FlaSoxxJim Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Judas the Misunderstood From Richard Owen, in Rome Vatican moves to clear reviled disciple’s name JUDAS ISCARIOT, the disciple who betrayed Jesus with a kiss, is to be given a makeover by Vatican scholars. The proposed “rehabilitation” of the man who was paid 30 pieces of silver to identify Jesus to Roman soldiers in the Garden of Gethsemane, comes on the ground that he was not deliberately evil, but was just “fulfilling his part in God’s plan”. Christians have traditionally blamed Judas for aiding and abetting the Crucifixion, and his name is synonymous with treachery. According to St Luke, Judas was “possessed by Satan”. Now, a campaign led by Monsignor Walter Brandmuller, head of the Pontifical Committee for Historical Science, is aimed at persuading believers to look kindly at a man reviled for 2,000 years. Mgr Brandmuller told fellow scholars it was time for a “re-reading” of the Judas story. He is supported by Vittorio Messori, a prominent Catholic writer close to both Pope Benedict XVI and the late John Paul II. . . . http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13...-RSS&attr=World Pretty much how Rice and Lloyd-Webber portrayed him 30+ years ago? The Rosencrantz and/or Guildenstern of the Jesus Saga, with little say as to the role into which he was cast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I just re-read the story about the Catholic Church needing to stop worrying about how Judas is remembered 2000 years after the fact and how they need to spend that money instead on feeding starving people.... :headshake 1 Corinthians, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 01:47 AM) :headshake 1 Corinthians, by the way. They make darn good leather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 12:47 AM) I just re-read the story about the Catholic Church needing to stop worrying about how Judas is remembered 2000 years after the fact and how they need to spend that money instead on feeding starving people.... :headshake 1 Corinthians, by the way. And the Catholic Church has a great track record of that. Are you suggesting that Churches could abandon all religious studies and just concentrate on feeding bodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin57 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 The Catholic Church has done more to help people in 3rd World Countries than any other organization. Can anyone say Mother Teresa, or Catholic schools in India (which are kicking the s*** out of our school system), or AIDS clinics in Africa, etc., etc., etc. As for the Judas re-reading, I don't think it will have much legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 This is nothing new... See also Mary Magdaline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 07:04 AM) They make darn good leather. I completely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 12, 2006 -> 11:26 PM) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13...-RSS&attr=World Pretty much how Rice and Lloyd-Webber portrayed him 30+ years ago? The Rosencrantz and/or Guildenstern of the Jesus Saga, with little say as to the role into which he was cast? Is anyone other than me distrubed a little bit by the responsibility angle in this re-versioning? Think about this for a second. If we now say that Judas (one of the most obvious and well-known examples of a man who CHOSE to commit a grave act) wasn't really so bad, what is the consequence on learning about responsibility? If some kid in CCD learns that Judas chose to be evil, but hey that's OK because it was God's plan, doesn't that sound to him/her like it aleviates their guilt in any evil act? This one scares me. As soon as they say that we have no choice, it's all in the plan, blah blah blah... the church takes a step away from personal responsibility of it's people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 this falls under the "God hardened Pharoh's heart" category... as for abandoning all studies is not what I suggested; there's a huge difference between not continuing to understand God's word and a PR campaign to get Judas out of the Dog House... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 09:48 AM) This is nothing new... See also Mary Magdaline. Except the church made her into a whore with no biblical basis. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 I see the thread has been filibusterized. That's cool, but I posted it more as a news item and to get people's opinions on it, not to politicize it in any way. NorthSideSox72, I assume your opinion is very much the opinion of mainstream RC. But the question remains as to whether Judas' will, or Peter's, Pilate's, etc., was really free if their actions were foretold and pretty much had to take place to further the events of the Jesus Saga. This question is more one of a theological/philosophical nature than one of the historicity of New Testament events. But I think that, without having to formalize tthe thoughts, a lot of Catholics see Judas a a sympathetic character caught up in events much larger than himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 10:52 AM) I see the thread has been filibusterized. That's cool, but I posted it more as a news item and to get people's opinions on it, not to politicize it in any way. NorthSideSox72, I assume your opinion is very much the opinion of mainstream RC. But the question remains as to whether Judas' will, or Peter's, Pilate's, etc., was really free if their actions were foretold and pretty much had to take place to further the events of the Jesus Saga. This question is more one of a theological/philosophical nature than one of the historicity of New Testament events. But I think that, without having to formalize tthe thoughts, a lot of Catholics see Judas a a sympathetic character caught up in events much larger than himself. I suppose one can never know for sure if there is a plan. But I believe strongly in both free will, and in people taking responsibility for their actions. Pilate is a fascinating character, and I see him as sort of the opposite of Judas. Pilate was a moderating force in a strong arm regime, trying to battle against the influences of Rome and the masses. Judas was in with what he saw as the savior, and chose to betray him. But I must admit, those are just my takes on things, and I am nothing like an expert on the history of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 09:52 AM) I see the thread has been filibusterized. That's cool, but I posted it more as a news item and to get people's opinions on it, not to politicize it in any way. My idea. I felt any religious topic was best back here. I'm just guessing that religion may prove to be a hot topic. Of course it hasn't so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(Texsox @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 11:20 AM) My idea. I felt any religious topic was best back here. I'm just guessing that religion may prove to be a hot topic. Of course it hasn't so far You'll notice that I have so ffar managed to stear well clear of the current religion kerfuffle. Seems some people are giving us atheists a bad rap over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 10:43 AM) You'll notice that I have so ffar managed to stear well clear of the current religion kerfuffle. Seems some people are giving us atheists a bad rap over there. Your absence has been noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 11:43 AM) You'll notice that I have so ffar managed to stear well clear of the current religion kerfuffle. Seems some people are giving us atheists a bad rap over there. Please feel free to wade in. Your side could use some intelligent arguements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(kevin57 @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 08:40 AM) As for the Judas re-reading, I don't think it will have much legs. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 11:43 AM) You'll notice that I have so ffar managed to stear well clear of the current religion kerfuffle. Seems some people are giving us atheists a bad rap over there. I like the word "kerfuffle". And you are smart to stay out of there. I am sure you'd bring some intelligent arguments to the table, but you REALLY don't want to be on that side in that thread right now. AF93 has guttered that thread like no other I've seen in a while. Nothing good can come of any posts in there anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 11:43 AM) You'll notice that I have so ffar managed to stear well clear of the current religion kerfuffle. Seems some people are giving us atheists a bad rap over there. Awww, I thought we were tight. I see how it is now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 13, 2006 -> 12:24 PM) Awww, I thought we were tight. I see how it is now Meh, when you were mistakenly called out as the self-identified "recovering Catholic" and didn't say, 'No, wait, that's Flaxx, I got the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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