Kyyle23 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(Steve Bartman's my idol @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 02:29 PM) Buehrle is better than ANY one of the above mentioned pitchers. Thats a homer thing to say.....and way wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(Steve Bartman's my idol @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) Buehrle is better than ANY one of the above mentioned pitchers. You are high. Johan Santana is easily the best pitcher in baseball right now. Rich Harden? Jake Peavy? Buehrle is damn good but come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro1983hat Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I love Buehrle, but if someone wanted to give me Johan Santana for him, I would help him pack his bags. As for the argument that occurred earlier in this topic: It seems that on many a message board, someone gets bent out of shape about something and immediately starts someting that has nothing to do with the original topic. Also, some of the longtime posters sometimes do think that any opinion that is not the same as their own is wrong. Also, many people do not spend hours upon hours on this board and are unaware if a topic has already been started if it is not on the first page or two. Oh well. JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(Steve Bartman's my idol @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) Buehrle is better than ANY one of the above mentioned pitchers. Wow, there are a lot of Cy Young award winners in that post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drowninginflame Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 the day this man is not in a sox uniform, I'll cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshot7 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 10:49 AM) Esteban Loaiza started the All Star game a few years back, that doesnt mean he is an ace. Buehrle flirts with being an ace, but he isnt a complete ace right now. He could be, but I guess thats up to him Loaiza was that year. so let me get this argument right - you're saying the best pitcher on the best team in baseball isn't an ace? Does that make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(longshot7 @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 02:40 PM) Loaiza was that year. so let me get this argument right - you're saying the best pitcher on the best team in baseball isn't an ace? Does that make any sense? Thats sort of a weak argument. Just because our players are on the best team, doesnt mean they are studs at every position. Mark is a great pitcher. Has he really reached ACE status yet? Not quite. If he was truly our Ace, there is no way that Contreras would have started ahead of him in the playoffs, hot hand or not. You bring your ACE to the table. Technically we dont have an ACE, which actually makes us better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(longshot7 @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 03:40 PM) Loaiza was that year. so let me get this argument right - you're saying the best pitcher on the best team in baseball isn't an ace? Does that make any sense? How do you define Ace? Is Mark a shutdown pitcher? No, he isnt. Johan Santana is a shutdown pitcher, an Ace. Mark can have games where he shuts down the opposition, for sure, but pitchers like Santana, Pedro, Schilling(when healthy), Halladay, they will shut you down just about every time. I love Mark, and he is the Ace of our staff(meaning that he is our number 1), but he isnt an Ace pitcher. The closest we have to that is probably Contreras, if he can carry on his performance from last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bartman's my idol Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 You are high. Johan Santana is easily the best pitcher in baseball right now. Rich Harden? Jake Peavy? Buehrle is damn good but come on. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What have they done? Won? MB was (is) the best starter on the best starting staff in MLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 What have they done? Won? MB was (is) the best starter on the best starting staff in MLB. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What does that matter? Paul Konerko was the best hitter on the best team in the MLB last season. Does that mean he was a better first baseman than Albert Pujols or Derrek Lee? Nope. A team wins, not just one player. You can't hold it against true aces on other teams for their teams not winning anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(Steve Bartman's my idol @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 03:01 PM) What have they done? Won? MB was (is) the best starter on the best starting staff in MLB. Well Johan Santana DID win a Cy Young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(quickman @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 10:12 AM) Sometimes its futal to reply, its like arguing with my 9 year old. All emotion, no sense. Do people get sleep or do they stay up at night worried if Buerhle will be here in 2008. Uh.. no. Arguing with your 9 year old would be much more productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 QUOTE(Steve Bartman's my idol @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 03:01 PM) MB was (is) the best starter on the best starting staff in MLB. Baseball's a team sport/effort... no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBuehrle_TheAce Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 for all of you who r bagging on me, it is completely pointless and counter productive. on to my further opinion, mark buehrle is an ace. you dont have to shut out the opponenent, strike out 15 batters and allow only 2 hits every game to be an ace. you have to simply win. win and make it look easy. buehrle does that, AND he has good/spectacular (at times) numbers. i dont beleive he is better than santana, cuz he isnt. but MB wins, and he does it quick, and makes it look easy. and i agree he is the best starter on the best staff in baseball, all our other pitchers try to out do him, the competition is excellent for us. but on the other hand, we have a staff full of guys who can shut down the opponenent, and win 20 games, i think they all have that potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 QUOTE(Steve Bartman's my idol @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 03:01 PM) What have they done? Won? MB was (is) the best starter on the best starting staff in MLB. Being the best starter on arguably the best staff in baseball does not make you the best starter in baseball, it makes you the best of a collection of very good starting pitchers. The fact that the team that Mark Buehrle was on won the world series does not in any way, shape or form mean that he is better than any top tier pitcher who's team has not won anything. Johan Santana may not have won a world series yet but he's better right than Mark Buehrle ever will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 04:27 PM) Johan Santana may not have won a world series yet but he's better right than Mark Buehrle ever will be. He's better than MB thus far...but I wouldn't put it out of the question for MB to take that last step. He had a great year last year despite having a couple of really bad months...including 1 part where I'm still convinced he was slowing up his delivery and tipping his changeup. He gave up something like 4 runs in the entire month of June last year. It'll take a decent step upwards by Buehrle to pass Santana, but having watched Mark since he came up I wouldn't put it past him. I won't say it's likely, but it's certainly not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 06:31 PM) He's better than MB thus far...but I wouldn't put it out of the question for MB to take that last step. He had a great year last year despite having a couple of really bad months...including 1 part where I'm still convinced he was slowing up his delivery and tipping his changeup. He gave up something like 4 runs in the entire month of June last year. It'll take a decent step upwards by Buehrle to pass Santana, but having watched Mark since he came up I wouldn't put it past him. I won't say it's likely, but it's certainly not impossible. I see Mark outlasting Santana over the course of their careers, Mark and Johan were born 10 days apart in 1979, yet Mark already has 172 career GS compared to Johan's 108. Mark just strikes me as the type of pitcher who will have an extremely long career and compile some great stats through his eventual dominance and through longevity. Santana has better stuff than Mark and has been more dominant over the period of time that both have been in the league, yet the way I've seen Mark pitch over his career in games such as the D-Rays one at home a few years ago, the amazing Indians game at Jacobs field two years ago, the Seattle game at home last year and the playoffs show me that he has the ability in him to become a pitcher close to Santana's stature. Mark IMO will be on more winning teams and see the playoffs more often than Santana but as long as both are in the league and healthy, I just don't see him passing Johan up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(Steve Bartman's my idol @ Jan 25, 2006 -> 04:01 PM) What have they done? Won? MB was (is) the best starter on the best starting staff in MLB. You are kidding me right? Look at the list of pitchers that you said MB was better than. The Pitchers I was comparing him to were Carpenter, Prior or Zambrano, Clemens (if he comes back) or Andy P, Jake Peavy, Pedro, Smoltz, Dontrelle, Halladay, Randy Johnson, Rich Harden or Barry Zito, Johan Santana. What have they won? Andy Petitte (4) Randy Johnson(1) Pedro Martinez(1) John Smoltz(1) Dontrelle Willis(1) Thats an 8 combined world series championships right there, if I did my math correctly. And I havent even listed their combined playoff and World Series appearances Now lets look at the Cy Youngs Randy Johnson (5) Pedro Martinez(3) Johan Santana(1) John Smoltz(1) Barry Zito(1) Thats a combined 11 Cy Youngs. But sure, what have they won? edit: ooops, looks like I forgot to add Roger Clemens to that list. Well, add another 7 Cy Youngs to the list, and an additional World Series won. Edited January 26, 2006 by kyyle23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bartman's my idol Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 (edited) Peavy...no rings Zambrano...no rings Carpenter...no rings Zito...no rings Santana...no rings Prior...no rings Halliday...no rings Harden...no rings Total...NO RINGS! Edited January 26, 2006 by Steve Bartman's my idol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 QUOTE(Steve Bartman's my idol @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 02:46 PM) Peavy...no rings Zambrano...no rings Carpenter...no rings Zito...no rings Santana...no rings Prior...no rings Halliday...no rings Harden...no rings Total...NO RINGS! That is a woeful argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Peavy...no rings Zambrano...no rings Carpenter...no rings Zito...no rings Santana...no rings Prior...no rings Halliday...no rings Harden...no rings Total...NO RINGS! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This argument is so lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin57 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 It seems like there's a clear divide in opinion over what constitutes an "ace." People cite different stats and perspectives to bolster their point of view, but until and unless there's agreement over what makes an ace an ace, we'll be spinning our wheels. For instance, I would look at "workhorse quality" factors (e.g., how many innings pitched with good/excellent quality outings). Given how so many rising stars peter out or get injured, having a guy you can rely on week after week is of paramount importance; however, I understand and appreciate other pitching stats that would define an ace. BTW, I'm not saying that our "goal" should be to come to some agreement on defining an "ace" pitcher...probably not possible...but just describing what I see as the point we're stuck on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bartman's my idol Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 That is a woeful argument. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Baseball is about winning WHEN IT COUNTS! For example, Clemens dominated in the regular season last year...what happened to him in the WS? What happened to Pettitte? Prior folded in 2003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 If by ace you mean best pitcher in our rotation, then Buehrle is our ace. If by ace you mean a dominating shutdown pitcher, then Buehrle is NOT an ace. Johan Santana is a dominating shutdown pitcher. Buehrle gives up far too many hits, doesn't strike out enough batters, and depends far too much on the defense playing behind him. Buehrle is a great pitcher and a massive workhorse but he definately isn't in Santana's league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bartman's my idol Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 IMO...IF I needed a pitcher to go out and win me a Game 7, out of all the guys you listed, I'd go with Buehrle. He's got brass balls and ice water coursing through his veins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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