Recruiting Thread

[Soxbadger]

If you are addressing me, please take the time out of your day to type,

 

"Soxbadger"

 

"Badger"

 

"Stupid Wisconsin fan"

 

I atleast take the time to address my arguments to the people they are intended to, it would be common courtesy if you could do the same.

 

Also if you are going to start attacking people's grammar and intellect, I would say you are treading on some very thin ice.

[whitesoxfan101]

I do not believe that im the one getting pissed, I was simply correcting your spelling.  I have tried to keep this as friendly as possible as I do not care much about the subject in all honesty. 

 

So you name some players that are contributing, ok.  That didnt answer the question, he has had 3 mediocre classes so far correct?  If his next class is highly touted I will change my mind, but up to this point, he hasnt brought in one worth talking about.

 

That makes no sense!! That's like saying Adam Morrison doens't count as a good recruit. Sure, he leads the nation in scoring, but he was only a 3 star!! Recruiting stars only matter until you show up on campus, then it's all about if you can play. Wisconsin basketball has never recruited 5 stars all that well, and they seem to do pretty well. Bruce seems to be trying to mix in star recruits and role players, and yet he can't recruit because when a player comes in and contributes, he didn't have enough stars next to his name in HS to be legit.

[RockRaines]

Perhaps that is why no one can really take seriously all this talk of how Illinois is this great sports powerhouse.

 

I mean Ive read where people have said that Illinois sports program is better over all than Wisconsins.

 

 

I hope that was never said. As far as the major sports overall, I would think Illinois wouldnt be in the top three in the big ten.

[whitesoxfan101]

If you are addressing me, please take the time out of your day to type,

 

"Soxbadger"

 

"Badger"

 

"Stupid Wisconsin fan"

 

I atleast take the time to address my arguments to the people they are intended to, it would be common courtesy if you could do the same.

 

Also if you are going to start attacking people's grammar and intellect, I would say you are treading on some very thin ice.

 

I didn't make any specific addresses because I have 2 people attacking me for not letting bad arguments reign. I'm also not sure where I attacked grammar or intellect, but I do apologize for not paying attention to spelling errors and grammar on a message board, I'll make sure to from now on.

[whitesoxfan101]

I hope that was never said.  As far as the major sports overall, I would think Illinois wouldnt be in the top three in the big ten.

 

Overall? Of course it's not, not even close. I'm just baffled at the attacks people put on the basketball program, and how it's turned into "Illinois is an embarassment, a bad school, has bad athletics, I can't be proud of it".

[RockRaines]

That makes no sense!! That's like saying Adam Morrison doens't count as a good recruit.  Sure, he leads the nation in scoring, but he was only a 3 star!!  Recruiting stars only matter until you show up on campus, then it's all about if you can play.  Wisconsin basketball has never recruited 5 stars all that well, and they seem to do pretty well.  Bruce seems to be trying to mix in star recruits and role players, and yet he can't recruit because when a player comes in and contributes, he didn't have enough stars next to his name in HS to be legit.

Ok, I think you have too many emotions riding in this argument being as this must be the school you currently attend, so I will just drop it. It would be impossible to keep debating this when there is so much bias. I think you are missing my point and I am missing yours apparently, so we can just call it that.

[whitesoxfan101]

Ok, I think you have too many emotions riding in this argument being as this must be the school you currently attend, so I will just drop it. It would be impossible to keep debating this when there is so much bias.  I think you are missing my point and I am missing yours apparently, so we can just call it that.

 

My point is, what do you consider to be the basis of recruiting? Is it how highly players are ranked out of HS, or how they do in college? Because you can't truly evaluate a person's recruiting skills until you see how his recruits actually do, and with Bruce, we still don't know. His record at Illinois is pretty good though, and I wish people would give him a chance to suck before saying he can't recruit and can only get skinny white kids.

[RockRaines]

Overall? Of course it's not, not even close.  I'm just baffled at the attacks people put on the basketball program, and how it's turned into "Illinois is an embarassment, a bad school, has bad athletics, I can't be proud of it".

I never said that. Im from chicago, I know its a good school, has had good basketball and sometimes good football all my life. The basketball program has brought positive attention to the state of illinois, and to the chicago area. Bruce Weber is a great coach and a good guy. All i said is that his recruiting skills arent elite, and I dont see them being as good in the future considering all the talent that other big then schools are getting lately.

[Soxbadger]

Whitesoxfan,

 

How am I making a bad argument?

 

In fact I will make it easy and break it down for you into simple categories an Illinois fan can understand.

 

Football Arguments

 

1. Recruiting sites are not that great.

2. Zook is a good recruiter a bad coach

 

Basketball Arguments

 

1. Recruitings sites are not that great.

2. 2007 is along way out to be putting a lot of hope in.

3. Oral commitment is not 100% gauranteed.

4. Weber has a lot to prove as a coach as 1 good year does not make a program.

 

Now if you can find out how that is "Circular" or a bad argument go ahead.

 

Im fair, I slam Alvarez, I slam Wisconsin players, I slam those who deserve it. I think Alvarez is one of the worst coaches in NCAA, but a good recruiter. Does that make me a rabid hater of Wisconsin?

 

No it just means that Im not such a homer I cant be fair.

 

You want to get a nonbiased fan, anyone thats not from U of I, to say my argument is nonsense, go ahead and I will stop.

[WHarris1]

1 good run does not make a program, and 1 good coaching year does not mean you are the next Dean Smith.

Right but an 80-11 record sure is a damn good start.

 

Illini fans keep harping about how the 2007 class will be the messiah and then we will get to see the greatness of Illinois.

No one is harping on the 2007 class being the messiah. It is just used when someone says Bruce can't recruit.

 

I have said that the 2007 class wont matter for years.

 

You want to argue that point, fine.

No one will argue that.

 

If not for an injury to Dee Brown Illinois was going to be a bottom dweller in the Big 10 this year.

If if if. If Deron Williams didn't have a child and wife he wouldn't need the money from the NBA so he could have stayed. Then Illinois would be on top of the B10. That's a weak point.

[RockRaines]

My point is, what do you consider to be the basis of recruiting?  Is it how highly players are ranked out of HS, or how they do in college?  Because you can't truly evaluate a person's recruiting skills until you see how his recruits actually do, and with Bruce, we still don't know.  His record at Illinois is pretty good though, and I wish people would give him a chance to suck before saying he can't recruit and can only get skinny white kids.

Its pretty clear I was basing it on recruiting hype coming out of high school. I linked the rivals page where it gives class rankings, that is all. Nobody truly knows what the players will become, and the coach has alot to do with that. Bill Self constantly gets blue chip players, and still doesnt have the success that better coaches have with less talent. Of course, the teams I was referencing in the big ten to be getting great talent, have good coaches, MSU, Wisco, OSU.

[whitesoxfan101]

I never said that.  Im from chicago, I know its a good school, has had good basketball and sometimes good football all my life.  The basketball program has brought positive attention to the state of illinois, and to the chicago area.  Bruce Weber is a great coach and a good guy.  All i said is that his recruiting skills arent elite, and I dont see them being as good in the future considering all the talent that other big then schools are getting lately.

 

I know, sorry....that was more BadgerSox. I am trying to have 2 debates at once, and not doing well at it. I have little emotion about this in general, as results speak for itself. I am just confused here, will Bruce's class of 2007 not matter for a few years? Of course it won't, but at the same time, it shows he can get the big time recruits to come to Illinois. Now, plenty of big time recruits have busted, but I would think the class of 2007 proves he can at least GET big players.

[RockRaines]

I know, sorry....that was more BadgerSox.  I am trying to have 2 debates at once, and not doing well at it.  I have little emotion about this in general, as results speak for itself.  I am just confused here, will Bruce's class of 2007 not matter for a few years? Of course it won't, but at the same time, it shows he can get the big time recruits to come to Illinois.  Now, plenty of big time recruits have busted, but I would think the class of 2007 proves he can at least GET big players.

I will agree on that, if that is still the case come this time next year. 2007 is a long way away. This time last year, the class rankings were ALOT different.

[whitesoxfan101]

Whitesoxfan,

 

How am I making a bad argument?

 

In fact I will make it easy and break it down for you into simple categories an Illinois fan can understand.

 

Football Arguments

 

1. Recruiting sites are not that great.

2. Zook is a good recruiter a bad coach

 

Basketball Arguments

 

1. Recruitings sites are not that great.

2. 2007 is along way out to be putting a lot of hope in.

3. Oral commitment is not 100% gauranteed.

4. Weber has a lot to prove as a coach as 1 good year does not make a program.

 

Now if you can find out how that is "Circular" or a bad argument go ahead.

 

Im fair, I slam Alvarez, I slam Wisconsin players, I slam those who deserve it. I think Alvarez is one of the worst coaches in NCAA, but a good recruiter. Does that make me a rabid hater of Wisconsin?

 

No it just means that Im not such a homer I cant be fair.

 

You want to get a nonbiased fan, anyone thats not from U of I, to say my argument is nonsense, go ahead and I will stop.

 

If you want an outline of my opinions on Illinois, here it is:

 

Zook has a top 25 class coming in to a school that has SUCKED ASS for 4 years, so I think he can recruit big names. Beyond that, I don't know. In fact, I think he probably is a bad game coach, but at least he is getting talent to Champaign, and that's a start.

 

Bruce's in game coaching has been proven to be exceptional, although nobody is arguing that. Bruce didn't recruit very well in terms of stars his first 2 classes, but seems to have gotten some players in Pruitt, Jamar, and even Chester (and CJ is redshirting). The class of 2006 has a top 40 player in Carlwell, and Semrau was top 30 until he fell to a 3 star mainly because he was played at the 3 in AAU ball even though he's a true 4. The class of 2007 is looking damn good.

 

Could Bruce turn out to fail eventually? Possibly, but I doubt it. So I think the football program is still in deep poop, and the basketball program is in the best shape it has been in in AGES. Not sure how that is being a blind homer, but go ahead and rip those thoughts anyways. And for the record, as of now, Wisconsin probably has the best basketball/football program combo in the league, although that may change with "The Thad 5" arriving in Columbus next year.

[whitesoxfan101]

I will agree on that, if that is still the case come this time next year.  2007 is a long way away.  This time last year, the class rankings were ALOT different.

 

True, but Eric Gordon isn't going anywhere in rankings, he's a legit blue chipper. As for Tisdale and Cole, their stocks are both rising as of now because of their potential, but of course that could change in a hurry.

Edited January 18, 2006 by whitesoxfan101

[RockRaines]

Wisconsin probably has the best basketball/football program combo in the league, although that may change with "The Thad 5" arriving in Columbus next year.

And in 2007 OSU is mentioned in just about every top 25 player's portfolio. Thad Matta is a great coach. But then again, im biased.

[whitesoxfan101]

And in 2007 OSU is mentioned in just about every top 25 player's portfolio.  Thad Matta is a great coach.  But then again, im biased.

 

Yeah, Thad is assembling quite the all star team of talent in Columbus. I doubt Oden is there more than a year or two, but everybody else is going to cause havoc in the league for the next several years. And he seems to be in the recruiting game long term, which is pretty scary. But looking at 2007, the Illini are in a lot of portfolios too. It seems Bruce has broken through a bit in the recruiting game, although obviously not at the level tOSU is at right now.

[RockRaines]

Yeah, Thad is assembling quite the all star team of talent in Columbus.  I doubt Oden is there more than a year or two, but everybody else is going to cause havoc in the league for the next several years.  And he seems to be in the recruiting game long term, which is pretty scary.  But looking at 2007, the Illini are in a lot of portfolios too.  It seems Bruce has broken through a bit in the recruiting game, although obviously not at the level tOSU is at right now.

As I said it s along ways away. Oden is there one year at the most. He will make the jump. The only thing stopping him is the age limit. The big ten is really getting back to the status of a top conference once again. If only they can do some damage in the ACC Big ten face off one of these years....

[whitesoxfan101]

The ACC/Big Ten thing will never be easy to win, because the bottom of the Big 10 is SO AMAZINGLY BAD. Hence I expect a lot of 6-5 losses in that thing the next few years.

[whitesoxfan99]

If you want an outline of my opinions on Illinois, here it is:

 

Zook has a top 25 class coming in to a school that has SUCKED ASS for 4 years, so I think he can recruit big names.  Beyond that, I don't know.  In fact, I think he probably is a bad game coach, but at least he is getting talent to Champaign, and that's a start.

 

Bruce's in game coaching has been proven to be exceptional, although nobody is arguing that.  Bruce didn't recruit very well in terms of stars his first 2 classes, but seems to have gotten some players in Pruitt, Jamar, and even Chester (and CJ is redshirting).  The class of 2006 has a top 40 player in Carlwell, and Semrau was top 30 until he fell to a 3 star mainly because he was played at the 3 in AAU ball even though he's a true 4.  The class of 2007 is looking damn good.

 

Could Bruce turn out to fail eventually? Possibly, but I doubt it.  So I think the football program is still in deep poop, and the basketball program is in the best shape it has been in in AGES.  Not sure how that is being a blind homer, but go ahead and rip those thoughts anyways.  And for the record, as of now, Wisconsin probably has the best basketball/football program combo in the league, although that may change with "The Thad 5" arriving in Columbus next year.

 

Bruce's first class consisted of a consensus top 100 player in Pruitt and Brock who made a couple top 100 lists late in his senior year. He did fine as far as "stars" go that year. His recruiting sucked for the 05 class and there is no denying that. However, I do like the players he ended up with. Jamar is clearly going to be a player, Frazier looks like he will be a solid role player at the PG position and if he ever becomes a good shooter he will be very good IMO. CJ if nothing else will rebound the basketball but who knows how he will end up. '06 started out good with Carlwell and Semrau. Carlwell has arguably the most potential of any center in that class not named Greg Oden. Semrau will be a very good player for Illinois because he likely will be a more athletic Jack Ingram at worst. Plus, we got a transfer from Dayton Trent Meacham who is walking on and will likely be a solid player for us. Meacham can definitely shoot the basketball and I wish he was eligible this year.

 

The '07 class is looking very good. Eric Gordon is about as good of a recruit as there is. He is a legit top 5 player who shoots the ball well, has great athleticism, and can play the PG a little bit. Bill Cole is a highly skilled big man who some say offensively has the ability to even play the SF position. Needs to bulk up a little bit but most high school big men do. Mike Tisdale has a world of potential. A legit 7 footer with a lot of skill. Those guys aren't exactly easy to find. Out of the '07 recruits the most "bust" potential as he is extremely skinny, but he is probably more likely to be playing for pay someday (not necessarily in the NBA).

 

Has Weber's recruiting been great? No Is Weber starting to bring in the type of recruits we need to maintain a very high level of success? Yes

 

He needs to get a good PG in the 07 class whether it be Rose or one of the other PGs in that class who really like Illinois. Add either a combo guard or wing for either the '06 or '07 classes (Leon Freeman, Dar Tucker, etc.) and we are in very good shape.

[WHarris1]

Has Weber's recruiting been great? No  Is Weber starting to bring in the type of recruits we need to maintain a very high level of success? Yes

Which is really what this entire 2 page long-winded argument has stemmed from.

 

All any Illini fan said was that Bruce's recruiting has been improving and he looks to have a great 07 class. But somehow that got twisted and turned into a long clusterf***.

[Chisoxrd5]

Which is really what this entire 2 page long-winded argument has stemmed from.

 

All any Illini fan said was that Bruce's recruiting has been improving and he looks to have a great 07 class.  But somehow that got twisted and turned into a long clusterf***.

 

Stop being such a homer

[WHarris1]

Stop being such a homer 

I just can't help it. I mean s***...sticking up for an 80-11 coach?!?!? I am just so blinded by my O&B glasses.

[Soxbadger]

I dont think Weber is a bad recruiter.

 

I think Weber got a bad rap because he took over for "golden boy" Self, and the media made Weber out to be a bad recruiter.

 

Most teams do not pull great recruits when they lose their coach to a better program so expecting a lot out of 2005 and 2006 recruits was just silly.

 

The Illinois basketball program is probably going to be better off because Weber can win with or without 5 star recruits.

 

Honestly I was never that enamored with Self, just seemed the grass is always greener when he left.

[RockRaines]

Honestly I was never that enamored with Self, just seemed the grass is always greener when he left.

s***ty coach IMO, but a good recruiter of talent. Still gets top notch players, and gets beat by better coaches.