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[SSH2005]

The point I am making is arbitrarily not negotiating with someone because you fear losing doesn't hurt anyone but the Sox.

 

Boras works very hard for his clients, and they generally do very well financially. Now to hear some people here, every free agent the past year should be kicking themselves for not signing with the Sox and winning a championship.

 

I find it very silly to blame Boras when a team overspends. What does he do to make them over spend? Are they spellbound when they look in his eyes? Does he secretly speak in subliminal messages? Is it magic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I really don't think that refusing to negotiate with Boras is a truly horrible stance anyways. Recent history has shown that greatly overpaying top free agents usually hurts a team's chances of competing more than just signing a few mid-level free agents. A bunch of good players will win more games than a single star player.

 

Boras doesn't make teams overpay. Teams stupidly agree to his terms. But Boras does screw up the free agent market for everyone else.

Edited January 12, 2006 by SSH2005

[Balta1701]

My real worry about Boras isn't as much the FA Market, I think the Yankees screw that up more than anyone, including Boras. My concern is the draft.

 

Over the last few years, the only way to really build a successful team without being the Yankees and buying everyone you could dream of has been to draft well. Once you do that, you can move drafted pieces to fill holes, or to further build your farm system.

 

But, the last few years, we've seen more and more young guys signing with Boras before they're even drafted, and when a guy signs with Boras, he tends to drop precipitously in the draft until you get to one of the 4-5 teams who can afford Boras's signing bonus. In other words, just because of Boras, the richer teams are able to afford better drafts - they get top 10 pick talent in the 30's, for example.

 

Yeah, there's always going to be standouts, like our starting pitchers from the 17th and 38th rounds, but at some level you can't build a team entirely off of lightning striking, and that's my real worry. If teams like K.C., Oakland, Minny, etc., can't build through the draft because they can't afford a player's signing bonus, then the only teams building through the draft on a regular basis will be the ones with big money, and then we might as well just toss the league out the window.

[Dick Allen]

My real worry about Boras isn't as much the FA Market, I think the Yankees screw that up more than anyone, including Boras.  My concern is the draft.

 

Over the last few  years, the only way to really build a successful team without being the Yankees and buying everyone you could dream of has been to draft well.  Once you do that, you can move drafted pieces to fill holes, or to further build your farm system.

 

But, the last few years, we've seen more and more young guys signing with Boras before they're even drafted, and when a guy signs with Boras, he tends to drop precipitously in the draft until you get to one of the 4-5 teams who can afford Boras's signing bonus.  In other words, just because of Boras, the richer teams are able to afford better drafts - they get top 10 pick talent in the 30's, for example.

 

Yeah, there's always going to be standouts, like our starting pitchers from the 17th and 38th rounds, but at some level you can't build a team entirely off of lightning striking, and that's my real worry.  If teams like K.C., Oakland, Minny, etc., can't build through the draft because they can't afford a player's signing bonus, then the only teams building through the draft on a regular basis will be the ones with big money, and then we might as well just toss the league out the window.

 

This is another reason I don't know why the players and owners didn't slot the draft, moneywise. It would free up money for established players, while keeping bonuses given to players who haven't done anything reasonable. Also, trading draft picks should be allowed. It is horrible that bad teams have to draft lesser players because of signability. Its the only major sport with this problem, and its the only major sport with perhaps the exception of hockey, where your draft picks aren't going to be ready to contribute on the major league level for a few years.

[TLAK]

Yes there is talk of Josh playing 1st and he played one game at 1st last year when Rogo went down with an injury.  I also agree his footwork is still a big problem and I hope he improves this season because the guy can hit and did show some flashes of brilliance at the hot corner this season

In Chcago we get a lot of Sox ST games on TV. Last spring was the only time I ever saw him and he was pretty rough. I'm looking forward to seeing him again this year and watching his progress. Then I think most of us, who haven't seen him as much as you have, can have a little more informed view of him.

[southsider2k5]

The point I am making is arbitrarily not negotiating with someone because you fear losing doesn't hurt anyone but the Sox.

 

Boras works very hard for his clients, and they generally do very well financially. Now to hear some people here, every free agent the past year should be kicking themselves for not signing with the Sox and winning a championship.

 

I find it very silly to blame Boras when a team overspends. What does he do to make them over spend? Are they spellbound when they look in his eyes? Does he secretly speak in subliminal messages? Is it magic?

 

The Sox won a World Series title last year, how much did not having to negotitate with Borass actually hurt them? In fact I would argue the financial flexibility we got from not overpaying for his clients is what made up able to field a deep team that ended up winning it all, where as we could have overpaid for one or two positions and ended up having holes in others as we tried to squeeze into our budget, and probably not have won anything.

[Texsox]

The Sox won a World Series title last year, how much did not having to negotitate with Borass actually hurt them?  In fact I would argue the financial flexibility we got from not overpaying for his clients is what made up able to field a deep team that ended up winning it all, where as we could have overpaid for one or two positions and ended up having holes in others as we tried to squeeze into our budget, and probably not have won anything.

 

Signing a Boras client = overpaying ???

 

Again, what does Boras do to force a team to sign a contract? Hyposis? Subliminal messages?

 

What it seems you are saying is Boras is the best negotiator out there. Better than every GM, certainly better than K-Dub? If you enter into negotiations with Boras you will overspend, you do not have free will. I guess I can accept that.

 

It doesn't matter who the agent is if you overspend. Why would overspending on one of MGI's players hurt less than overspending on a Boras client? Of course it doesn't make a difference.

 

The Sox didn't win a Championship in 2000-2004 how much did not negotiating with Boras have to do with that? It's a silly question. The team also won without anyone named Thome, why get one now?

 

I just don't get why everyone is scared of Boras.

[SSH2005]

Signing a Boras client = overpaying ???

 

Again, what does Boras do to force a team to sign a contract? Hyposis? Subliminal messages?

 

What it seems you are saying is Boras is the best negotiator out there. Better than every GM, certainly better than K-Dub? If you enter into negotiations with Boras you will overspend, you do not have free will. I guess I can accept that.

 

It doesn't matter who the agent is if you overspend. Why would overspending on one of MGI's players hurt less than overspending on a Boras client? Of course it doesn't make a difference.

 

The Sox didn't win a Championship in 2000-2004 how much did not negotiating with Boras have to do with that? It's a silly question. The team also won without anyone named Thome, why get one now?

 

I just don't get why everyone is scared of Boras.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boras and his clients = a monopoly

 

Boras hordes together all the best free agents. If teams want the top free agents they are forced to pay his ridiculously high price.

[Texsox]

Boras and his clients = a monopoly

 

Boras hordes together all the best free agents.  If teams want the top free agents they are forced to pay his ridiculously high price.

 

And if no teams accept the asking price the player will . . . retire? go to Japan? accept the highest someone is willing to pay?

 

Almost every player is overpaid in the sense that they generally sign with the highest bidder. So whatever team they signed with was willing to pay more than every other team.

 

Boras is a better negotiator than most, but subject to the same supply and demand and economics as everyone else. He grabs the headlines because a handful of his clients are mega stars, but any player could wind up being overpaid. Who knows for certain how a guy will be playing in year three or four of a contract? It's an educated guess at best. If Konerko produces at Ross Gload levels in 2007, he's overpaid. If he turns in Vlade numbers, he's underpaid. Does that have anything really to do with his agent and this contract? Only slightly. His performance will determine if he is over or under paid.

[SpringfieldFan]

Anyone who's so afraid they will get "taken" by an agent that they would rather run away doesn't have what it takes to be in the business, IMO.

 

SFF

Edited January 12, 2006 by SpringfieldFan

[Texsox]

Anyone who's so afraid they will get "taken" by an agent that they would rather run away doesn't have what it takes to be in the business, IMO.

 

SFF

 

[southsider2k5]

Anyone who's so afraid they will get "taken" by an agent that they would rather run away doesn't have what it takes to be in the business, IMO.

 

SFF

 

I guess 7 World Titles (6 NBA and 1 World Series) would say otherwise about Jerry Reinsdorf wouldn't they?

[southsider2k5]

Signing a Boras client = overpaying ???

 

Again, what does Boras do to force a team to sign a contract? Hyposis? Subliminal messages?

 

What it seems you are saying is Boras is the best negotiator out there. Better than every GM, certainly better than K-Dub? If you enter into negotiations with Boras you will overspend, you do not have free will. I guess I can accept that.

 

It doesn't matter who the agent is if you overspend. Why would overspending on one of MGI's players hurt less than overspending on a Boras client? Of course it doesn't make a difference.

 

The Sox didn't win a Championship in 2000-2004 how much did not negotiating with Boras have to do with that? It's a silly question. The team also won without anyone named Thome, why get one now?

 

I just don't get why everyone is scared of Boras.

 

I think both of their histories speak for themselves. Kenny Williams won a WS without a single FA signed from the Borass stable. Scott Borass clients own a majority of the worst contracts in baseball history. Time after time, contract after contract history proves out that teams desparate to add a player from his group will get misled into paying more than anyone else was even close to willing to spend. Spending the extra money on those players for a team with a fixed budget means that they have to go without somewhere else. Williams and Reinsdorf have decided not to shop on 5th avenue, and instead went over to the outlet mall to get the best bang for their buck. They shopped around, compared lists and made out like bandits, while teams like the Yankees who believe price tag=World Series, were left watching the festivities on TV after paying nearly TRIPLE what the White Sox did. I really don't think that the Sox are afraid of Borass, I think they realize that he has lied to them in prior negotations, dragging their good name through the mud repeatedly, and just like someone who gets treated like crap in a certian store, they decided never to go back in there again to shop. They took their money elsewhere and did just fine.

[Milkman delivers]

I think both of their histories speak for themselves.  Kenny Williams won a WS without a single FA signed from the Borass stable.  Scott Borass clients own a majority of the worst contracts in baseball history.  Time after time, contract after contract history proves out that teams desparate to add a player from his group will get misled into paying more than anyone else was even close to willing to spend.  Spending the extra money on those players for a team with a fixed budget means that they have to go without somewhere else.  Williams and Reinsdorf have decided not to shop on 5th avenue, and instead went over to the outlet mall to get the best bang for their buck.  They shopped around, compared lists and made out like bandits, while teams like the Yankees who believe price tag=World Series, were left watching the festivities on TV after paying nearly TRIPLE what the White Sox did.  I really don't think that the Sox are afraid of Borass, I think they realize that he has lied to them in prior negotations, dragging their good name through the mud repeatedly, and just like someone who gets treated like crap in a certian store, they decided never to go back in there again to shop.  They took their money elsewhere and did just fine.

 

I agree with everything you said, but I don't know what you're talking about dragging their name through the mud. Could you explain that one?

[southsider2k5]

I agree with everything you said, but I don't know what you're talking about dragging their name through the mud.  Could you explain that one?

 

A bunch of stuff got said during the Maggs negotiations.

[Soxbadger]

Its much easier to be Boras than it is to be a GM or owner.

 

Boras has 1 goal, $. He doesnt have to make people happy, he doesnt have to make sure his clients actually play well, all he has to do is make sure that the contract they sign is iron clad.

 

That is why it is difficult to negotiate with an agent. They have almost all of the leverage when you are dealing with a player more than 1 team wants. They know the offers, they know what the teams are saying, they have the information. The GM, owner, only has what the agent tells them, and more often then not its smoke as compared to truth.

 

Its really not that hard to go out and get contracts like Boras does, especially when its the players who do the talking not you.

[Texsox]

Players contracts are determined years down the road, on the field.

 

If Konerko plays like a couple seasons ago, it's a bad contract.

If he continues to improve slightly, it's fair.

If he continues to improve by leaps and bounds, it's a great contract for the team.

 

Obviously the team is hoping for #3. Where in this curve, the player's contract falls is a result of the negotiations between the team and the player. A slightly under market contract makes 2 or 3 more likely, a over market contract makes 1 or 2 more likely.

 

Can you list Boras' clients? How many mid level prospects does he represent? How many of those have "bad contracts"?

 

How many of these are Boras clients?

 

ROMANO E-mail:

Click here Archive

By JOHN ROMANO, Times Sports Columnist

Published May 15, 2005

 

You, too, have been screwed. You didn't get the view you were promised, you didn't get the color you asked for, you didn't get the pizza you ordered.

 

So you ask for the manager, you demand to see the supervisor, you want to know, by gosh, how long before you get your refund.

 

You know how it works. You have been through it a thousand times. Eventually, you will have your satisfaction.

 

Except in a case such as this. How, exactly, do you return a bad Giambi?

 

Because, I'm telling you, no one from Oakland is working the refund desk on this one. I'm not even sure his parents would take him back. The Yankees are stuck with this lemon, and they still owe about $82-million on the bill.

 

It has, quite possibly, become the worst contract in baseball history. Maybe world history, although I hear the Peloponnesians were big spenders.

 

The Yankees gave Jason Giambi a seven-year, $120-million contract in 2002, and they regret it a little more with every passing third strike.

 

Their consternation at what to do with this bloated contract got me wondering about other bad baseball deals. Is this really the worst of the worst? Have there been other teams stuck with more useless appendages?

 

So, in the name of consumer affairs, I have compiled a list of some of the most odious contracts to ever stand on the mound or step to the plate.

 

The list, as you might suspect, is heavy on the present. Before free agency in 1976, most contracts were one-year, one-way, take-it-or-leave-it deals. A bad deal in April, was done by October.

 

This is why you used to see more holdouts. Joe DiMaggio used to spend spring by a hotel pool in St. Petersburg because he rarely came to terms with the Yankees until mid March or later. Home Run Baker led the American League in homers for four consecutive seasons, but missed a chance for a fifth because he was a holdout for the entire 1915 season.

 

Contracts were based not on future potential, but on recent performance. Mickey Mantle hit 31 homers in 1959, but that was a dropoff from 42 the year before. So he took a pay cut from $72,000 to $65,000 in 1960.

 

In other words, teams used to hold all the leverage. With that in mind, here is a list of some of the worst purchases.

 

JASON GIAMBI: Putting aside, for a moment, that Giambi was a one-dimensional player. That he had a reputation as a partier. That his agent apparently requested the Yankees remove any references to steroids in his contract. Even ignoring all that, this deal still looked bad. The Yankees backloaded the contract so they would owe him more money the older he got. That makes Giambi, 34, virtually untradable. New York is not halfway through a seven-year, $120-million deal with a player who can't hit his weight.

 

HACK WILSON: The Depression-era Giambi. Wilson also had a hefty body and a penchant for the night life. After setting a National League record with 56 homers and 191 RBIs in 1930, the Cubs made Wilson the highest-paid player in the NL at $35,000. Legend has it, most of the money was left in saloons. Wilson hit 13 homers in 1931 and was traded. Four years after one of the greatest seasons in history, Wilson was out of baseball.

 

ANDY MESSERSMITH: He challenged baseball's reserve clause and ushered in the era of free agency in 1976. While signing Messersmith to a three-year, $1.75-million contract, Ted Turner says he will be a Brave for life. Messersmith wins 16 games in two years and is traded to the Yankees. Baseball's first free agent was also the first bomb.

 

THE ERA OF INSANITY: Take your pick. Kevin Brown (seven years, $100-million), Mike Hampton (eight years, $121-million), Ken Griffey Jr. (nine years, $116.5-million), Mike Piazza (seven years, $91-million), Mo Vaughn (six years, $80-million) Shawn Green (six years, $84-million) and Alex Rodriguez (10 years, $250-million) signed absurd deals between 1998-2000.

 

WARREN SPAHN: Sometimes, even Hall of Famers will fool you. Coming off a 23-7 season, Spahn signed an $85,000 one-year deal with the Braves in 1964, becoming the highest-paid pitcher in the game. One problem. He's 43. Spahn went 6-13 with a 5.29 ERA.

 

PAUL PETTIT: Usually, it's the prospects who fool you. Pettit of Lomita, Calif., was such a hot commodity coming out of high school in 1950 that a Hollywood producer signed him to a personal services contract. The Pirates then gave Pettit a $100,000 signing bonus. To put that in perspective, a year earlier DiMaggio had become baseball's first $100,000 player. Pettit pitched in 12 games for the Pirates, winning one.

 

MATT WHITE: From the they-never-learn department. Nearly 50 years after Pettit flopped, the Devil Rays thought they had the next school-boy legend. In 1997, the Rays signed White to a $10.2-million deal, the largest bonus ever given to an amateur free agent. Eight years, and a sore arm later, White is still in the minors.

 

MARK DAVIS: A wrong move can send a franchise into a tailspin. From 1976-89, the Royals won six division titles, two pennants and a World Series. They never finished lower than third. Then came Davis. A nondescript pitcher who had a career year with 44 saves for the Padres in '89, Davis was signed to a four-year, $14-million deal. He had 11 saves the rest of his career. The Royals finished sixth, and have yet to return to the postseason.

 

THE DUELING DOPES: They were young, exciting and brash. In 1990, Jose Canseco and Darryl Strawberry were also the highest-paid players in history. Canseco had a five-year, $23.5-million contract with Oakland and Strawberry signed a five-year, $20.25-million deal with Los Angeles. Both would soon be traded and their legacies are now a lesson in wasted talent.

 

YES, MAYBE EVEN WORSE THAN GIAMBI: You can make an argument to overpay a superstar. You can make an argument to overpay the hottest prospect. You cannot, in any way, excuse the overpayment of mediocrity. Chan Ho Park (five years, $65-million), Darren Dreifort (five years, $55-million) and Kevin Appier (four years, $42-million) are personal favorites. Wilson Alvarez (five years, $35-million)? Call that a sentimental favorite.

[southsider2k5]

Here is the wikipedia list of Borass clients, they claim it is incomplete, but there are some pretty great examples of horrible deals in this bunch

 

Rick Ankiel

Carlos Baerga

Carlos Beltrán

Adrián Beltré

Ian Bladergroen

Barry Bonds

Chris Bootcheck

Taggert Bozied

Kevin Brown

Bobby Brownlie

Bruce Chen

Joe Crede

Johnny Damon

Darren Dreifort

J.D. Drew

Stephen Drew

Prince Fielder

Eric Gagné

Tyler Greene

Jeremy Guthrie

Craig Hansen

  Bobby Hill

Chan Ho Park

Luke Hochevar

Frank Hullings

Andruw Jones

Danny Kolb

Jeff Larish

Travis Lee

Derek Lowe

Matt Lungariello

Greg Maddux

Mark McCormick

Kevin Millwood

Xavier Nady

David Newhan

Magglio Ordóñez

Corey Patterson

Eric Patterson

Mark Pawelek

Mike Pelfrey

Carlos Pena

  Oliver Pérez

Guillermo Quiroz

Anthony Reyes

Alex Rodriguez

Iván Rodríguez

Kenny Rogers

Ray Sanchez

Julian Tavarez

Taylor Teagarden

Mark Teixeira

Chin-hui Tsao

Jason Varitek

Ron Villone

Jarrod Washburn

Jeff Weaver

Jered Weaver

Matt White

Brad Wilkerson

Bernie Williams

Carlos Zambrano

Jimmy Delgado

[Milkman delivers]

I didn't know Prince Fielder, Andruw Jones, and Greg Maddux were Boras agents. I used to like those guys, but to hell with them. Maddux has really fallen out of grace with me the last year.

[Texsox]

Here is the wikipedia list of Borass clients, they claim it is incomplete, but there are some pretty great examples of horrible deals in this bunch

 

Are all of them bad? Are there the same percentage as other agents? Are they bad because of injuries?

 

If you were a GM starting a team, would you want access to this list of players, or be told they are off limits?

 

We agree on the damages a bad contract has. We differ on how those bad contracts come about. I blame the teams for over estimating what a player will do and paying him that amount. I cannot believe Boras has some special mind control over GMs who just can't help themselves.

 

BTW, you are awesome, I ever could find a list of his clients.

[southsider2k5]

Are all of them bad? Are there the same percentage as other agents? Are they bad because of injuries?

 

If you were a GM starting a team, would you want access to this list of players, or be told they are off limits?

 

We agree on the damages a bad contract has. We differ on how those bad contracts come about. I blame the teams for over estimating what a player will do and paying him that amount. I cannot believe Boras has some special mind control over GMs who just can't help themselves.

 

BTW, you are awesome, I ever could find a list of his clients. 

 

OK how about this... How many of the guys on that list after they got their big free agent contract, were a bargain at the end of their deal?

[qwerty]

OK how about this... How many of the guys on that list after they got their big free agent contract, were a bargain at the end of their deal?

 

The same could honestly be said for mostly any of the other big name players boras does not represent. Many big name players contracts are heavily back loaded. Out of lets say the top 30 players that have signed long term contracts through free agency in the last 3 years i can only think of a handful that are a bargain. The only bargains in baseball are the cliff politte type signings... when you look back on it of course. Even then i thought it was a nice signing.

Edited January 12, 2006 by q\/\/3r+y

[Guest JimH]

Tex, I suspect the clients who sign with Boras are those who place the almighty dollar above everything else. Above loyalty to a team, their teammates, a city, whatever variable that's out there.

 

Personally I prefer not to have those types on my team, it seems the White Sox agree.

 

You are right, no one puts a gun to an owners or a players head in negotiations. However there are a lot of teams that choose not to deal with this guy, winning organizations and bottom feeders alike, particularly re: the draft. Not coincidental in my book. His stated purpose is to get players to free agency, and those players who align with that philosophy hook up with him.

 

Good example, Jeff Weaver, southern California born and bred but somehow can't come to terms with the deep pocket LA Dodgers. Weaver has many times stated how much he loves socal. Lo and behold he's now a FA. He better hope LAA are interested, they may well be, but the inability to get a deal signed has Boras' fingerprints all over it. Can't prove it, it's all opinion, but Scott Boras is all about $$, nothing else.

 

Good for the White Sox for staying away from someone whose clients take forever to sign. Too many mind games and delays, which often impede making other personnel moves and getting other things done.

[Texsox]

Imagine a league with free agency where the players only cared about winning? How would you like to compete with the Yankees when they are turning away all-star players offering to play for league minimum? Thank our lucky stars that they have that huge payroll and make mistakes like with Giambi.

 

I think some players sign with Boras as a status symbol. He has the best of the best every year and like driving an Escalade, players want the feeling of being with and having the best. Those players looking for the almighty dollar are with every agent. And let's not forget that the teams aren't exactly the most loyal. Have you seen Frank lately? Fisk? So teams whining that Boras players aren't loyal or only care about money, just falls on deaf ears.

[Guest JimH]

Imagine a league with free agency where the players only cared about winning? How would you like to compete with the Yankees when they are turning away all-star players offering to play for league minimum? Thank our lucky stars that they have that huge payroll and make mistakes like with Giambi.

 

I think some players sign with Boras as a status symbol. He has the best of the best every year and like driving an Escalade, players want the feeling of being with and having the best. Those players looking for the almighty dollar are with every agent. And let's not forget that the teams aren't exactly the most loyal. Have you seen Frank lately? Fisk? So teams whining that Boras players aren't loyal or only care about money, just falls on deaf ears.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why am I not shocked you bring up Fisk whom in your eyes were so wronged by the White Sox?

 

I get it that loyalty is a two way street.

 

It is no mystery to me why Scott Boras has the reputation he has, nor is it a mystery to me why the White Sox and other teams prefer not to deal with him.

[ottawa_sox]

Lyman Bostock - where forever art thou!