Minaya and Mets seeking Contreras

[jphat007]

Scouts and GM's think that Lastings Milledge will be a good center fielder in the MLB but you don't seem to care much about that.  You can't have it both ways.

 

But they KNOW Contreras is a great pitcher in the league.

 

They THINK Milledge will be a good/great player in the league. There is a HUGE difference.

[Felix]

Wow. Just wow. Number 1 starter in all three series. Shut down Boston in a HUGE game for this team in the postseason, shut down the Angels twice, and 3 in 7 to Houston. You are reaching now.

Well, as I said in my post, I was talking about the World Series, you obviously weren't. And by the way, Matt Clement was Boston's #1 starter. Does that mean he was good? No, so pointing out "Number 1 starter in all three series" means nothing.

[Dick Allen]

I'm assuming you are talking about the WS, if not, sorry in advance.  He had a 3.86 ERA in his only 2005 WS start.  Now, thats a small sample size, yes, but that doesn't look too ace-like.  (not to mention his 5.68 ERA in the 2003 WS)

Well then, is Buerhle's 4.91 ERA in the World Series "ace-like"? Maybe the Sox should trade him. Using postseason stats is way too small of a sample size. Barry Bonds would have been run out of baseball before he discovered his mystery cream if postseason stats were the end all. Also, going by what you 2 guys have been saying, shouldn't Jermaine Dye be dealt soon as well? He may have an option for 2007, I'm not sure, but he has had some lean years, and if he has another one, the option won't be picked up and they will lose him for nothing.

[SSH2005]

Yes, because I, unlike most Sox fans on this board, don't hate prospects, and in fact like them, especially ones that are top 10 in the league.

 

The way I see it is we can get 1 year of Contreras or 6+ years of Milledge.  Take your pick, I'd take Milledge anyday of the week.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's my whole argument. I never said that Contreras wouldn't be a stud next season but I'm not so sure he won't be mediocre either. We just don't know because he hasn't shown any consistency yet. My argument is that we will have Contreras for possibly only one year. If we traded him, we could get players in return that we could have for many more years. And Lastings Milledge isn't the only player I am talking about.

[jphat007]

Its funny because we got both extremes in this little argument..... one side totally undervalueing Contreras and probably overvalueing a prospect although he is a good one... and the other side totally overvalueing Contreras and prob is a bit of a whitesox homer..... because you know we all like to "slurp" our division foes.

 

The funny thing is that this thread proves some of my point. People are LOOKING for faults in our players. SEARCHING for reasons that our players might not be as great as they appeared to be last year.

[jphat007]

Well then, is Buerhle's 4.91 ERA in the World Series "ace-like"? Maybe the Sox should trade him. Using postseason stats is way too small of a sample size. Barry Bonds would have been run out of baseball before he discovered his mystery cream if postseason stats were the end all. Also, going by what you 2 guys have been saying, shouldn't Jermaine Dye be dealt soon as well? He may have an option for 2007, I'm not sure, but he has had some lean years, and if he has another one, the option won't be picked up and they will lose him for nothing.

 

Buerhle could be gone in a couple of years. I don't know if we can sign him. Trade him next offseason! Trade him!

[Felix]

But they KNOW Contreras is a great pitcher in the league.

Again, I thought to be great you would have to prove to be sucessful year after year. I guess I'm wrong though.. whoopsie.

 

And this debate is getting pretty pointless. The same thing is being said over and over again, and it all started because the original article said the Mets would probably have to part with Milledge. It didn't even say that Milledge was involved in any potential deal, it just said that he would likely have to be.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, because I, unlike most Sox fans on this board, don't hate prospects, and in fact like them, especially ones that are top 10 in the league.

 

The way I see it is we can get 1 year of Contreras or 6+ years of Milledge.  Take your pick, I'd take Milledge anyday of the week.

Corey Patterson was a top prospect, a can't miss guy. He turned into a guy who usually missed. I like the horse that led the White Sox to the world title.

[Felix]

Corey Patterson was a top prospect, a can't miss guy. He turned into a guy who usually missed. I like the horse that led the White Sox to the world title.

Felix Hernandez was a top prospect. Albert Pujols was a top prospect. Frank Thomas was a top prospect. Whats your point about Corey Patterson?

[Balta1701]

The funny thing is that this thread proves some of my point. People are LOOKING for faults in our players. SEARCHING for reasons that our players might not be as great as they appeared to be last year.

Isn't that something that everyone is doing here though? None of our 6 current starting pitchers have had major injury problems in their pasts that I know about...yet even the people who are advocating holding onto Jose to let him dominate next year will come up with the "What if one of them gets hurt" argument.

[Dick Allen]

Again, I thought to be great you would have to prove to be sucessful year after year.  I guess I'm wrong though.. whoopsie.

 

And this debate is getting pretty pointless.  The same thing is being said over and over again, and it all started because the original article said the Mets would probably have to part with Milledge.  It didn't even say that Milledge was involved in any potential deal, it just said that he would likely have to be.

You're being hypocritical. You want Milledge because you can have him for 6 years and he is predicted to be good. Makes you wonder what the Mets are thinking if they have a superstar in the minors but keep looking for corner outfielders, even considering Sammy Sosa.

[Felix]

Buerhle could be gone in a couple of years. I don't know if we can sign him. Trade him next offseason! Trade him!

Except if Buerhle walks, we get draft picks. If Contreras walks, we get nothing.

[Felix]

You're being hypocritical. You want Milledge because you can have him for 6 years and he is predicted to be good. Makes you wonder what the Mets are thinking if they have a superstar in the minors but keep looking for corner outfielders, even considering Sammy Sosa.

Ever heard of the term plugger? Sammy Sosa isn't the long term answer to their outfield problems, they know that. They are also likely looking at Sosa to get more publicity, and rival the Yankees in terms of popularity in New York.

[SSH2005]

The funny thing is that this thread proves some of my point. People are LOOKING for faults in our players. SEARCHING for reasons that our players might not be as great as they appeared to be last year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or maybe not every poster here thinks that every White Sox player is a stud just because they are on the White Sox. Guys like Podsednik come to mind. There are many good players on the Sox but they aren't all great, even though they won a World Series. There is a reason KW improved our offense afterall.

[jphat007]

Isn't that something that everyone is doing here though?  None of our 6 current starting pitchers have had major injury problems in their pasts that I know about...yet even the people who are advocating holding onto Jose to let him dominate next year will come up with the "What if one of them gets hurt" argument.

 

FG did. Jose did a little bit. Jon and Mark have been horses.

 

But that has nothing to do with ability. THat has to do with luck, conditioning, etc.

[jphat007]

Or maybe not every poster here thinks that every White Sox player is a stud just because they are on the White Sox.  Guys like Podsednik come to mind.  There are many good players on the Sox but they aren't all great, even though they won a World Series.  There is a reason KW improved our offense afterall.

 

Never have I said they are all great.

 

I applauded moving Rowand. I was fine with letting Frank go on. I don't think Pods is great. He is really good though. Especially at leading off.

[SSH2005]

Buerhle could be gone in a couple of years. I don't know if we can sign him. Trade him next offseason! Trade him!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two seasons is twice as many as one. Also, Buehrle has shown much more consistency of being a good pitcher over the years than Contreras. Don't forget that Buehrle is much younger than Contreras. And finally, losing Buehrle to free agency after 2007 would net us a couple draft picks. Losing Contreras to free agency after 2006 won't. Horrible comparison.

Edited January 27, 2006 by SSH2005

[Balta1701]

Except if Buerhle walks, we get draft picks.  If Contreras walks, we get nothing.

Mark Buehrle will receive a new contract next offseason giving him Jose Contreras's $8 million or so as additional salary. I hope and pray, at least.

 

The one thing I do like about picking up a couple of prospects, maybe more than anything else, is that if those guys do make it to the big leagues, for 5-7 years, they fill a slot in your lineup at a premium price. You take a Milledge, stick him in where Dye is right now, combined with a Sweeney and an Anderson in the Outfield...and suddenly you have 3 hopefully decent players making less than $1 million a piece until basically 2009 or later. Even compared with what Dye's making right now, that gives you a TON of cash to go out and try to sign someone at another position where you're weak (Can anyone else picture Santana and Buehrle as our #1-#2 starters?)

[Dick Allen]

Felix Hernandez was a top prospect.  Albert Pujols was a top prospect.  Frank Thomas was a top prospect.  Whats your point about Corey Patterson?

My point is many top prospects don't pan out. Pitching wins championships. There is a far better chance Jose Contreras will outperform Milledge in the major leagues in 2006. BTW, Pujols was a 13th round pick. The White Sox wanted to draft Simeon High School star Jeff Jackson in 1989. The Phillies drafted him before the Sox had a chance to. He turned into a bust. The White Sox took their second choice, Frank Thomas.

[Felix]

BTW, Pujols was a 13th round pick.

McCarthy was even later than that IIRC, but wasn't he a top prospect in our system?

 

And yes, some top prospects do pan out. Some don't. Thats the way of the game.

[Balta1701]

My point is many top prospects don't pan out. Pitching wins championships. There is a far better chance Jose Contreras will outperform Milledge in the major leagues in 2006. BTW, Pujols was a 13th round pick. The White Sox wanted to draft Simeon High School star Jeff Jackson in 1989. The Phillies drafted him before the Sox had a chance to. He turned into a bust. The White Sox took their second choice, Frank Thomas.

There's probably a bigger gulf between being drafted highly and performing in the minor leagues than there is between performing in the minor leagues and performing in the Majors.

[Balta1701]

McCarthy was even later than that IIRC, but wasn't he a top prospect in our system?

 

And yes, some top prospects do pan out.  Some don't.  Thats the way of the game.

McCarthy = 17th round pick.

 

This other dude named Mark Buehrle...38th goddamned round.

[GoodAsGould]

McCarthy = 17th round pick.

 

This other dude named Mark Buehrle...38th goddamned round.

 

How about that guy named Mike Piazza.

[Dick Allen]

There's probably a bigger gulf between being drafted highly and performing in the minor leagues than there is between performing in the minor leagues and performing in the Majors.

You are right, but a guy like Patterson was taken 3rd overall. If you look at the first round of the 2000 draft, it may be one of the worst first rounds in any sport ever. The point being there was something someone saw that made these guys so desirable. High draft picks make a lot of money these days. There are a lot of guys that tear it up in the minors and are busts in the majors. I've never seen Milledge play, so I couldn't comment on him. But no matter what, I wouldn't trade a #1 like pitcher for him when I'm trying to win a championship, and it doesn't matter where this thread goes, KW wouldn't make that trade either, unless maybe in July if the Sox were out of it.

[Pants Rowland]

Just read all eleven pages of this ping pong match. One thing I did not see was mention of KW's repeated reference to a sustained run over the next 3 years or so. I think KW would trade just about anyone if the price and time was right but only if it helped win another title this year.

 

At this point in the season, the only reason to trade JC is the fear he might revert to old form. I agree that his past performance is inconsistent at best, no matter how high the highs. With that said, I doubt JC is going anywhere for anything but big league talent.

 

I know nothing about this NY prospect but I doubt he has seen a major league pitch. I would be really disappointed if KW traded a hot commodity coming off a Carlos Beltran-like postseason (from a pitching standpoint) for anything but solid bullpen help and possibly a more proven #2 hitter with some decent speed (I would even throw Brian Anderson in a trade if we could get a package deal on those needs). That would create a more consistent and balanced offensive attack than last year's team exhibited and would help strengthen a thinned out bullpen, no matter what anyone thought of Marte and Vizcaino. That is the only way the Sox will maintain a title run of three years or so.

 

The fact is, if JC performs this year, the Sox will have another good shot at the title. If the Sox make another strong postseason run, that puts more fans in the seats, increases merchandise sales on a national level and a puts a lot more money in the Sox coffers. The Angels have shown that a big market like LA (or Chicago) can strongly support two teams. If the Sox continue to perform, they will reach that upper echelon of revenue generators in MLB. That will definitely result in enough cash to resign JC or some other starter of equal or higher caliber.

 

One last thing to remember is Contreras, Buehrle and Garland are the only three WS starters not pitching in this world baseball classic circus. Even if Contreras is average in his starts, they need those guys to eat innings and keep the bullpen fresh while Vazquez and Garcia build up their arm strength for the long haul.