Red Sox trade for Coco Crisp

[jphat007]

Crisp is a very, very good player, and I'm happy he's gone.  Also, if they go from Bettancourt to Mota, that would be a downgrade.  Mota's a clubhouse cancer, and his stuff has deteriorated in the last few years.

 

Exactly. Mota is extremely overrated. Headcase with diminishing stuff, and I'll bet he gets rocked in the AL.

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

wow...I might as well go to Boston! Willie's there, Coco's gonna be there! Well, the only thing I know is that I'm definetly going to a Sox-Sox game this season!

Coco being there lessens the chances of Willie being there!

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jan 22, 2006 -> 02:43 PM)

You have to admit you slurped Marte as "the closest thing to a can't miss prospect." If I had the search feature available I could find your exact quotes.

 

I would think you'd be up in arms about this trade. You can reserve your feelings until any proposed trade is finalized, but I know personally I'll be upset if such as trade is allowed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

my opinion of andy marte has not changed. i still think he's a cant miss prospect, just as i did when the red sox had first acquired him.

 

and like i said, ill withhold judgement until the deal is completed.

[Flash Tizzle]

You envy a rival team for trying to build something we already have?

 

They're not meant to be equal. I envy Dodgers farm system, doesn't mean I would trade the excitement and gratification of a world series for it. I only envy the singular event of the Indians having the luxury of trading Crisp for a quality bullpen arm and a Top 5 prospect. Cleveland managed to significantly improve the future of their club without forsaking too much of their offense.

[3E8]

I envy the fact that Shapiro has put together a solid, young, relatively inexpensive nucleus of position players, seemingly even stronger now with the addition of Marte. I'm not sure of the Indians future budget projections, but they have created some financial freedom most teams would enjoy. I would expect them to make a big splash in the deep 1B FA market after '06, and probably strengthen the bullpen too. By that time Sowers and Carmona should be ready for the rotation as well.

 

Obviously it's more important to own a World Series title than to successfully put together a competetive team on a small budget, but I can admire the steps Shapiro has taken to try and establish the AL Central dominance the Indians had not too long ago.

[ZoomSlowik]

Apparently I'm one of the few that isn't overly impressed with what the Indians are doing. To me they look an awful lot like us from about 1999-2004. They developed a few quality position players from their system and made some smart trades to get other players, but they're doing even less on the pitching front than we were. Okay, so maybe Millwood=Loaiza, but they don't really have anything similar to the acquisitions of Wells and Colon. I don't see them really building a perrenial WS contender with this team. At best they might put together a run like they did in the late 90's, but their lineup isn't as good as that one was. They'll eventually need to address the pitching to really make progress.

 

They've got some pretty good young position players, and they were smart enough to lock up Hafner and Martinez. Sizemore and Perralta look pretty good too. But 4 position players doesn't prove anything, especially when none of them have done it for more than 2 years. Their other efforts have not been as successful. Lee is only a passable pitcher so far that is somewhat similar to Garland before he broke out. Sabathia is supposed to be their version of Buehrle, but he hasn't produced all that well. Outside of that, Marte and Sower may or may not turn into an above average player. They still have some work to do before we call them a pending dynasty. Are the guys they developed thus far really any better than the Thomas/Ordonez/Lee/Konerko group the last 5 years? I don't think so.

[DBAHO]

Stll not really better for the Red Sox;

 

According to the Boston Glove, the Red Sox will acquire Coco Crisp, David Riske and Josh Bard from the Indians for Andy Marte, Guillermo Mota and Kelly Shoppach.

We're probably as big of Riske fans as anyone, but this isn't much better for Boston. Bard ceased making progress years ago, and it looks like other teams have stopped thinking of him as a regular. Shoppach can be twice the player that Bard is. Riske is probably a modest upgrade over Mota in middle relief, though the Indians didn't have much use for him. Crisp for Marte is still the killer, no matter how solid of a player Crisp has become. What makes things even worse is that with Kevin Youkilis no longer needed at the top of the lineup, we can see Terry Francona giving J.T. Snow way too much playing time at first base. The Globe suggests that the only hurdle remaining for the trade is a Mota physical. Jan. 23 - 1:52 am et

[redandwhite]

the herald has a different take:

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/sportsNe...&format=&page=1

[Flash Tizzle]

the herald has a different take:

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/sportsNe...&format=&page=1

 

Slightly different. They mention the Red Sox obtaining Coco Crisp (in addition to a prospect) for Marte an Mota. No exchange of Riske mentioned.

 

Are you going to tell us your opinion now that's it's clear Mota/Marte for Crisp is the main component of the deal?

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jan 23, 2006 -> 02:05 AM)

Slightly different. They mention the Red Sox obtaining Coco Crisp (in addition to a prospect) for Marte an Mota. No exchange of Riske mentioned.

 

Are you going to tell us your opinion now that's it's clear Mota/Marte for Crisp is the main component of the deal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i think its alot to give up for coco crisp, and when you consider the moneys exchanging hands in the original renteria deal, it only makes it worse.

 

although, this is in no way a jeff bagwell/larry anderson type deal. the red sox will control crisp for the next four years, and however good marte becomes, crisp will be an excellent player aswell.

 

again though, nothing has been finalized. we shall see.

[jphat007]

Marte sure is getting traded a bunch for being a can't miss player. Makes one wonder.

[JDsDirtySox]

Remember this trade when the Tribe traded for a can't miss stud.

 

http://www.espn.go.com/mlb/news/2001/1211/1293403.html

[ZoomSlowik]

I don't know if this really helps the Indians that much. I realize that they think that Crisp is expendable, but he's been a pretty solid player the last two years, hitting around .300 twice with mid-teens power and speed, a respectable although not stellar OBP, and decent defense. He's a pretty valuable player if you can put him in CF. Obviously the Indians weren't going to do that though.

 

On the other hand, Mota is a talented reliever, but he's dropped off ever since teams tried to make him a closer. If he turns it around he can be a major asset, but who knows if that will happen. He could be in the same position as Latroy Hawkins right now. As for Marte, he's obviously got talent, but I wouldn't call him a can't miss. He's shown good power and plate discipline, but his contact has not been impressive. He hasn't cracked .280 above AA and he's striking out quite a bit. Maybe it's because he's a bit young for those levels, but until he straightens that out he's not exactly the next Scott Rolen. He's got time to make an impact, but I wouldn't expect him to be a solid full-time starter for another two years given his recent performances (although he might be with the major league club before that).

[ZoomSlowik]

Remember this trade when the Tribe traded for a can't miss stud.

 

http://www.espn.go.com/mlb/news/2001/1211/1293403.html

 

You could put Brandon Phillips in that category too.

[Rowand44]

Remember this trade when the Tribe traded for a can't miss stud.

 

http://www.espn.go.com/mlb/news/2001/1211/1293403.html

That bum landed us Jerry Owens, I'm very greatful for him.

[JDsDirtySox]

That bum landed us Jerry Owens, I'm very greatful for him.

 

I understand... but trades like that make it hard to say the team getting the "Prospect" won.

[Rowand44]

You could put Brandon Phillips in that category too.

Brandon Phillips was in the same deal with Sizemore and Cliff Lee though, so they did turn out ok in that one.

[ZoomSlowik]

Brandon Phillips was in the same deal with Sizemore and Cliff Lee though, so they did turn out ok in that one.

 

I realize that, but he was the most touted and farthest along in his development at the time. IIRC he was one of the top 10 prospects in baseball, and he still hasn't done anything of note.

[Rowand44]

I realize that, but he was the most touted and farthest along in his development at the time. IIRC he was one of the top 10 prospects in baseball, and he still hasn't done anything of note.

Correct. I agree with you guys for the most part. I like Marte but I really believe coco will be a big loss, he can hit and besides Hafner he was probably the toughest out against us that Cleveland had in their lineup.

Edited January 23, 2006 by Rowand44

[JDsDirtySox]

Correct.  I agree with you guys for the most part.  I like Marte but I really believe coco will be a big loss, he can hit and besides Hafner he was probably the toughest out against us that Cleveland had in their lineup.

 

Seriously... Until the last month of the seson when Hafner was lights out, Coco was the Indian that I have always feared the most. It will now sort of be fun to see him stick it to the Yanks.

[RockRaines]

I realize that, but he was the most touted and farthest along in his development at the time. IIRC he was one of the top 10 prospects in baseball, and he still hasn't done anything of note.

Thats because for every top prospect than pans out, there are 5 that dont. Look at our "cant miss" guys over the past 5 years. s*** Joe Crede was an MVP, and Borchard was the 2nd coming of Babe Ruth. You cant never tell until they get there. I will take KW's approach of trading these "studs" for proven players all day long. I cant even believe some people in this thread wishing that KW would act like the twins or cleveland. You want to talk about fleecing? How about Aarond Miles for Uribe? How about getting a clutch playoff pitcher (Garcia) who won us our clinching game 2/3 rounds in the playoffs for bascially a bench catcher and a still unproven OF'er? Indians fans may hate or love this trade, but frankly, if Marte was so "cant miss" he wouldnt have been traded. No matter what a team needs, if you have the opportunity to have a player, who performs at a high level, for a low cost, for several years, you dont trade it.

[Rowand44]

Thats because for every top prospect than pans out, there are 5 that dont.  Look at our "cant miss" guys over the past 5 years.  s*** Joe Crede was an MVP, and Borchard was the 2nd coming of Babe Ruth.  You cant never tell until they get there.  I will take KW's approach of trading these "studs" for proven players all day long.  I cant even believe some people in this thread wishing that KW would act like the twins or cleveland.  You want to talk about fleecing?  How about Aarond Miles for Uribe?  How about getting a clutch playoff pitcher (Garcia) who won us our clinching game  2/3 rounds in the playoffs for bascially a bench catcher and a still unproven OF'er?  Indians fans may hate or love this trade, but frankly, if Marte was so "cant miss" he wouldnt have been traded.  No matter what a team needs, if you have the opportunity to have a player, who performs at a high level, for a low cost, for several years, you dont trade it.

Completely agree rock, fantastic post. It's important to have a good farm system for different reasons depending on how you run your franchise. Kenny seems to have a few guys he loves and won't trade like BA and Brandon and then the rest he'll trade for proven commodities. I love this approach and without it we wouldn't be awaiting a ring ceremony the 2nd game of the season.

Edited January 23, 2006 by Rowand44

[YASNY]

Completely agree rock, fantastic post.  It's important to have a good farm system for different reasons depending on how you run your franchise.  Kenny seems to have a few guys he loves and won't trade like BA and Brandon and then the rest he'll trade for proven commodities.  I love this approach and without it we wouldn't be awaiting a ring ceremony the 2nd game of the season.

 

The farm system is used to supplement the big club. Whether that is by bringing players through the system to the bigs, or by trading them for established players. It doesn't matter how the big club is supplemented as long as the correct decisions are made. With KW, so far so good after a questionable start.

[3E8]

Marte is as good but mostly superior in all offensive categories except stolen bases when compared to Escobar. Escobar had put up two solid full seasons by age 22, Marte has put up four by age 21. Marte has never played in a hitters park that would inflate his numbers either (not saying Escobar did). I think he has a much greater chance of panning out than Escobar ever had, unless these arm problems which someone brought up earlier are serious.

Edited January 23, 2006 by 3E8

[redandwhite]

first of all, just a reminder. nothing has been completed as of right now.

 

second of all, marte is twice the prospect that escobar was during that trade, and suggesting that these two deals have any similarities besides the fact that the indians recieved prospects is ridiculous.