Minaya and Mets seeking Contreras

[nitetrain8601]

And barely anything is known about Anderson Gomes so how can anyone say that he's a good prospect yet?  Right now, he's just a prospect.

 

Fine, since you want to dismiss them, let's dismiss them. There's still enough guys to fill the spots and not suck.

[Dick Allen]

And barely anything is known about Anderson Gomes so how can anyone say that he's a good prospect yet?  Right now, he's just a prospect.

As is Milledge.

[Dick Allen]

Several points.

 

 

 

 

 

e.)  Once the season starts...teams may discover that they don't need as much pitching.  The Orioles might trade a ton for a pitcher right now...but let's say once the season starts they discover that Mazzone is as good as advertised and somehow their staff turns into a Leo Mazzone staff.  Then all of a sudden...they have no interest in pitching, and the market declines.

 

of events.

Teams ALWAYS need pitching. I really doubt the Sox would trade Contreras at the deadline if they are contending, unless he's really struggling, it would make no sense. KW already said they have to get pitching back and equal value for Contreras. This most likely eliminates any deal with the Mets.

[SSH2005]

As is Milledge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Milledge is a good prospect because he has put up really good numbers in high A and AA. Anderson Gomes hasn't even had one AB in the minors so therefore, he is just a prospect.

[DBAHO]

All these arguments about the worth of prospects, is really quite an interesting discussion in its own. I think most people know my stance on it, is that I value my prospects higher then most, and that's because I feel if you get good prospects who can contribute for you well at the major league level, it offers you so much in payroll flexibility, plus you'll control the player for at least 6 seasons.

 

A question was out forward earlier in this thread would you rather win for this season, or contend for the next 7. And 9 out of 10 people are probably going to take option 1. But I still feel, even if we traded Contreras for Heilman and Milledge, this team is still good enough to win the World Series. We'll still have 6 good starters (Heilman I think can flourish as a starter eventually), and we have more payroll room to make a move at mid-season.

 

Brandon McCarthy was nothing more than a prospect at this exact point 1 year ago. Basically he was at the same stage at what Lastings Milledge is at right now, just finished at AA (albeit Milledge spent more time there). Now B-Mac is a huge part of this team's future, and will play a very important role on this team in 2006.

 

Now I'm not advocating trading Contreras, for the sake of trading Contreras just because he's in the last year of his deal. And KW is obviously going to take the same path here. But if Omar Minaya goes up to you, and offers you a fantastic deal, that can still allow you to win now, and improve your chances of competiting in the future, he's seriously got to consider it.

 

But let's not forget either, Jon Garland was in this very situation a while back, being in a lots of rumors. This may be the start of the process where Jose decides, this is where I want to be long - term, and I'll actually decide to take a little less to stay here.

[SSH2005]

I doubt Minaya would offer that much (Heilman & Milledge) for Contreras but he did trade Cliff Lee and Grady Sizemore for half a season of Fatolo Colon. But if Minaya DID offer Heilman and Milledge for Contreras and KW turned it down, I would be very sad. That would be quite a haul for one year of Contreras. Heilman and McCarthy could compete for the #5 spot in the rotation and the runner-up would go to the bullpen. Either way, we would still have six starters in case of an injury. And we'd have Milledge for years.

Edited January 27, 2006 by SSH2005

[beck72]

I only read a few pages. But I could see a 3 team trade working in this situation with the mets, with Milledge going to a third team that has some pitching.

[YASNY]

Prospects are great. I love 'em. I want the Sox to have a lot of 'em. But when it comes down to it, the whole shebang, every player in the Sox system, all the managers and coaches up and down the minor league system, the whole existance of the organization is set up to do two things. Turns profits and win championships. That's it. That's what it's all about.

 

Williams finally was able to achieve the championship after an 88 year 'slump'. He agressively went out and tried to make that World Championship team even better. He traded away a very good OF prospect to make the pitching staff stronger. It doesn't calculate that he would then trade a very good pitcher from the big league staff to replace the very good OF prospect with another one. He might consider it if a decent young pitcher capable of being in the rotation or bullpen is part of the deal. But to trade Jose Contreras for any AA player in baseball is counterproductive for the White Sox at this particular point in time. Flat out, it doesn't make sense.

[beck72]

Prospects are great.  I love 'em.  I want the Sox to have a lot of 'em.  But when it comes down to it, the whole shebang, every player in the Sox system, all the managers and coaches up and down the minor league system, the whole existance of the organization is set up to do two things.  Turns profits and win championships.  That's it.  That's what it's all about. 

 

Williams finally was able to achieve the championship after an 88 year 'slump'.  He agressively went out and tried to make that World Championship team even better.  He traded away a very good OF prospect to make the pitching staff stronger.  It doesn't calculate that he would then trade a very good pitcher from the big league staff to replace the very good OF prospect with another one.  He might consider it if a decent young pitcher capable of being in the rotation or bullpen is part of the deal.  But to trade Jose Contreras for any AA player in baseball is counterproductive for the White Sox at this particular point in time.  Flat out, it doesn't make sense.

 

I agree that Milledge wouldn't be a good fit for the Sox. It would only make sense if a team had some arms that could help the sox this yr that the sox could trade Milledge to. The Marlins come to mind with a bunch of pitchers near major league ready but few position players.

[WCSox]

Prospects are great.  I love 'em.  I want the Sox to have a lot of 'em.  But when it comes down to it, the whole shebang, every player in the Sox system, all the managers and coaches up and down the minor league system, the whole existance of the organization is set up to do two things.  Turns profits and win championships.  That's it.  That's what it's all about. 

 

Williams finally was able to achieve the championship after an 88 year 'slump'.  He agressively went out and tried to make that World Championship team even better.  He traded away a very good OF prospect to make the pitching staff stronger.  It doesn't calculate that he would then trade a very good pitcher from the big league staff to replace the very good OF prospect with another one.  He might consider it if a decent young pitcher capable of being in the rotation or bullpen is part of the deal.  But to trade Jose Contreras for any AA player in baseball is counterproductive for the White Sox at this particular point in time.  Flat out, it doesn't make sense.

 

Agreed. Falling in love with prospects is a major reason why the Sox never won squat in the Schueler era.

[GreenSox]

Nothing wrong with trading for prospects. You can load up a team with all stars all you want, but anything can happen - baseball is about odds and percentages - the best teams lose 35% of the time; the best hitters every fail 60+% of the time.

Same with prospects - out of a pool of 10 top prospects, you may get 2 that can play MLB - but those 2 are important, absent an unlimited budget. We'll have 3 rookies playing key roles on the Sox this year - and that's with an upper tier payroll.

Jose certainly will make us a stronger team. But we are a contender withoout him; top prospects will help us contend in the future, which we want to do. We want to be a player 7/10 years.

So, if some team wants to load us up with prospects for JOse, take them. It makes perfect sense. If they want to give us some used spare parts, forget it.

[Whitewashed in '05]

Win another world series in 06 vs. getting some prospects for the future. I'll take winning another world series.

 

Unless someone seriously overpays for Count he isn't going anywhere.

[Felix]

Might just be me, but I don't think that Contreras is the one thing that can lead us to the World Series this year, and if he is, we are in trouble.

[jphat007]

Might just be me, but I don't think that Contreras is the one thing that can lead us to the World Series this year, and if he is, we are in trouble.

 

Yah. He did it last year. Must of used all of his "leading" up. We weren't in trouble last year when he led us from the All Star game on when we needed him the most.

 

It's not like he was our #1 starter in the playoffs....

Edited January 29, 2006 by jphat007

[Felix]

Yah. He did it last year. Must of used all of his "leading" up. We weren't in trouble last year when he led us from the All Star game on when we needed him the most.

 

It's not like he was our #1 starter in the playoffs....

We can still make it to the playoffs/World Series without him. I believe BMac can do everything Contreras can do at the least, and trading Contreras also builds our team up for the future.

[jphat007]

We can still make it to the playoffs/World Series without him.  I believe BMac can do everything Contreras can do at the least, and trading Contreras also builds our team up for the future.

 

Too bad that isn't what you said. You said we are in trouble if Contreras is leading us to the WS, which, after last year, is just flat out wrong.

Edited January 29, 2006 by jphat007

[Felix]

Please, enlighten me why you have these thoughts.....

Jose Contreras Post All-Star Break:

103.1 IP

11-2

2.96 ERA

.236 BAA

 

Brandon McCarthy Post All-Star Break:

42.2 IP

3-1

1.69 ERA

.201 BAA

 

Granted, BMac didn't pitch in as many innings, but if his numbers are any indication of how he'll do over a longer period of time (they will probably decline a bit, but still).

 

I also don't think Contreras is as good as everyone here thinks. He's had 1 good season (2003 + the second half of 2005), and has been average at best the rest of the time. Contreras is getting older (probably ~40), and who knows how long he can last with the workload he had in Cuba.

[Felix]

Too bad that isn't what you said. You said we are in trouble if Contreras is leading us to the WS, which, after last year, is just flat out wrong.

No, I said we are in trouble if he is the one thing leading us to the World Series, meaning without him we cannot make it.

[GreenSox]

Win another world series in 06 vs. getting some prospects for the future. I'll take winning another world series.

 

Unless someone seriously overpays for Count he isn't going anywhere.

 

But that's not exactly the choice. How much does Contreras help us win this year? Some, but how much? And you can never guarantee yourself the world's series.

 

I remember so many wanted to throw in any and all young talent to get the great AJ Burnett for a midseason rental.

 

I have a different philosophy than many. I think you have a much better chance at rings if you give yourself more chances at rings, versus loading up a team for 1 year and trying to force a WS. With our payroll, there's no reason that we don't contend 7/10 years. And young players are a piece of that. It doesn't mean you constantly backtrack like Cleveland does and Montreal did. But with Jose, we are dealing from strength/surplus; the the loot is big enough, I'd take it.

Edited January 29, 2006 by GreenSox

[Felix]

You SEVERLEY underrate Jose. It seems like you have some grudge against him for whatever reason, but whatever.

 

You really believe Brandon, next season, is going to put up the numbers Count did, and more("I believe BMac can do everything Contreras can do at the least")?

 

I really am excited for Brandon, but you need to realize what Contreras brought to this team in 2005, and more importantly, down the stretch.

Yea, I do underrate him. I know this, and its pretty apparent

But he's extremely overated on this board. Yes, he carried this team the second half of this year, but for the rest of his career, he was nothing better than average (2003 is an exception; he was good). He was horrible in New York, and in Chicago in 2004. In 2005, he was average in the first half, and I think people forget that. He did everything he could for this team in the second half, and carried the team, but does doing it once make him one of the best pitchers in the league? No. If he does it again in 2006, then yea, I might tend to think that he really is an ace, but until that happens, I'll look at his entire career, rather than just half one season.

[Whitewashed in '05]

But that's not exactly the choice.  How much does Contreras help us win this year?  Some, but how much?  And you can never guarantee yourself the world's series.

 

I remember so many wanted to throw in any and all young talent to get the great AJ Burnett for a midseason rental.

 

I have a different philosophy than many.  I think you have a much better chance at rings if you give yourself more chances at rings, versus loading up a team for 1 year and trying to force a WS.  With our payroll, there's no reason that we don't contend 7/10 years.  And young players are a piece of that.  It doesn't mean you constantly backtrack like Cleveland does and Montreal did.  But with Jose, we are dealing from strength/surplus; the the loot is big enough, I'd take it.

I definitley agree with you about making it to the playoffs lots of times gives you more chances to win it all, but KW is making a big run again at it this year. I do believe in Bmac, but he has not proven he can do what Count did for us last season. Which is why I think you don't deal him unless someone overpays.

[Dick Allen]

I definitley agree with you about making it to the playoffs lots of times gives you more chances to win it all, but KW is making a big run again at it this year. I do believe in Bmac, but he has not proven he can do what Count did for us last season. Which is why I think you don't deal him unless someone overpays.

 

That's another thing I don't understand. Some people say Contreras only pitched well for half a season, the Sox should get something for him and put BMac into the rotation. BMac didn't pitch well on the big league level for half a season, what makes these people so sure BMac is a sure thing but Contreras is not? Its all a mute point, KW said he isn't trading any of the starters.

[Milkman delivers]

That's another thing I don't understand. Some people say Contreras only pitched well for half a season, the Sox should get something for him and put BMac into the rotation. BMac didn't pitch well on the big league level for half a season, what makes these people so sure BMac is a sure thing but Contreras is not? Its all a mute point, KW said he isn't trading any of the starters.

 

I think Contreras pitched well in the beginning of the season. He didn't pick up wins, but he had some bad luck.

[nitetrain8601]

I think Contreras pitched well in the beginning of the season.  He didn't pick up wins, but he had some bad luck.

 

I agree with this as well. He had the worst luck of all of our starters, especially in the beginning of the year. Like the 3rd game of the season against CLE when Shingo blew the lead.

[Felix]

That's another thing I don't understand. Some people say Contreras only pitched well for half a season, the Sox should get something for him and put BMac into the rotation. BMac didn't pitch well on the big league level for half a season, what makes these people so sure BMac is a sure thing but Contreras is not? Its all a mute point, KW said he isn't trading any of the starters.

When BMac was sent back down to AAA, he fixed his delivery. Fixing a delivery is a much easier thing to fix than someone's confidence, and it usually stays fixed, unlike confidence.