SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 I thought this was assumed. Of course KW leaves his options open. If the Mets offer Milledge and David Wright he is going to trade for him. But he did say that he will not settle for ANYTHING less than his value, and that doesn't include how many years he is here, and Milledge is not as valuable as Contreras right now. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you don't think that there's a difference in trade value for a pitcher who is under contract for only one season and a pitcher who is under contract for three years for example? Contreras's trade value would be the same if he was under contract for three years instead of only one? If KW is truly thinking that way, he's smoking too much of the wacky tobaccy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:47 PM) So you don't think that there's a difference in trade value for a pitcher who is under contract for only one season and a pitcher who is under contract for three years for example? Contreras's trade value would be the same if he was under contract for three years instead of only one? If KW is truly thinking that way, he's smoking too much of the wacky tobaccy. Of course he thinks about it. But any GM in the league would think about how he could maximize his team to win this year with the talent and situation that we have. Maximizing our chances for a WS this year would not be to trade one of the best pitchers in the league for a player that may or may not be a good player in the league one day. Any GM with KWs resources and situation is thinking about how to win this year unless he gets some incredible offer for Jose. Obviously Jose's trade value would be higher if he was already signed. I thought that was assumed too. That changes nothing in the situation that KW is currently in. Except for the fact that if he was signed, he could ask for a good starting pitcher now AND a great prospect. Most GMs in the upper half of payroll who have a chance of winning the WS don't trade one of hte best pitchers in the league for a player like Milledge. Edited January 27, 2006 by jphat007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Of course he thinks about it. But any GM in the league would think about how he could maximize his team to win this year with the talent and situation that we have. Maximizing our chances for a WS this year would not be to trade one of the best pitchers in the league for a player that may or may not be a good player in the league one day. Any GM with KWs resources and situation is thinking about how to win this year unless he gets some incredible offer for Jose. Obviously Jose's trade value would be higher if he was already signed. I thought that was assumed too. That changes nothing in the situation that KW is currently in. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> KW already traded away a good player to let "a player that may or may not be a good player in the league one day" start in center field. Obviously, he got Thome in return but he's still going with an unproven player in center field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(jphat007 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:53 PM) Most GMs in the upper half of payroll who have a chance of winning the WS don't trade one of hte best pitchers in the league for a player like Milledge. I didn't realize having a spectacular half year made you one of the best pitchers in the league. And Milledge is one of the best prospects in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:56 PM) KW already traded away a good player to let "a player that may or may not be a good player in the league one day" start in center field. Obviously, he got Thome in return but he's still going with an unproven player in center field. LOL. You are comparing Contreras and Rowand. First, one is worth way, way more than than the other. Second, that move improved our team THIS year even if it puts a young player in CF. Those are two totally different situations anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 (edited) LOL. You are comparing Contreras and Rowand. First, one is worth way, way more than than the other. Second, that move improved our team THIS year even if it puts a young player in CF. Those are two totally different situations anyway. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This was how I was comparing them... Proven players: Aaron Rowand Jose Contreras Unproven players: Brian Anderson Lastings Milledge Edited January 27, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:57 PM) I didn't realize having a spectacular half year made you one of the best pitchers in the league. And Milledge is one of the best prospects in the league. LOL. PROSPECT. Which means NOTHING at the big league level. Jose dominated the American freaking league in the playoffs and last year. Milledge was pretty good in AA. How the hell can you compare the two. And yes, Contreras is one of the best pitchers in the league. And if our GM didn't think so he would have already traded him away for something much less. I stated above why there is NO reason to expect him to go back to the way he was at the end of his NY stay. You are LOOKING for a reason for him to struggle if you do that. That is not a smart way to manage a club, and it appears KW agrees with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 LOL. PROSPECT. Which means NOTHING at the big league level. Jose dominated the American freaking league in the playoffs and last year. Milledge was pretty good in AA. How the hell can you compare the two. And yes, Contreras is one of the best pitchers in the league. And if our GM didn't think so he would have already traded him away for something much less. I stated above why there is NO reason to expect him to go back to the way he was at the end of his NY stay. You are LOOKING for a reason for him to struggle if you do that. That is not a smart way to manage a club, and it appears KW agrees with me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> One good half a season and a good postseason does not make Contreras "one of the best pitchers in the league." Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:01 PM) This was how I was comparing them... Great Proven players: Jose Contreras Jim Thome Good Proven players: Aaron Rowand Unproven players: Brian Anderson Lastings Milledge Gio DH It's not close. ANd we traded Rowand to GET another great player. Not get an unproven prospect. We already had that prospect that was going to start soon anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:03 PM) One good half a season and a good postseason does not make Contreras "one of the best pitchers in the league." Sorry. LOL. Any other angles? I've got KW backing my case up (among many others in the game). You have Felix, which is nice. You've gone back for so many angles. Next thing you know you'll be putting words in my mouth again. LOL. Why the hell do so many White Sox fans look for so many flaws in our players. It's hilarious. Edited January 27, 2006 by jphat007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(jphat007 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 08:02 PM) LOL. PROSPECT. Which means NOTHING at the big league level. Hey, believe what you want about prospects. Joe Borchard has the majority of the people here paranoid about prospects, and you need to get over it. And no, this trade doesn't help the White Sox at the major league level, unless you believe McCarthy will do better starting than Contreras will, which is what I do believe. How the hell can you compare the two. And yes, Contreras is one of the best pitchers in the league. And if our GM didn't think so he would have already traded him away for something much less. In 2004, Contreras sucked in New York and Chicago. In the start of 2005, Contreras was average. In the second half of 2005, he was superb. That makes one of the best pitchers in the league? I thought pitchers had to be consistantly good to be one of the best, silly me. I stated above why there is NO reason to expect him to go back to the way he was at the end of his NY stay. He sucked in Chicago too, or did you forget about that? You are LOOKING for a reason for him to struggle if you do that. That is not a smart way to manage a club, and it appears KW agrees with me. How does it appear KW agrees with you? This is the offseason, there is no limit on when the deals can be made. Hell, spring training hasn't even started yet. If a deal with Contreras is being worked on, its going to be worked on for awhile, mainly because it will be a rather big deal for our team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:07 PM) Hey, believe what you want about prospects. Joe Borchard has the majority of the people here paranoid about prospects, and you need to get over it. And no, this trade doesn't help the White Sox at the major league level, unless you believe McCarthy will do better starting than Contreras will, which is what I do believe. In 2004, Contreras sucked in New York and Chicago. In the start of 2005, Contreras was average. In the second half of 2005, he was superb. That makes one of the best pitchers in the league? I thought pitchers had to be consistantly good to be one of the best, silly me. He sucked in Chicago too, or did you forget about that? How does it appear KW agrees with you? This is the offseason, there is no limit on when the deals can be made. Hell, spring training hasn't even started yet. If a deal with Contreras is being worked on, its going to be worked on for awhile, mainly because it will be a rather big deal for our team. If KW trades COntreras for a couple of prospects before the seasons over (barring a callapse midseason) I'll say you were right. BUt I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Further, EVERYBODY agrees that Jose has some of the best stuff in the league. EVERYBODY agreed that all he needed was confidence. Once he got it he was dominanat from there one out. WHy the hell would he lose confidence when it should be the highest of his career right now? Edited January 27, 2006 by jphat007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 LOL. Any other angles? I've got KW backing my case up (among many others in the game). You have Felix, which is nice. You've gone back for so many angles. Next thing you know you'll be putting words in my mouth again. LOL. Why the hell do so many White Sox fans look for so many flaws in our players. It's hilarious. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What is my angle? I just don't think that Contreras is a top pitcher in the league because of one good half season and one good postseason. What in the hell is wrong with that stance? What were you saying about Contreras after 2005 when he finished with a 5.50 ERA on the season? Show me a few years of consistency first and I will agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:11 PM) What is my angle? I just don't think that Contreras is a top pitcher in the league because of one good half season and one good postseason. What in the hell is wrong with that stance? What were you saying about Contreras after 2005 when he finished with a 5.50 ERA on the season? Show me a few years of consistency first and I will agree with you. And you want to trade him for a guy that has NEVER shown ANYTHIGN at the major league level. Meanwhile, Jose showed it on the BIGGEST STAGE that you can show it on. Which is more of a risk? Hmmm. I wonder? Jose has Top 3 stuff. He needed decent confidence. He got it. He was awesome. Why is that so difficult. Edited January 27, 2006 by jphat007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 In 2004, Contreras sucked in New York and Chicago. In the start of 2005, Contreras was average. In the second half of 2005, he was superb. That makes one of the best pitchers in the league? I thought pitchers had to be consistantly good to be one of the best, silly me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:14 PM) LOL. I'm in trouble now. Tons of people in the league think he's a great pitcher now. But you and Felix are telling me otherwise. Man. This is tough one. Who do I trust? Maybe I should just ask you what makes a good pitcher. Cause if its not great stuff, knowledge of where and how to throw it and confidence, I don't know what the hell it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 (edited) And you want to trade him for a guy that has NEVER shown ANYTHIGN at the major league level. Meanwhile, Jose showed it on the BIGGEST STAGE that you can show it on. Which is more of a risk? Hmmm. I wonder? Jose has Top 3 stuff. He needed decent confidence. He got it. He was awesome. Why is that so difficult. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because Contreras was only awesome for approximately 19 starts (15 starts after All-Star break + 4 postseason starts). Sorry, but I want to see more before I dub him "one of the best pitchers in the league." I don't think I'm being unreasonable. Edited January 27, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 LOL. I'm in trouble now. Tons of people in the league think he's a great pitcher now. But you and Felix are telling me otherwise. Man. This is tough one. Who do I trust? Maybe I should just ask you what makes a good pitcher. Cause if its not great stuff, knowledge of where and how to throw it and confidence, I don't know what the hell it is. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Consistency, i.e. more than 19 starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:07 PM) Hey, believe what you want about prospects. Joe Borchard has the majority of the people here paranoid about prospects, and you need to get over it. And no, this trade doesn't help the White Sox at the major league level, unless you believe McCarthy will do better starting than Contreras will, which is what I do believe. In 2004, Contreras sucked in New York and Chicago. In the start of 2005, Contreras was average. In the second half of 2005, he was superb. That makes one of the best pitchers in the league? I thought pitchers had to be consistantly good to be one of the best, silly me. He sucked in Chicago too, or did you forget about that? How does it appear KW agrees with you? This is the offseason, there is no limit on when the deals can be made. Hell, spring training hasn't even started yet. If a deal with Contreras is being worked on, its going to be worked on for awhile, mainly because it will be a rather big deal for our team. But you are advocating trading him for a guy who hasn't batted once in the major leagues. At least Contreras, who was one of the 2 or 3 best pitchers in MLB from July 1st on, and started the first game in all 3 postseason series which netted the White Sox its first World Championship in 88 years has shown he can pitch well in MLB. The guy was pretty good in 2003 with the Yankees. I saw him shut down a pretty good White Sox offense late that year. Even in 2004 when his overall performance wasn't very good, he had some dominating games. It looks like he's got it together now, and should be a dominating pitcher. What happened to all the Don Cooper cures all pitchers anyway? He'll still be here. I am a little worried about the effect of no Duque, but Contreras has had a spotlight on him for a long while before he came to the US, so he should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:17 PM) Because Contreras was only awesome for approximately 19 starts (15 starts after All-Star break + 4 postseason starts). Sorry, but I want to see more before I dub him "one of the best pitchers in the league." I don't think I'm being unreasonable. Thats fine. I'm not trying to change your opinion. You can think what you want. I care much more what scouts and GMs in the league think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(jphat007 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 08:13 PM) Meanwhile, Jose showed it on the BIGGEST STAGE that you can show it on. I'm assuming you are talking about the WS, if not, sorry in advance. He had a 3.86 ERA in his only 2005 WS start. Now, thats a small sample size, yes, but that doesn't look too ace-like. (not to mention his 5.68 ERA in the 2003 WS) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Thats fine. I'm not trying to change your opinion. You can think what you want. I care much more what scouts and GMs in the league think. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Scouts and GM's think that Lastings Milledge will be a good center fielder in the MLB but you don't seem to care much about that. You can't have it both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Its funny because we got both extremes in this little argument..... one side totally undervalueing Contreras and probably overvalueing a prospect although he is a good one... and the other side totally overvalueing Contreras and prob is a bit of a whitesox homer..... because you know we all like to "slurp" our division foes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 08:18 PM) But you are advocating trading him for a guy who hasn't batted once in the major leagues. Yes, because I, unlike most Sox fans on this board, don't hate prospects, and in fact like them, especially ones that are top 10 in the league. The way I see it is we can get 1 year of Contreras or 6+ years of Milledge. Take your pick, I'd take Milledge anyday of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:19 PM) I'm assuming you are talking about the WS, if not, sorry in advance. He had a 3.86 ERA in his only 2005 WS start. Now, thats a small sample size, yes, but that doesn't look too ace-like. (not to mention his 5.68 ERA in the 2003 WS) Wow. Just wow. Number 1 starter in all three series. Shut down Boston in a HUGE game for this team in the postseason, shut down the Angels twice, and 3 in 7 to Houston. You are reaching now. But like I said to SSH, I don't want to change your opinion. I only care about what our front office and pitching staff think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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