Indians acquire Jason Michaels for Arthur Rhodes

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 02:22 AM)

Say what?

 

Scott Elarton

5.10 career ERA

89 career ERA+

 

Jason Johnson

4.88 career ERA

91 career ERA+

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Yeah, Elarton has a lower career WHIP, an overall better W-L record (Johnson is 34 games under .500 ,) and I don't give a s*** about that + nonsense, because Jason Johnson had a great time padding his stats at home the past couple of years, whereas Elarton did a decent job of recovering from surgery especially after spending time in Colorado.

 

Since we're going to pick and choose stats, I'll bring up the fact that Elarton has a better career K/9, K/BB, H/9, and OBP against.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 02:51 AM)

Batista I agree with.  However, you are big into stats, yet you somehow look over Rondell White's .313 12 53 .348/.489/.837 campaign last year?  Or his career .289 average, .343/.472/.815 line? 

 

I thought White was a great pickup too, along with Castillo.  I would take that out of my fulltime DH if my payroll is next to nothing anyday of the week.  He should be hitting anywhere from 3-5 in the order, and any one of those makes him a very valuable player.

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He's known as "RonDL" for a reason. His bat may be ok, but down count on him for a full season of production. I'd rather see RonDL than Matt Lecroy.

[3E8]

What makes you draw this conclusion?

Because Michaels has nice plate discipline which has constantly improved over his career and will make him an offensive asset. Drew quite a lot of walks hitting in front of Abreu. He's hit for average consistently at all levels. Michaels won't slug as well as Coco will, but his attributes make him a perfect 2-hole replacement.

 

No way.

Jason Johnson is atrocious from the spacious Comerica park and his career numbers are s***tier than Elarton's.  Byrd won't come close to pitching like Millwood did in 2005 either.  Definate downgrade in my book.

Jason Johnson has been pretty consistent for about five years now and there's no question he's been better than Elarton has in that time. Johnson's career started horribly before he became a full-time starter. His ERA hovered around 6 and his WHIP around 1.65 for the first four years. Ever since his ERA has stayed in about a 1 point range between 4 and 5, while maintaining a WHIP around 1.4. That's where you get the difference in career stats. Elarton was impressive last year all things considering, but Johnson is still the better pitcher right now and I think having Carl Willis as a guide keep him towards the better end of his projection.

 

When Byrd starts a full seasons worth of games, he seems to put up good numbers. I guess a lot of my comparison hinges on him getting at least 30 starts. But his control has been damn good the last few seasons and put up a lower WHIP than Millwood last year. If they both stay healthy, Millwood is more valuable, but not by as much as you think.

Edited January 25, 2006 by 3E8

[SSH2005]

Yeah, Elarton has a lower career WHIP, an overall better W-L record (Johnson is 34 games under .500  ,) and I don't give a s*** about that + nonsense, because Jason Johnson had a great time padding his stats at home the past couple of years, whereas Elarton did a decent job of recovering from surgery especially after spending time in Colorado.

 

Since we're going to pick and choose stats, I'll bring up the fact that Elarton has a better career K/9, K/BB, H/9,  and OBP against.

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So I'm picking and choosing stats by using ERA but you are using a great stat when you bring up their respective career records? Hehe, W-L record is the absolute worst judge of a pitcher's talent. By the way, ERA+ is park adjusted.

 

I never said that one guy was better than the other. I think they both equally suck and I don't see how it's a downgrade or an improvement for the Indians. Now, going from Millwood to Byrd IS a pretty big downgrade.

Edited January 25, 2006 by SSH2005

[qwerty]

I'd rather see RonDL than Matt Lecroy.

 

Only time i do not want to see lecroy is when we have a lefty pitching. His three year splits are .252./ .314//.396/.710 against righties. In those last three years white is .105 points better in ops against righties and a .302 hitter against lefties.

 

Rather face lecroy over white any day of the week against a right hander. He should just be signed to platoon.

Edited January 25, 2006 by q\/\/3r+y

[SSH2005]

Only time i do not want to see lecroy is when we have a lefty pitching. His three year splits are .252./ .314//.396/.710 against righties. In those last three years white is .105 points better in ops against righties and a .302 hitter against lefties.

 

Rather face lecroy over white any day of the week against a right hand. He should just be signed to platoon.

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Fatt LeCroy ownz Buehrle.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 03:18 PM)

So I'm picking and choosing stats by using ERA but you are using a great stat win you bring up their respective career records?  Hehe, W-L record is the absolute worst judge of a pitcher's talent.  By the way, ERA+ is park adjusted. 

 

I never said that one guy was better than the other.  I think they both equally suck and I don't see how it's a downgrade or an improvement for the Indians.  Now, going from Millwood to Byrd IS a pretty big downgrade.

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Sigh.....

 

You complete based the comparison for two pitchers on ERA and ERA+. (Pretty much the same thing)

 

It is often said that W-L is a terrible way to judge a pitcher, however that pretty much applies on a yearly basis. 36 games under .500 doesn't say anything to you? The guy was non-tendered by the freaking Orioles back after 2003. Does that mean anything to you? The guy is a born loser, plain and simple, and even though he has a slight edge in ERA (because of Comerica, and Elarton pitching in Colorado) he allows more base runners to reach, and doesn't strikeout as many guys (something you stressed in another thread.)

 

[rant] I'm getting so sick of seeing OPS+ and ERA+ used to compare pitchers and batters from other leagues and different year. I even saw stat-head Dayn Perry mentioning a flaw in the ERA+ system. The + crap is all based on overall numbers. The example Dayn used was with Andy P. and Roger Clemens. Sure, we all know Minute Maid Park is a great place to hit, but it's a much better place for right handers to hit because of the short porch in left. Shouldn't Andy's ERA+ be adjusted higher to account for that?

 

Now for the OPS+ farce. Suppose a Colorado Rockies player posts a line of .400/.525/.890 at home yet has a line of .150/.200/.300 on the road. I imagine his OPS+ would be greater than 100 (above average) because he posted such incredible numbers at home, they will cover up his terrible road numbers. Would you want this player knowing that he is f***ing worthless for 81 games of the year? The numbers would say he an above average hitter at the major league level.

 

Suppose the Rockies had a staff of Pedro Martinez, Felix Hernandez, Jake Peavy, Johan Santana, and Roy Halladay with a lineup that resembles the 2005 Royals. I'm willing to bet those group of players would stastically show that Coors Field is a pitcher park.

[/rant]

 

Jason Johnson is essentially a pitcher in the second example. In 2005 he pitched like a champ at home, but was absolutely f***ing terrible on the road, so his overall numbers turned out ok. Now in 2006 he's leaving that spacious ballpark and he's replacing a guy, who despite arm injuries and spending a few years in

Colorado, had better career numbers than him.

 

Cleveland downgraded their rotation.

[witesoxfan]

He's known as "RonDL" for a reason.  His bat may be ok, but down count on him for a full season of production.  I'd rather see RonDL than Matt Lecroy.

 

Has he ever played a full season as a DH?

 

I know he's injury prone...but I'd have to think he becomes injured after going through the grind of playing in the field day in and day out. I don't think there's a chance in hell White starts in the OF for Minnesota...not with Stewart, Hunter, Kubel, Ford, and probably others as well.

 

I view the White signing as a good one until it is proven that he can't even handle DHing without getting injured.

[3E8]

36 games under .500 doesn't say anything to you? 

Below average pitcher, 1200 innings in the big leagues, never once played for a winning team. Nope, doesn't say much.

 

Elarton did log 20% of his innings at the Astrodome. Coincidentally, this was the only time of his career he was ever above average.

[witesoxfan]

It's official, according to qwertyworld. But I'm a little irked...

 

Shane Victorino - OF - Phillies 

 

 

Shane Victorino becomes the Phillies' fourth outfielder with the trade of Jason Michaels to Cleveland.

 

Victorino, 25, was the International League MVP for hitting .310/.377/.534 with 17 steals for Scranton/Wilkes-Barre last season. He's still not going to get a lot of playing time while the the Phillies' regular outfielders are healthy, but he's a sleeper. Those drafting the injury-prone Aaron Rowand in NL-only leagues should definitely think about adding Victorino as protection

 

Um...since when? It's not like he goes biking and tries to kill himself every offseason. That was a friggin 1 time thing.

[SSH2005]

It's official, according to qwertyworld.  But I'm a little irked...

Um...since when?  It's not like he goes biking and tries to kill himself every offseason.  That was a friggin 1 time thing.

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I hope that's a mistake.