GoodAsGould Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 10:28 PM) When BMac was sent back down to AAA, he fixed his delivery. Fixing a delivery is a much easier thing to fix than someone's confidence, and it usually stays fixed, unlike confidence. I could of swore Contreras' delivery was also changed during the season it sure looked different to me at times... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 I could of swore Contreras' delivery was also changed during the season it sure looked different to me at times... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He did... http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=25187 Besides being a confidant, "El Duque" taught Contreras how to change his delivery from an over-the-top release point to more three-quarters delivery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 01:26 PM) Jose Contreras Post All-Star Break: I also don't think Contreras is as good as everyone here thinks. He's had 1 good season (2003 + the second half of 2005), and has been average at best the rest of the time. Contreras is getting older (probably ~40), and who knows how long he can last with the workload he had in Cuba. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm getting sick and tired of reading people saying Joe only had one good half in 2005. Look at his splits. He had a rough June and July. 5/7 (yes I'm including the postseason) of the year he was a great pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 05:52 PM) I'm getting sick and tired of reading people saying Joe only had one good half in 2005. Look at his splits. He had a rough June and July. 5/7 (yes I'm including the postseason) of the year he was a great pitcher. It takes consistancy to be one of the best pitchers in the league, which is what everything here seems to think Contreras is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 04:53 PM) It takes consistancy to be one of the best pitchers in the league, which is what everything here seems to think Contreras is. Considering Contreras is 35-18 for his career, you sure do find a lot wrong with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 06:54 PM) Considering Contreras is 35-18 for his career, you sure do find a lot wrong with him. He also has a career 4.28 ERA (league average ERA of 4.53 during that time) and 1.31 WHIP, which doesn't look like one of the best pitchers in the league to me. And the reason I find a lot wrong with him is because there is a lot wrong with him. Edited January 30, 2006 by Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 06:07 PM) He also has a career 4.28 ERA (league average ERA of 4.53 during that time) and 1.31 WHIP, which doesn't look like one of the best pitchers in the league to me. And the reason I find a lot wrong with him is because there is a lot wrong with him. Its a good thing the Sox were able to overcome his second half last year, and his team leading 4 playoff starts to win the WS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jphat007 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 06:07 PM) He also has a career 4.28 ERA (league average ERA of 4.53 during that time) and 1.31 WHIP, which doesn't look like one of the best pitchers in the league to me. And the reason I find a lot wrong with him is because there is a lot wrong with him. LOL. Well I guess that settles that. Since you think there is a lot wrong with him, despite your admited bias against him, there must be something wrong with him. You say that he's not a great pitcher, because of the rough year he had in 2004, but then completely ignore the reasons why he became a good pitcher last year. It wasn't just luck. But whatever, keepin on hatin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Considering Contreras is 35-18 for his career, you sure do find a lot wrong with him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yankees' run support will tend to help a pitcher's record. He wen't 13-9 overall in 2004 with a whopping 5.50 ERA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(jphat007 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 07:15 PM) LOL. Well I guess that settles that. Since you think there is a lot wrong with him, despite your admited bias against him, there must be something wrong with him. You say that he's not a great pitcher, because of the rough year he had in 2004, but then completely ignore the reasons why he became a good pitcher last year. It wasn't just luck. But whatever, keepin on hatin. No, I've said he's not as good as everyone here thinks he is (which is the greatest thing since sliced bread). I think he can be a good #4 or #5 starter if he stays on his career averages. If he does what he did in the second half of 2005 on a consistant basis, then I'll say he's a top tier starter. Until I see that though, I'll keep thinking what I think about him. Edited January 30, 2006 by Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Felix at this stage do you feel that Jon Garland has done in his career then Contreras at this stage, and is he a better pitcher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 07:22 PM) Felix at this stage do you feel that Jon Garland has done in his career then Contreras at this stage, and is he a better pitcher? They are basically at the same point in my book, although I'd take Garland over Contreras because of his age and pitching type (groundball pitcher). Garland is 26 years old, Contreras is likely pushing 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 06:18 PM) Yankees' run support will tend to help a pitcher's record. He wen't 13-9 overall in 2004 with a whopping 5.50 ERA. Yes, but he pitched a few great games. He wasn't a typical pitcher with a 5.50 ERA. You don't see many guys with an ERA that high that gave up less hits than innings pitched. I became a Contreras fan in 2003 when he made the White Sox look like 3 year olds. He didn't get credit for the shutout because he didn't go all the way, but he blew a great offensive team away. Considering his history in Cuba, he was the star of their team, considering the Yankees gave him a $32 million contract, he obviously is a very talented pitcher. For whatever reason, it took him a while to put it together, but he certainly did last season. I don't know how his success could be called a fluke. I would think there's a far better chance he pitches like he did in 2005 than in 2004. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 07:07 PM) He also has a career 4.28 ERA (league average ERA of 4.53 during that time) and 1.31 WHIP, which doesn't look like one of the best pitchers in the league to me. And the reason I find a lot wrong with him is because there is a lot wrong with him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How would you rank Aaron Rowand amongst MLB outfielders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Yes, but he pitched a few great games. He wasn't a typical pitcher with a 5.50 ERA. You don't see many guys with an ERA that high that gave up less hits than innings pitched. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In 2004, Contreras gave up less hits (166) than IP (170.1) but he still issued a ton of walks (84) for a 1.47 WHIP on the season. If he keeps his walks down like he did last season (75 BB in 204.2 IP), I will believe that he's the real deal. But he's still very old so he may not keep up this level of performance anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 07:30 PM) How would you rank Aaron Rowand amongst MLB outfielders? Defensively, one of the best, if not the best. Offensively, he's good enough to get by if the team he's on has offensive sources elsewhere. If he can put up his 2004 numbers, or anywhere in between his 2004 and 2005 numbers (~.800-.850 OPS), he would be one of the better overall CF's in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 07:38 PM) Defensively, one of the best, if not the best. Offensively, he's good enough to get by if the team he's on has offensive sources elsewhere. If he can put up his 2004 numbers, or anywhere in between his 2004 and 2005 numbers (~.800-.850 OPS), he would be one of the better overall CF's in the league. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well that settles it. I have no idea what method you use to evaluate players. Can we play the "in between years" game with Contreras too? Forget it, it'll be complete waste of our time. I remember last offseason sticking up for Contreras saying he would "easily" win 15 games and could understand why some posters were skeptical. In 2005, he had two rough months out of seven, saved our team down the stretch, and was our #1 starter throughout the playoffs, and a poster still doesn't believe in him. I really don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 06:35 PM) In 2004, Contreras gave up less hits (166) than IP (170.1) but he still issued a ton of walks (84) for a 1.47 WHIP on the season. If he keeps his walks down like he did last season (75 BB in 204.2 IP), I will believe that he's the real deal. But he's still very old so he may not keep up this level of performance anyways. I know he has to be older than his listed age, but I don't think his advanced age will be a factor in 2006. He still throws very hard, and his forkball is unhittable. His problem in 2004 and part of 2005 was he relied on his forkball way too much, and it is a hard pitch to throw consistently for strikes. If someone hit his fastball hard, be it over the wall, right at someone, or even foul, he would not throw them another fastball again. His slider is also above average, but he wouldn't throw that at all either. If he struggles, it will be because of injury or it will be something mental. The guy still has the best stuff on the White Sox, and has some of the best stuff in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 07:47 PM) I have no idea what method you use to evaluate players. Can we play the "in between years" game with Contreras too? Er.. I said IF he found a medium between 2004 and 2005, I didn't say he would (although its more likely that he does than Contreras because of age and such). I also said that if he had the same numbers as he did last year, he's good enough to get by as long as the team had other offensive assests. I also said in other posts IF Contreras duplicated what he did in the second half of 2005, I would say he's a top tier pitcher. But you seem to ignore that. Edited January 30, 2006 by Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 I remember last offseason sticking up for Contreras saying he would "easily" win 15 games and could understand why some posters were skeptical. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Contreras won 13 games with a 5.50 ERA in 2004. Predicting him to win 15 games in 2005 wasn't really that big of a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 07:50 PM) I also said in other posts IF Contreras duplicated what he did in the second half of 2005, I would say he's a top tier pitcher. But you seem to ignore that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> :banghead I have already pointed it out to you TWICE that Contreras was more than a second half pitcher last season. Take a look at his April and May numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 07:52 PM) Contreras won 13 games with a 5.50 ERA in 2004. Predicting him to win 15 games in 2005 wasn't really that big of a stretch. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Didn't Dick Allen already tell you that Contreras isn't your typical 5.50 ERA pitcher? Jose Contreras in 2004 would either go 7 IP and get the win, or go less than two innings and give up six runs inflating his ERA. It's not like the guy always gave up 5 runs and sometimes got more run support *cough Cliff Lee* than what he was giving up. Like I said, I predicted he would "easily" win 15 games next season and people thought I was nuts. Take a look at some of the predictions some posters have made for Javier Vazquez this upcoming season. Vazquez is a similar pitcher to Contreras in regards that he has some great, great outings, and then he has some outings that are so bad, they f*** up his numbers for a month. That is why right now, I will say "Javier Vazquez will win no less than 16 games for the Sox next season." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 09:04 PM) :banghead I have already pointed it out to you TWICE that Contreras was more than a second half pitcher last season. The same could be said for Joe Crede, but do you consider him one of the best 3B in the league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 We should just make Felix happy and trade Jose Contreras for Kevin Youkalis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 09:26 PM) We should just make Felix happy and trade Jose Contreras for Kevin Youkalis Nah, we don't need Youkalis on the White Sox. We are already set at the positions which he plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.