. Bruce Weber cant recruit and has had his success with players that were there before him. He doesnt even have a class on the top 25 incoming while OSU, MSU, and Wisco do.

 

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=477059&sid=910

 

here is the updated rankings.

[whitesoxfan101]

NIU received a verbal from QB Billy Lowe of Lakeland, Florida. This is a big deal on 2 counts, because he not only helps continue the gradual build of a Florida pipeline NIU is trying to get, but he is also REALLY good. His team has went 30-0 the last 2 years, and won the national championship last year. Plus, NIU REALLY needed another QB.

 

http://flavarsity.rivals.com/viewprospect....y=41837&sport=1

[Palehosefan]

Illinois also only brought in two commitments, its very tough to make the list with only two commitments, Notre Dame was the only one that made the list with only two commitments. Illinois is bringing in the #5 center, and a solid PF, with #1 SG Eric Gordon coming in 2007, with 4 star Bill Cole, and a 3 star center. But I have to admit, I've never seen a school recruit such skinny players, its crazy. The Illini are also running neck and neck with UNC for Derrick Rose, the number 1 PG in the 07 class.

[whitesoxfan101]

Illinois is not going to sniff another big ten title after this year for awhile.  Bruce Weber cant recruit and has had his success with players that were there before him.  He doesnt even have a class on the top 25 incoming while OSU, MSU, and Wisco do. 

 

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=477059&sid=910

 

here is the updated rankings.

 

Umm Carlwell is a top 40 player in America, and...well Semrau people will find out about. And next year, Illinois will have a top 5 class in the nation.

 

But if you want to be hopeful and say Illinois is screwed, good luck!! Next year might not be great, but after that look out.

Edited January 18, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[thedoctor]

Illinois is not going to sniff another big ten title after this year for awhile.  Bruce Weber cant recruit and has had his success with players that were there before him.  He doesnt even have a class on the top 25 incoming while OSU, MSU, and Wisco do. 

 

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=477059&sid=910

 

here is the updated rankings.

 

the class is thin. there is another scholarship out there that could go to patrick beverley, ramar smith or deonte vaughn. either of those three guys would bump the class up.

 

expect the 2007 class to be among the nation's best. as it stands, it is very easily a top-10 class and the addition of rose would make it top-5 or better.

 

illinois will be fine. also nice to see one of weber's first recruits (shaun pruitt) stepping up and having a huge game against the big ten's best big man last night.

[WHarris1]

Illinois is not going to sniff another big ten title after this year for awhile.  Bruce Weber cant recruit

Keep dreaming. The 2007 class is gonna be ridiculous.

[RockRaines]

Keep dreaming.  The 2007 class is gonna be ridiculous.

Gonna huh?

 

They have nobody for next year, and they wont in the future. The guy simply cant recruit.