This is totally asinine.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/...p.ap/index.html

 

Yeah, the Mexican government is really doing its part to help secure the border.

 

 

Frankly Im sick of the Mexican government and groups within the United States helping these people commit the crime of illegally crossing the border.

 

 

-I think we need a wall along our Southern border similar to the wall Isreal is building and use units of the National Guard of the affected states on a rotating basis to augment the Border Patrol.

 

-Additionally, we need to end any and all foregin aid we give to Mexico until they take serious action to stop this.

 

-Also, the FBI should move in and close down any groups who aid these people. They are aiding and abetting in the commission of a crime. That is illegal for those who didn't already know. Raid their offices, shut down their operations and throw their members in jail.

 

 

I dont have a problem with Mexicans coming here to do certain jobs that nobody else wants but there has to be control. There has to be a way to know whos coming and going. This is an open and festering hole in our national security and its gotta get fixed......you know...like yesterday.

[Texsox]

The comparison is giving clean needles to addicts to save lives.

 

We also need to clean up the drug usage problem in the US so Mexico isn't spending so much of their GNP on trying to stop South American drug dealers from getting to their customers in the United States.

[NorthSideSox72]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/...p.ap/index.html

 

Yeah,  the Mexican government is really doing its part to help secure the border.

Frankly Im sick of the Mexican government and groups within the United States helping these people commit the crime of illegally crossing the border. 

-I think we need a wall along our Southern border similar to the wall Isreal is building and use units of the National Guard of the affected states on a rotating basis to augment the Border Patrol.

 

-Additionally, we need to end any and all foregin aid we give to Mexico until they take serious action to stop this. 

 

-Also, the FBI should move in and close down any groups who aid these people.  They are aiding and abetting in the commission of a crime.  That is illegal for those who didn't already know.  Raid their offices, shut down their operations and throw their members in jail.

I dont have a problem with Mexicans coming here to do certain jobs that nobody else wants but there has to be control.  There has to be a way to know whos coming and going.  This is an open and festering hole in our national security and its gotta get fixed......you know...like yesterday.

 

Just wanted to add a thought to this topic of discussion...

 

I agree with Nuke in most of what he says. I do believe the border should be much more actively patrolled, possibly by Guard units. I also agree that we should cut aid to Mexico, to a certain extent, until they are willing to help with the problem. And I wish the FBI or Border Patrol would do more on our side as well, but I think they are probably massively understaffed and unable to do so.

 

What I do not agree with is the physical wall, except in urban areas, and I'll tell you why: not all border crossing is human. I know, not something people often consider here, but the reality is that there are important ecological bridges that straddle the US/Mexico border, particularly in NM and AZ, which would be seriously negatively effected by a large, hardened wall. There are endangered species that will be further endangered, and any hope of continued recovery of some of those ecosystems will be quashed.

 

Rightly, you might ask, then what's your suggestion? My suggestion is (in addition to all the points where I agreed with Nuke) is technology. Deploy sensor arrays and aircraft patrols using FLIR along those remote border areas. That way, patrols can be properly informed and dispatched, with less need for a physical barrier. There can also be motion-sensitive cameras. All these devices also have the secondary benefit of providing biologists with data as well.

[Texsox]

What first has to be answered is how we will feed ourselves without the use of immigrant labor. Learn about the life of an illegal, migrant farm worker. Figure out who will work in an area for two weeks, them move on, and follow the crops north and south for $5 per hour.

 

What happens next, is farmers will have to pay higher and higher prices to get their crops picked and processed. When US grow food is too costly, consumers have proven they will buy the cheaper produce, then we will import even more food from outside the US. Currently, we cannot feed ourselves with 100% US produced food, our dependency will get even worse. You think dependency on foreign oil sucks, what will we do when we have to import 50% of our food?

 

There have been more terrorist attacks committed in this country by Americans than Mexicans.

 

Cut off aid to Mexico will decrease their standard of living and force more humans north, and the Mexico government will have less money to fight the problem and more reasons not to. People are risking their lives, literally, to bus your tables, pick your tomotoes, cut your beef, and clean your mess. Figure out who is going to do those jobs, then secure the border.

[NorthSideSox72]

What first has to be answered is how we will feed ourselves without the use of immigrant labor. Learn about the life of an illegal, migrant farm worker. Figure out who will work in an area for two weeks, them move on, and follow the crops north and south for $5 per hour.

 

What happens next, is farmers will have to pay higher and higher prices to get their crops picked and processed. When US grow food is too costly, consumers have proven they will buy the cheaper produce, then we will import even more food from outside the US. Currently, we cannot feed ourselves with 100% US produced food, our dependency will get even worse. You think dependency on foreign oil sucks, what will we do when we have to import 50% of our food?

 

There have been more terrorist attacks committed in this country by Americans than Mexicans.

 

Cut off aid to Mexico will decrease their standard of living and force more humans north, and the Mexico government will have less money to fight the problem and more reasons not to. People are risking their lives, literally, to bus your tables, pick your tomotoes, cut your beef, and clean your mess. Figure out who is going to do those jobs, then secure the border.

 

You seem to have made an assumed bridge between securing the border and preventing immigration. I am not suggesting that at all (not sure about Nuke). If the economic factors dictate that the country can handle (or needs) X number of unskilled labor in the work force, then allow for more visas. That's the way the system should work. That AND a secure border is a much better solution for many reasons than a porous border and undocumented, inhumanely treated workers, and hundreds of dead bodies along the border.

[southsider2k5]

I would like to know why Mexico has the money to fund these kind of programs, when they could be using these same pesos to improve the life of people IN Mexico so that they won't feel the desparate need to risk their lives coming to the US in the first place? Instead of developing their own peoples well-being, the programs under Vincente Fox seem to be more interested in turning Mexico into some sort of a minor league feeder system for the US.

[Texsox]

You seem to have made an assumed bridge between securing the border and preventing immigration.  I am not suggesting that at all (not sure about Nuke).  If the economic factors dictate that the country can handle (or needs) X number of unskilled labor in the work force, then allow for more visas.  That's the way the system should work.  That AND a secure border is a much better solution for many reasons than a porous border and undocumented, inhumanely treated workers, and hundreds of dead bodies along the border.

 

But so far we have been unwilling to increase those Visas. When Bush suggested a guest worker program, he was slammed by everyone from Rush to the Unions. Whenever there is a general amnesty, again, the President gets slammed.

 

BTW, the highest percentage of aid we give Mexico is for drug enforcement. We are asking Mexico to stop dealers from getting to their customers in the US. If the US didn't have a usage problem, Mexico wouldn't have a dealer problem. How will cutting their aid help?

[Texsox]

BTW, the 9/11 Terrorists came in through Canada, why aren't we discussing a wall across the Canadian border?

[NorthSideSox72]

But so far we have been unwilling to increase those Visas. When Bush suggested a guest worker program, he was slammed by everyone from Rush to the Unions. Whenever there is a general amnesty, again, the President gets slammed.

 

BTW, the highest percentage of aid we give Mexico is for drug enforcement. We are asking Mexico to stop dealers from getting to their customers in the US. If the US didn't have a usage problem, Mexico wouldn't have a dealer problem. How will cutting their aid help?

 

Want my serious suggestion?

 

Legalize marijuana, regulate it (self-funded by stamp tax), and use the funds previously used for enforcement of marijuana laws to aid the US, Mexican and central/south american governments to combat problems with drugs that are actually dangerous (cocaine, heroin, meth, etc.). Also, Mexico should be helped to aid the profound poverty in their border and near-border cities.

[Flash Tizzle]

BTW, the 9/11 Terrorists came in through Canada, why aren't we discussing a wall across the Canadian border?

 

Illegally?

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought all those involved traveled legitimately through U.S. Customs on student/work Visas.

[NorthSideSox72]

BTW, the 9/11 Terrorists came in through Canada, why aren't we discussing a wall across the Canadian border?

 

Excellent question, and I have a personal experience to share on that.

 

First, though, I'l reiterate that I wouldn't suggest a wall there either.

 

But as for the Canadian border... Since I was a kid, I have been going on canoeing trips to Quetico and the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, which straddle the MN/Ontario border. It used to be that you could put in on the American side, paddle up to a border station (there were 3, stretched out over about 100 miles of watery borderland wilderness), check in, and be on your merry way. Same worked in reverse. I always thought, you know, one could paddle across that border any time of day or night with little or no chance of ever being noticed, let alone caught.

 

Well, now the rules have changed. In order to cross that border in the wilderness, you have to file with Canadian customs ahead of time for a "Remote Border Area Crossing Visa". You have to show names and info on all crossers, passport image and data, etc. Then you get a one year permit to cross in the backcountry, if they approve your application. If you get caught on one side or the other without the permit (Rangers patrol the area more aggresively now), you get arrested.

 

Just a little glimpse into things on that border.

[Kyyle23]

building a wall does nothing but give the immigrants somethign else to climb over. Its a waste of time, money and manpower. There are so many things that could be done besides building a wall. But something does have to be done, because it is getting silly. Last night I watched Dennis Millers new stand up routine on HBO, and he said that if you go watch the border at night with night vision goggles it looks like the beginning of the Boston Marathon(lol).

[sox4lifeinPA]

I think Nukecleveland needs to change his name to NukeMexico...

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Im not for cutting off immigration as Tex suggests but rather to control it. As long as we know whos coming in and going out then Im ok with it. We cant, however, have people running willy nilly across the open border as is the case now.

[Texsox]

Im not for cutting off immigration as Tex suggests but rather to control it.  As long as we know whos coming in and going out then Im ok with it.  We cant, however, have people running willy nilly across the open border as is the case now.

 

And I agree with Nuke except fix the labor problems first, stop the inequities between countries in immigration (any Cuban reaching the beach gets in for example), before we hurt ourselves by blocking all immigration.

 

The dependency on foreign food gets no thought in this country. That is scary.

[YASNY]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/...p.ap/index.html

 

Yeah,  the Mexican government is really doing its part to help secure the border.

Frankly Im sick of the Mexican government and groups within the United States helping these people commit the crime of illegally crossing the border. 

-I think we need a wall along our Southern border similar to the wall Isreal is building and use units of the National Guard of the affected states on a rotating basis to augment the Border Patrol.

 

-Additionally, we need to end any and all foregin aid we give to Mexico until they take serious action to stop this. 

 

-Also, the FBI should move in and close down any groups who aid these people.  They are aiding and abetting in the commission of a crime.  That is illegal for those who didn't already know.  Raid their offices, shut down their operations and throw their members in jail.

I dont have a problem with Mexicans coming here to do certain jobs that nobody else wants but there has to be control.  There has to be a way to know whos coming and going.  This is an open and festering hole in our national security and its gotta get fixed......you know...like yesterday.

 

Seems that this part gets ignored. Whodathunkit?

[Balta1701]

I would like to know why Mexico has the money to fund these kind of programs, when they could be using these same pesos to improve the life of people IN Mexico so that they won't feel the desparate need to risk their lives coming to the US in the first place?  Instead of developing their own peoples well-being, the programs under Vincente Fox seem to be more interested in turning Mexico into some sort of a minor league feeder system for the US.

The answer to that I think is quite obvious...a significant amount of money comes into Mexico through the fact that people do cross the U.S. border, either find jobs or occasionally sell drugs or commit a crime...and then send a significant fraction of the profits back across the border through banks which allow easy money transfers to Mexico. These sort of border crossings pump a lot of cash into Mexico's economy, cash which then recirculates as those families spend it on food, etc.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

The answer to that I think is quite obvious...a significant amount of money comes into Mexico through the fact that people do cross the U.S. border, either find jobs or occasionally sell drugs or commit a crime...and then send a significant fraction of the profits back across the border through banks which allow easy money transfers to Mexico.  These sort of border crossings pump a lot of cash into Mexico's economy, cash which then recirculates as those families spend it on food, etc.

 

 

Not to mention the fact that the US taxpayer is paying to educate the children of illegals as well as paying for their health care. Those 2 alone are enough to offset the positive econoic impact of their presence several times over.

[Balta1701]

Not to mention the fact that the US taxpayer is paying to educate the children of illegals as well as paying for their health care.  Those 2 alone are enough to offset the positive econoic impact of their presence several times over.

But of course, you're missing the key point...it's a very positive impact to the Walmart and the rich celebrity who can employ them...it's negative to everyone else...but since the government still refuses to provide actual strong penalties to the folks who do employ them (except denying them high-level cabinet posts), there's no reason for a business owner not to take advantage of the situation.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

But of course, you're missing the key point...it's a very positive impact to the Walmart and the rich celebrity who can employ them...it's negative to everyone else...but since the government still refuses to provide actual strong penalties to the folks who do employ them (except denying them high-level cabinet posts), there's no reason for a business owner not to take advantage of the situation.

 

 

Thats why I like that new immigration law thats working its way through Congress right now. It would impose stiff fines against businesses who hire illegals.

[Cknolls]

The answer to that I think is quite obvious...a significant amount of money comes into Mexico through the fact that people do cross the U.S. border, either find jobs or occasionally sell drugs or commit a crime...and then send a significant fraction of the profits back across the border through banks which allow easy money transfers to Mexico.  These sort of border crossings pump a lot of cash into Mexico's economy, cash which then recirculates as those families spend it on food, etc.

 

Why don't we tax these bastards on this money?

 

If the banks don't comply, revoke their charters.

[southsider2k5]

Why don't we tax these bastards on this money?

 

If the banks don't comply, revoke their charters.

 

Double taxation?

[Balta1701]

Why don't we tax these bastards on this money?

 

If the banks don't comply, revoke their charters.

Dude...if you think the banks are the big problem...you're aiming your gun in the wrong spot.

 

A few months ago Wal-Mart came to a settlement with the U.S. government for $11 million for using illegal immigrants as employees in like a couple dozen states. First of all...that number is almost certainly a pittance compared to how much the company made by using those immigrants as workers...but more importantly...the settlement, agreed to by the department of justice, required that the Feds give Walmart a 15 day official advance notice before any further inspections of their working conditions would take place.

 

Yes, read that again..it's true. If I want to check to see if a Wal-mart is filling 1/2 of its workforce with illegal immigrants...I have to give official notice to the store and to Bentonville that I'm going to do the inspection, then wait 15 days, then go in. Now, can anyone out there figure out why exactly a company might want that 15 days?

 

As far as I'm concerned, the DOJ agreed to a settlement which made it impossible for Walmart to ever be fined for using an illegal immigrant, child laborer, or laborer without overtime/lunchbreaks again.

[Texsox]

Thats why I like that new immigration law thats working its way through Congress right now.  It would impose stiff fines against businesses who hire illegals.

 

Most businesses that hire illegals would hire legal workers if they were available and willing to work. What we need, is what Bush proposed, a guest worker program. There are not enough Americans willing to do the manual labor jobs in the US. As Bush supporters have pointed out, our unemployment rate hovers at 5% and under. So it doesn't appear as if these workers are displacing anyone. Check http://themonitor.com a border newspaper and see all the job offers for migrant labor and meat processing plants.

 

And finally, there are sizable communties of retired Americans liuving in Mexico. They take their Social Security checks and adios across the border for sun, surf, and cheaper living. So illegals aren't the only ones taking US dollars and spending them abroad. We also allow stock ownership overseas, so even more money is flowing out of the country. Which is worse, illegals sending $100 south or Nissan America sending their profits to Japan?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Most businesses that hire illegals would hire legal workers if they were available and willing to work. What we need, is what Bush proposed, a guest worker program. There are not enough Americans willing to do the manual labor jobs in the US. As Bush supporters have pointed out, our unemployment rate hovers at 5% and under. So it doesn't appear as if these workers are displacing anyone. Check http://themonitor.com a border newspaper and see all the job offers for migrant labor and meat processing plants.

 

And finally, there are sizable communties of retired Americans liuving in Mexico. They take their Social Security checks and adios across the border for sun, surf, and cheaper living. So illegals aren't the only ones taking US dollars and spending them abroad. We also allow stock ownership overseas, so even more money is flowing out of the country. Which is worse, illegals sending $100 south or Nissan America sending their profits to Japan?

 

 

Funny you should mention Nissan America when the Japanese automakers are creating jobs here in the US while the "US" automakers are taking jobs to Canada and Mexico.