Does your Church make you feel like this?

[AnthraxFan93]

So if pedophiles come from anywhere, and you provided zero proof that priests are anymore pedophiles than anyone else, why would you use that example?  Doesn't logic dictate some measure of factual basis when it makes comparison, don't you have to have some research that said the priests are at least more likely to be peds than anyone else?  Otherwise why say that at all?  Where is the logic in running off half cocked with no proof at all of anything???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have faith they are.. so it must be true then right?

 

Why bring up yet another blackmark on this "cult"? HMM Have no idea..

 

Question.. What is the difference between a religion and a cult?

[Texsox]

Question.. What is the difference between a religion and a cult?

 

 

Why is that even important? Those are labels that people apply. It is the actions that determines if something is good or evil.

[Texsox]

I have faith they are.. so it must be true then right?

 

Why bring up yet another blackmark on this "cult"? HMM Have no idea..

 

Question.. What is the difference between a religion and a cult?

 

It isn't a blackmark on the group, it is a blackmark on that individual.

[AnthraxFan93]

Why is that even important? Those are labels that people apply. It is the actions that determines if something is good or evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is important, to understand everything as a whole..

 

The only difference is numbers.. that is it.. Both are one in the same..

 

 

Man we are jumping all over the place on this..

 

and you are right on the last statement..

 

Socrates: He/She who knows right will do right...

 

Guess what religion he was?

[AnthraxFan93]

It isn't a blackmark on the group, it is a blackmark on that individual.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't even begin to comprehend how you came up with that. So your telling me that if you go into a resturant and have a bad server, you blaim it on them and not the place.. And then go back to that Resturtant?

[kapkomet]

I need some crack. Then maybe I'd get it.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

It isn't a stretch at all for me, I have faith. It would be a stretch for you, you have faith in those that have misled you, and have written in books at your home, that there is no God. That is your faith.

 

You mock faith, yet we use faith every day. Drive down the road and you have faith that an oncoming car will not cross the median. Get on a roller coaster at Six Flags involves faith in the person who assembled and maintained the ride.

 

To believe someone loves you, you have to have faith that what they say is the truth and their actions are real, not an act. That's faith.

 

Thank you for trying to brainwash me into the cult of disbelievers, but I will pass and be happier for it. Your Cult is without a moral compass. Your cult has no basis. Enjoy your cult, raise your kids in your cult, end your life in your cult. Every step of the way, believers like me will be praying for your salvation.

 

 

And my only problem throughout these discussions has been the blatant disrespect shown towards others' beliefs. I'm all for others having different beliefs, but please do me the courtesy of not disrespcting mine by using profane language and ignorant assumptions when discussing (or constantly critisizing, as has been the case) the organization that represents my faith. The "priests are pedophiles" talk is just sad...

 

If you think your way of thinking is better, good for you. It just annoys me to be asked why I believe what I believe just because the other person doesn't and thinks their way of thinking is far superior. I don't question others' beliefs out of respect and feel that I deserve the same. I just didn't think that mutual respect would be such a foreign concept on here...

[Texsox]

I can't even begin to comprehend how you came up with that. So your telling me that if you go into a resturant and have a bad server, you blaim it on them and not the place.. And then go back to that Resturtant?

 

Yes. If the food is good, but the service is poor, of course I would go back. Are you telling me because one Doctor committed murder, you will never go to a Doctor and would argue against medical care? Will you not send your kids to school because somewhere a teacher molested a child?

[AnthraxFan93]

Yes. If the food is good, but the service is poor, of course I would go back. Are you telling me because one Doctor committed murder, you will never go to a Doctor and would argue against medical care? Will you not send your kids to school because somewhere a teacher molested a child?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay.. one does it, okay its a bad mark on him.. 2 do it.. makes you wonder.. When more and more came out.. Then you have to take a look at the system. And makes you wonder how much of this is still going on..And if things are still going on.. And I feel it still is, there was a huge (republican type) cover up.

[Texsox]

Okay.. one does it, okay its a bad mark on him.. 2 do it.. makes you wonder.. When more and more came out.. Then you have to take a look at the system. And makes you wonder how much of this is still going on..And if things are still going on.. And I feel it still is, there was a huge (republican type) cover up.

Then don't go to Doctor's, lawyers, teachers, or any other profession. They all have people who have committed crimes equally horrific.

[Wong & Owens]

Then don't go to Doctor's, lawyers, teachers, or any other profession. They all have people who have committed crimes equally horrific.

 

Isn't this the basis for the T.V. show "Kung Fu?"

[kevin57]

I find it personally deeply offensive to go to the "all priests are pedophiles" argument on a thread that started about churches, then devolved into whether there is a God, and who knows where else this discussion will go.

 

If someone were to post that all Blacks, or even most Blacks are this, that, or the other thing, they would likely get banned. When was the last time anyone saw a movie about how evil Imans are inciting all Muslims to kill Christians? None, right? Well, on TV and movies, it is commonplace to see priests slandered FAR worse than any other clergy.

 

As to the "Bible is fiction" argument, what do you say to this?

 

--It is a FACT that nearly every close follower of Jesus was martyred for their belief in Jesus. Now, it is one thing to make something up, but how many people would be willing to die for their lie? Only deep conviction and deep love for this person Jesus and his truth would give anyone to courage to do that.

[southsider2k5]

I have faith they are.. so it must be true then right?

 

Why bring up yet another blackmark on this "cult"? HMM Have no idea..

 

Question.. What is the difference between a religion and a cult?

 

I didn't think you would have an answer, but I do. You aren't applying any logic at all. You are just spoiling for a fight, and when you peel away your firey rhetoric and your button pushing terms, you just got exposed for exactly what you were trying to do. You were never applying any logic anywhere, and the 'methodology' you employed was nothing more than Trolling 201. Congrats you have been exposed as a fraud.

 

[/the emperor has no clothes.]

[sox4lifeinPA]

Holy s***....

 

 

20 pages and this is my FIRST post. I guess there's solace in the fact that the only 3 of the 20 pages were worth reading.

 

to Wong: Thank you for not being a douche after page 5.

 

to Tex: Thank you for making me laugh throughout 20 horrific pages

 

to Yasny: I give you props dude. I wouldn't have done half as well as you did. I agree with 100% of what you said.

 

to MrEye: I like you much much more than Anthraxdouche

 

to Anthraxdouche: It's not that I don't like your politics. It's not about that. I hate Wong's politics, but most of the time he's respectful (aside from the assinine missionary remarks). You turned this whole thread into a piece of wet hair in the drain; Useless and a stain on Soxtalk.

 

to PA: thanks for being you.

 

 

To answer the question originally intended in this thread. I think there's an epidemic in the church today. I've been to nearly 50 churches in the last 3 years and there's definitely some issues circulating. When I say church, my experience is 100% protestant ranging from Church of Christ to Baptist to C&MA to Free Church to Episcople.

 

There's a southern church and a northeast church, as far as my experience goes. The south has its problems which range from uber-legalism to ambiguity at megachurches. The NE suffers from a hostile environment, a lack of honesty and openness, and what I call the "sunday morning smile" problem.

 

That being said, it's easy to understand why church membership is down. Most churches that DO have sizeable membership cater their "worship" experience to middle aged women. There's very little about church that empowers men to act like men. There's a serious lack of leadership building and youth groups fail to show girls what their roles are as women and boys what their roles are as men. (and I dont mean the man works and the woman is at home and pregnant in the kitchen) I mean the essence of what it means to be a woman and what it means to be a man. (strength and beauty).

 

anyway, that's my quick two cents.

[Wong & Owens]

--It is a FACT that nearly every close follower of Jesus was martyred for their belief in Jesus.  Now, it is one thing to make something up, but how many people would be willing to die for their lie?  Only deep conviction and deep love for this person Jesus and his truth would give anyone to courage to do that.

 

I would argue that. That is far from an indisputable fact. Many scholars don't even agree on the IDENTITY of many of Jesus's followers, and some scholars dispute the existence of Jesus himself. I personally haven't decided on that. In any case, close followers of any religion have been known to die for their beliefs, and their deep love of anything doesn't mean it's not misguided. I'm sure the Heaven's Gate folks had a deep love of that Applewhite? guy, but I don't think it proves that the Heaven's Gate belief system has any more merit than anything else.

 

To Alex -- what was so asinine about my comments on missionaries?

[kevin57]

Many scholars don't even agree on the IDENTITY of many of Jesus's followers, and some scholars dispute the existence of Jesus himself.  I personally haven't decided on that.  In any case, close followers of any religion have been known to die for their beliefs, and their deep love of anything doesn't mean it's not misguided.  I'm sure the Heaven's Gate folks had a deep love of that Applewhite? guy, but I don't think it proves that the Heaven's Gate belief system has any more merit than anything else.

 

From "deconstructionists" there's dispute about Jesus' existence and his followers, but deconstructionists get their Ph.D's from pushing these arguments. Archeologists have verified, or at least given credence, to a whole lot of things that the demythologizers thought they debunked a century ago.

 

The truth is that there is as much historical evidence that Jesus existed as there is that Augustus Caesar existed. Using modern criteria of "evidence," the existence of either one could be placed in doubt.

 

My argument about people dying for Jesus was meant to refute the single argument that the faith is a fabrication (a point that has been raised from time-to-time in this thread). To the point that people can be misguided in their faith, well, that's another topic, but Christianity was not concocted as some spiritual snake-oil formula.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I would argue that.  That is far from an indisputable fact.  Many scholars don't even agree on the IDENTITY of many of Jesus's followers, and some scholars dispute the existence of Jesus himself.  I personally haven't decided on that.  In any case, close followers of any religion have been known to die for their beliefs, and their deep love of anything doesn't mean it's not misguided.  I'm sure the Heaven's Gate folks had a deep love of that Applewhite? guy, but I don't think it proves that the Heaven's Gate belief system has any more merit than anything else.

 

To Alex -- what was so asinine about my comments on missionaries?

 

You're right about the martyr issue, but to say there aren't ANY facts in the bible is just stupid. There are archeaological landmarks that verify the dates of things written and scientific terms such as weight and value of money that are indisputable as you put it.

 

anyway, we can all agree that much of what is written is kosher; we can argue about anything if you want.

 

Wong: It's so after the fact that it's almost not worth it, but your comments were just way out there. You are definitely right about Africa, but do you really think South America is uneducated? I've personally been to Central Mexico twice for short term mission trips and one of my pastors was a missionary in Ecuador for 30 years. I understand your argument, but I just don't think it correctly applies in this case. From my experience and what I've personally seen in latin america, these people aren't looking for whatever they can get for themselves. I don't think appeasing the white man by "believing" what they want just to get free food, shelter, money is their aim. I don't deny that that's a possibility, but I think it's a possibility for ANY race in any part of the world.

 

haha, maybe it's just that Anthraxdouche made you look like a saint in comparison.

[Texsox]

Most churches that DO have sizeable membership cater their "worship" experience to middle aged women. There's very little about church that empowers men to act like men. There's a serious lack of leadership building and youth groups fail to show girls what their roles are as women and boys what their roles are as men.

 

PA, I was just talking to friends of mine tonight about that very issue. As Scout leaders, we always offer a worship service on Sundays during our campouts. For many of the young men, and now ladies, in our units, this may be their only contact with religion. I pointed out that there are far more ladies in attendance at service than men, and perhaps our greatest gift we can give these kids is showing them strong male Christian role models.

 

I also enjoy showing them female role models they may not normally see. Our Venturing Crew advisor is older than me, cute as can be, petite, and can backpack, climb, cave, and camp with the best of the men. Beauty, brains, brawn, and a determined spirit.

[sox4lifeinPA]

PA, I was just talking to friends of mine tonight about that very issue. As Scout leaders, we always offer a worship service on Sundays during our campouts. For many of the young men, and now ladies, in our units, this may be their only contact with religion. I pointed out that there are far more ladies in attendance at service than men, and perhaps our greatest gift we can give these kids is showing them strong male Christian role models.

 

I also enjoy showing them female role models they may not normally see. Our Venturing Crew advisor is older than me, cute as can be, petite, and can backpack, climb, cave, and camp with the best of the men. Beauty, brains, brawn, and a determined spirit.

 

Girls rarely see a strong women leaders and guys rarely see strong male leaders, and that's universally true to any organization. As far as the church goes, I understand why a church service basically works they way it does, but in search of an unoffensive and universally appealling product, men a left in the dust (understandably because we're only 35-45% of the population).

 

what a lot of churches are doing now is trying to understand the prevailing culture or certain segments of the population and organize their efforts to appeal to those groups. I'm in that category.

[YASNY]

It's comical to see how many times one person can be owned in one thread and yet, still not have clue that they are getting b**** slapped time after time after time after .....

[Texsox]

It's comical to see how many times one person can be owned in one thread and yet, still not have clue that they are getting b**** slapped time after time after time after .....

I guess I'm a little slow, why should this thread be any different

[Wong & Owens]

From "deconstructionists" there's dispute about Jesus' existence and his followers, but deconstructionists get their Ph.D's from pushing these arguments.  Archeologists have verified, or at least given credence, to a whole lot of things that the demythologizers thought they debunked a century ago.

 

Again, I would disagree. There is nothing close to a consensus of archaeologists who claim to have found enough evidence to say that Jesus existed. They haven't said he didn't either, to be fair.

 

The truth is that there is as much historical evidence that Jesus existed as there is that Augustus Caesar existed.  Using modern criteria of "evidence," the existence of either one could be placed in doubt.

 

I would like to see some type of comparison of the amount of evidence that we have for Caesar. and the amount we have for Jesus. I don't believe the piles would be the same size at all, but I'm open to hearing an argument on this.

 

 

but Christianity was not concocted as some spiritual snake-oil formula.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree

[AnthraxFan93]

It's comical to see how many times one person can be owned in one thread and yet, still not have clue that they are getting b**** slapped time after time after time after .....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yet you keep coming back.. I will Never understand it..

Edited January 13, 2006 by AnthraxFan93

[mreye]

OK, for sake of arguement, let's say God doesn't exist, Jesus never walked the earth and religion is a cult led by a bunch of brainwashers.

 

Now, what are some of the things, measly little me would not have done:

 

I would not have given money to the church each week, which is used to help numerous people in need. - Sorry, you won't have heat this winter, but at least I'm not being brainwashed anymore.

 

I would not donate food to the church food drive each month. - Sorry, you'll be hungry this Thanksgiving, but now I have a mind of my own.

 

I would not have taken two tags from the church "giving tree" - Sorry little kiddies, your Christmas will not be rememberable. Hey, Anthraxfan has made me see the light!

 

I would not have, through the Knights of Columbus, held multiple dinners for victims of an apartment fire in our town (Only one family was Catholic, mind you) - Sorry, I know you've lost everything, but now you're going to be hungry too. Get off my lawn, you homeless people!

 

 

 

 

Yep, religion really sucks! I'm going to save a lot of money and time! Thanks, Anthrax!

[YASNY]

Yet you keep coming back.. I will Never understand it..

 

And that is the root of the problem.