Minaya and Mets seeking Contreras

[Dam8610]

One of the nice things about where we're at right now is that we really don't NEED to trade Jose...we have ourselves sitting in a position of luxury.  We can just go with 6 starters on the roster and genuinely make a run at a world series...and whether or not you agree with it, the team will be in good shape.  In other words...KW can actually sit around waiting to be completely blown away by an offer for the guy, because the need to trade him is not garganutan.  I don't think he'd be traded straight up for Milledge just for that reason.  You want him, you've got to earn him.

 

That was basically my point. There's no need to trade Jose, and his value is very high at the moment (More than a 21 YO prospect who has the potential to be great but hasn't done anything beyond AA IMO).

[Felix]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/players/...ching&year=2003

 

58.2 IP as a starter in 2003

13.1 IP as a reliever in 2003

I know, I'm just wondering how someone can say he had a great year if he only pitched in 71 innings. As you pointed out, its not like they were 71 innings of relief either. How can you judge how good a year a player had on half a year of baseball?

[GoodAsGould]

I know, I'm just wondering how someone can say he had a great year if he only pitched in 71 innings.  As you pointed out, its not like they were 71 innings of relief either.  How can you judge how good a year a player had on half a year of baseball?

 

Ok I didnt say great... there is a difference between good and great so get that right first....... and the point is when he pitched he was effective and above avg. which makes it good. Dont remember exactly why he didnt pitch more if injury or some other matter but he was good when he pitched in 03.

[Chisoxfn]

Milledge for Contreras doesn't help the White Sox in 2006, plus remember KW saying he wants pitching back if he deals Contreras.

Ya, I'll pass on this.

[Felix]

Ok I didnt say great... there is a difference between good and great so get that right first....... and the point is when he pitched he was effective and above avg. which makes  it good.  Dont remember exactly why he didnt pitch more if injury or some other matter but he was good when he pitched in 03.

He might have put up good numbers, but he didnt have a good year because he didn't even pitch for the whole year. 71 innings is a half year.. and thats pushing it (its more like a third of a year, but who cares). So to say he had 2 good years and 1 bad year just doesnt work.

 

I'd say he had 1 good year (2003 + second half of 2005) while having one complete suckage year (2004) and being average in half of a year (first half 2005).

 

Just my opinion, but that doesn't add up to ace in my book, and to get a top 10 prospect in the MLB for him would be a steal, especially because Contreras is a FA after this year, and when he walks, we get nothing.

[SSH2005]

Ya, I'll pass on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess I just fear losing Contreras for nothing after 2006 and I will feel worse if he has a bad season. If we at least got a couple draft picks for losing him to free agency, it wouldn't be so bad.

[DBAHO]

Some good discussion going on here. My thoughts are this;

 

I don't believe Milledge is purely a product of East Coast Hype. I think he'll be better then Reed (who I still think will be a good player), plus he's got that 5 tool potential.

 

However, at the moment, KW's not going to trade JC for LM straight up. Bringing Aaron Heilman into the equation, does make it more interesting though. That way we'll still have 6 pitchers who are able to start, and you can either B-Mac or Heilman into the rotation.

 

Doing this, saves payroll, and allows for KW to make a big mid - season trade.

 

I was one of JC's biggest backers during 2005, and I believe he's an excellent pitcher. That said, the way things have played, can the Sox afford to let him go for nothing, if we don't end up winning the world series.

[jphat007]

I guess I just fear losing Contreras for nothing after 2006 and I will feel worse if he has a bad season.  If we at least got a couple draft picks for losing him to free agency, it wouldn't be so bad.

 

And you'd feel even worse if we traded him, he was awesome for the rest of the year and his career, Milledge wasn't anything special, and somebody got hurt. Even if 1 or 2 of those thigns happen it could screw us over. Kenny's job is to win the WS in the current year first and prepare for the future second.

 

Trading Contreras for Milledge does not put us in a better position this year which is why KW wouldn't and won't do it.

[jphat007]

Some good discussion going on here. My thoughts are this;

 

I don't believe Milledge is purely a product of East Coast Hype. I think he'll be better then Reed (who I still think will be a good player), plus he's got that 5 tool potential.

 

However, at the moment, KW's not going to trade JC for LM straight up. Bringing Aaron Heilman into the equation, does make it more interesting though. That way we'll still have 6 pitchers who are able to start, and you can either B-Mac or Heilman into the rotation.

 

Doing this, saves payroll, and allows for KW to make a big mid - season trade.

 

I was one of JC's biggest backers during 2005, and I believe he's an excellent pitcher. That said, the way things have played, can the Sox afford to let him go for nothing, if we don't end up winning the world series.

 

I don't think you can risk it and give up your best chance for a WS because you (*the team) are scared of what might happen in the future.

[SSH2005]

Maybe we could get Royce Ring back. We still need a lefty, haha.

[Dick Allen]

Why is it that a lot of people on this board say the White Sox can't afford to let Contreras go for nothing? You get his services in 2006. The other thread had post after post calling Frank Thomas the greatest player in team history. He was let go for nothing, how come it wasn't necessary to trade him last offseason?

[Felix]

Why is it that a lot of people on this board say the White Sox can't afford to let Contreras go for nothing? You get his services in 2006.

His services for 2006 might not be good, and trading him now, when his trade value is at an all-time high, can net the White Sox a quality group of prospects or players in return.

 

The other thread had post after post calling Frank Thomas the greatest player in team history. He was let go for nothing, how come it wasn't necessary to trade him last offseason?

How many teams would give something of value up for an aging injury prone DH?

[Dam8610]

Why is it that a lot of people on this board say the White Sox can't afford to let Contreras go for nothing? You get his services in 2006. The other thread had post after post calling Frank Thomas the greatest player in team history. He was let go for nothing, how come it wasn't necessary to trade him last offseason?

 

Because his value was extremely low. At that point, it was better to take the gamble that he'd be productive than to trade him for basically nothing.

[SSH2005]

Why is it that a lot of people on this board say the White Sox can't afford to let Contreras go for nothing? You get his services in 2006. The other thread had post after post calling Frank Thomas the greatest player in team history. He was let go for nothing, how come it wasn't necessary to trade him last offseason?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Frank Thomas has been injury-plagued and has only played in 108 games (345 AB's) over the past 2 seasons. Losing him isn't a big blow because he hasn't contributed much due to injuries. Letting a quality starter go after one season and getting nothing in return would hurt much more. Frank Thomas had absolutely zero trade value the past couple seasons. Right now, Contreras has a lot of trade value.

Edited January 27, 2006 by SSH2005

[Dick Allen]

So basically the argument is that Contreras won't be any good in 2006. I disagree, and will remind people that pitching wins. The gamble would be trading a guy who was your best pitcher the second half of a season you won the WS and was the starting pitcher for the first game in each postseason series for a prospect who probably wouldn't even be on your major league team in 2006. From July on he was better than Buerhle, better than Garland, better than Garcia and better than Vazquez. Considering the $95 million investment JR has in this year's team, trading Contreras for a prospect is insane.

[Dick Allen]

Frank Thomas has been injury-plagued and has only played in 108 games (345 AB's) over the past 2 seasons.  Losing him isn't a big blow because he hasn't contributed much due to injuries.  Letting a quality starter go after one season and getting nothing in return would hurt much more.

You are not getting nothing in return. You get his 2006 season. If it leads you to the world championship, it is better than getting any organizations top 5 prospects. What if Konerko would have signed with the Angels? Would that have meant the Sox should have traded him last winter? Give me a break.

[KWs OK for Me]

[Allen,Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:14 PM]

Why is it that a lot of people on this board say the White Sox can't afford to let Contreras go for nothing? You get his services in 2006. The other thread had post after post calling Frank Thomas the greatest player in team history. He was let go for nothing, how come it wasn't necessary to trade him last offseason?

&

[Felix]

So basically the argument is that Contreras won't be any good in 2006. I disagree, and will remind people that pitching wins. The gamble would be trading a guy who was your best pitcher the second half of a season you won the WS and was the starting pitcher for the first game in each postseason series for a prospect who probably wouldn't even be on your major league team in 2006. From July on he was better than Buerhle, better than Garland, better than Garcia and better than Vazquez.  Considering the $95 million investment JR has in this year's team, trading Contreras for a prospect is insane.

I know pitching wins, and I agree. However I think that Brandon McCarthy can do what Contreras will do in 2006, so I'm not too worried about that. And Milledge isn't just a prospect, he's one of the best prospects in the game..

[SSH2005]

So basically the argument is that Contreras won't be any good in 2006. I disagree, and will remind people that pitching wins. The gamble would be trading a guy who was your best pitcher the second half of a season you won the WS and was the starting pitcher for the first game in each postseason series for a prospect who probably wouldn't even be on your major league team in 2006. From July on he was better than Buerhle, better than Garland, better than Garcia and better than Vazquez.  Considering the $95 million investment JR has in this year's team, trading Contreras for a prospect is insane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not my argument. I think Contreras can be a stud next season but I also think it's possible that he isn't very good. My argument is that I don't won't to lose him after 2006 and get nothing in return. If we actually received draft picks for losing him to free agency, I wouldn't mind as much. But Contreras has the same contract as Hideki Matsui did. There's no compensation if we lose him to free agency.

[SSH2005]

You are not getting nothing in return. You get his 2006 season. If it leads you to the world championship, it is better than getting any organizations top 5 prospects. What if Konerko would have signed with the Angels? Would that have meant the Sox should have traded him last winter? Give me a break.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you won't feel bad if we keep Contreras, fail to win another World Series or even make the playoffs, and Contreras goes on to sign elsewhere once the season is over? I know it's a risk to trade Contreras but come on...

[Dick Allen]

That's not my argument.  I think Contreras can be a stud next season but I also think it's possible that he isn't very good.  My argument is that I don't won't to lose him after 2006 and get nothing in return.  If we actually received draft picks for losing him to free agency, I wouldn't mind as much.  But Contreras has the same contract as Hideki Matsui did.  There's no compensation if we lose him to free agency.

And if he goes somewhere else, the money the organization has put aside to sign him will be available for other players, whether in trade or free agents, and there are some pretty good looking free agents next season.

[Dick Allen]

So you won't feel bad if we keep Contreras, fail to win another World Series or even make the playoffs, and Contreras goes on to sign elsewhere once the season is over?  I know it's a risk to trade Contreras but come on...

No I wouldn't feel bad. That is how organizations that are going for it operate.

[jphat007]

And if he goes somewhere else, the money the organization has put aside to sign him will be available for other players, whether in trade or free agents, and there are some pretty good looking free agents next season.

 

Exactly. It seems rather obvious to me and you, and KW for that matter. Not saying that the others are wrong, but I get the feeling for some reason that people around here value players and prospects in other organizations much more than ours.

 

It's really rather simple. Contreras has some of the best stuff in the league. Probably second only to Santana (and maybe Hernandez). All he needed was some confidence and a couple of mechanical fixes. He recieved both fo that last year. He now would have more confidence than any other time in his career to go along with that great stuff. WHY would he go back to his form in NYY when he was tiping pitches and depressed. There is just nothing to support that. You don't give up 1 year of a player that will likely be a Top 5 of 10 pitcher in a year because you don't want to get anything in return. If that was the way general managers worked, you'd be trading everyone for prospects all the time and would never get close to a championship.

 

There is no reason to think Contreras will revert to his old form. I mean, he freaking pitched in the first game of every playoff series. He is a different pitcher.

[SSH2005]

Exactly. It seems rather obvious to me and you, and KW for that matter. Not saying that the others are wrong, but I get the feeling for some reason that people around here value players and prospects in other organizations much more than ours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If it is not even in KW's head to even think of trading Contreras, why did he say the following instead of saying, "I will not trade Jose Contreras, period."?

 

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/whitesox.asp?id=147020

If anybody out there thinks we’re going to move one of our starting pitchers for less than equal value — for anything less than a guy that can get up on the mound and give us the same results — they’re barking up the wrong tree.

That doesn't sound like KW is completely against trading Contreras. That sounds to me like a GM who is talking up the bids for his pitcher. If KW really wasn't willing to trade Contreras, wouldn't he say that Jose is offlimits?

 

It's really rather simple. Contreras has some of the best stuff in the league. Probably second only to Santana (and maybe Hernandez). All he needed was some confidence and a couple of mechanical fixes. He recieved both fo that last year. He now would have more confidence than any other time in his career to go along with that great stuff. WHY would he go back to his form in NYY when he was tiping pitches and depressed. There is just nothing to support that. You don't give up 1 year of a player that will likely be a Top 5 of 10 pitcher in a year because you don't want to get anything in return. If that was the way general managers worked, you'd be trading everyone for prospects all the time and would never get close to a championship.

 

There is no reason to think Contreras will revert to his old form. I mean, he freaking pitched in the first game of every playoff series.  He is a different pitcher.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One reason I could think of is that his buddy El Duque is now gone.

[jphat007]

If it is not even in KW's head to even think of trading Contreras, why did he say the following instead of saying, "I will not trade Jose Contreras, period."?

 

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/whitesox.asp?id=147020

One reason I could think of is that his buddy El Duque is now gone.

 

I thought this was assumed. Of course KW leaves his options open. If the Mets offer Milledge and David Wright he is going to trade for him.

 

But he did say that he will not settle for ANYTHING less than his value, and that doesn't include how many years he is here, and Milledge is not as valuable as Contreras right now.

 

He can give El Duque a call if he is feeling lonely. Iguchi was also sad when we traded Shingo. He was still a similar player for the rest of the year, and Iguchi had NOBODY else close that was really on the team.

Edited January 27, 2006 by jphat007