Did the Thome coverage spook you?

[SSH2005]

Your reasoning is good but I object to your premise.  You say Thome will out-produce  Everett (which I buy) and later, Thome will out-produce Thomas (which I only buy if Thomas gets hurt). 

 

My premise is that Rowand + Everett + (Thomas / Injury probability) together is a lesser risk than Anderson + (Thome / Injury probability).  And I think this even though Thomas' injury probabilty certainly seems higher than Thome's.  The only way the equation works for the White Sox is a healthy Jim Thome.  KW is taking a hell of a chance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you wanted to pay $15 million for our DH position ($10 million option for Thomas + $5 million option for Everett)? Not to mention the $3.25 million that Rowand would cost. So the Sox would be paying a combined $18.25 million for two positions (DH and CF). I sure am glad that you aren't the White Sox GM.

Edited January 28, 2006 by SSH2005

[nitetrain8601]

So you wanted to pay $15 million for our DH position ($10 million option for Thomas + $5 million option for Everett)?  Not to mention the $3.25 million that Rowand would cost.  So the Sox would be paying a combined $18.25 million for two positions (DH and CF).  I sure am glad that you aren't the White Sox GM.

 

Thomas wasn't expecting the 10 million dollar option to be picked up. In fact, everyone knew it wasn't going to be picked up. I don't know why you brought that up. There's a reason why he was bought out. He probably would've gotten around 5 million to stay around. Everett was going to be gone regardless. You would've had a better chance at seeing Rondell White DH on this team before Everett came back.

[SSH2005]

Thomas wasn't expecting the 10 million dollar option to be picked up. In fact, everyone knew it wasn't going to be picked up. I don't know why you brought that up. There's a reason why he was bought out. He probably would've gotten around 5 million to stay around. Everett was going to be gone regardless. You would've had a better chance at seeing Rondell White DH on this team before Everett came back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gene Honda Civic wrapped it up nicely in the following thread...

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...pic=45866&st=15

 

Read Post #27 and Post #31.

Edited January 28, 2006 by SSH2005

[chitownsportsfan]

270 .329 .407

 

Who's numbers are those? Any guesses? The departed Arow's. So, who wants to bet me that BA puts up more than a .738 OPS? BA is likely an offensive upgrade over the Arow of 2005. I don't see the problem here.

 

As for the Thome/Frank/Jurassic thing--don't some of you realize just how putrid the DH position was last year? As posted, Jurassic's splits just sucked. His homer numbers were inflated by playing in the Cell, and his OPS still sucked.

 

No matter what happens injury wise with Frank and Thome, nobody can seriously argue that Thome does not represent less injury risk than Frank. But to simplify this down to risk is well, risky. Thome does two things Frank cannot: bats LH, and can play 1B. Both are important things to consider.

 

I agree that trading Rowand for Thome to replace what was arguably already possesed (Frank Thomas), and then losing Frank, is a bit of a hard pill to swallow on the dawn of a world championship. However, Rowand is the definition of fungible in CF--a no hit good defense guy--MLB has plenty of those guys. Thome is a rare commodity: a LH who hits for a high OBP and slugging.

[nitetrain8601]

Gene Honda Civic wrapped it up nicely in the following thread...

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...pic=45866&st=15

 

Read Post #27 and Post #31.

 

If that's the case(sorry Frank), the guy is f***ing dumb and insane.

[SSH2005]

270  .329  .407

 

Who's numbers are those?  Any guesses?  The departed Arow's.  So, who wants to bet me that BA puts up more than a .738 OPS?  BA is likely an offensive upgrade over the Arow of 2005.  I don't see the problem here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.736 OPS.

 

Also keep in mind that Rowand was hit by a whopping 21 pitches last season and his OBP was still only a paltry .329. Imagine what Rowand's OBP would have been if he didn't get so many HBP's.

[DBAHO]

Thome will out-produce Thomas (which I only buy if Thomas gets hurt). 

These are Thomas's seasons after he's been hurt from a major injury the season before hand;

2002 - .252/.361/.472

2005 - .219/.315/.590

 

I don't know if Thomas would be able to hit higher then .250 if he stayed here, and that's JMHO. Thome is 2 years younger, and has put up a +.900 OPS in every season before 2005 since 1994.

 

 

My premise is that Rowand + Everett + (Thomas / Injury probability) together is a lesser risk than Anderson + (Thome / Injury probability).  And I think this even though Thomas' injury probabilty certainly seems higher than Thome's.

 

Putting Thomas's and Everett's OPS's together it equals .825. I think it would be a shock to most people if Thome couldn't beat this in 2006. There's a lot more favorable factors in Thome's favor coming back here.

[Rooftop Shots]

Haven't read the whole thread, but if I recall, someone mentioned on the board quite a while back that Thome's injury was throwing related. I believe that only because of the nature of his injury, aquiring a left-handed power bat in the line-up, but also it gave a lot of insurance to sign PK for now, and for the long haul. Whereas management would rather risk on him than big Frank, because not only of the nature of Franks injury, but take in consideration that here's a guy weighing 270Lbs driving hard on the same foot that was broken twice already. I hate that Big Frank is no longer with us, but if you were management, who would you rather take the risk on?

[RME JICO]

It is really hard to compare everything as it lays out now compared to how it played out in sequence from the end of the season. Thome was insurance for Paulie's impending departure, and when Paulie resigned, that was when Frank was gone. Even if that didn't play out exactly that way, were the Sox going to wait until every other FA signed to see if Frank was healthy by ST? I highly doubt it.

 

Also, if you research more about Frank's injury, it indeed is the "Big Hurt". He cannot have surgery on it again, and the next time he injures it, his career is over either way. That is a huge risk. It is all or none.

 

Thomas was not going to take that contract from the Sox. Also, do you really think Frank would take a contract that low if he didn't have to? Why were there no other suitors willing to pay Frank that much?

 

All he has to do is roll his ankle once rounding the bags and he is done. Frank also puts a lot of pressure on his left ankle when he bats, so there has to be a lot of concern there. He is a monster, so there is added pressure on his lower extremities, he is 38, and he has not run since the injury. He probably also has a higher probability of injuring another part of his body from compensating for his ankle.

 

I don't know how you can compare that to Thome's situation.

 

 

Remember this:

The Chicago Tribune reports Chicago White Sox DH Frank Thomas (foot), who has been on the disabled list, will undergo another set of tests on his left foot Oct. 13 in California.

 

These tests obviously had to show something that would lead the Sox medical staff to believe that he was a considerable risk, and that the Sox front office needed to start looking into alternatives.

 

This whole situation is just going to motivate Thome even more to have a monster year and shut up all the naysayers.

 

Lastly, you really cannot compare Thomas+Everett+Rowand to just Thome+Anderson. There is an extra roster spot that will contribute, whether that is a pitcher or backup positional player. The Sox added more flexibility, Thome can play 1st, where Thomas and Everett would platoon at DH and Carl would get some time in the OF. You are handcuffing your roster by having a player that cannot play any field positions. That last spot becomes even more important over the entire season.

[3E8]

I don't think Thome will be able to even put up what Everett/Thomas did out out of the DH spot last year. He just started swinging a bat for the first time last month.

[Pants Rowland]

These are Thomas's seasons after he's been hurt from a major injury the season before hand;

2002 - .252/.361/.472

2005 - .219/.315/.590

 

I don't know if Thomas would be able to hit higher then .250 if he stayed here, and that's JMHO.

 

Forgive me for going in a little bit different directon on this discussion, but one intangible that we are starting to forget is Thomas is a selfish individual who brought almost all of this on himself. Sure he played the good soldier this year with all the clapping and smiling. I myself was almost hoodwinked. However, the true Frank Thomas stood up when he rushed himself back from injury, spent minimal time in the minors and announced himself ready to play even though his timing was clearly off in AAA.

 

This forced the White Sox to make a roster move in order to accomodate Thomas, which was required by certain rules relating to tenured players. Thomas came back and could not run the bases. His ridiculous home run output had us all cheering but the rest of the time he was striking out, hitting into putrid double plays, or clogging up the basepaths when he draw an occassional walk or hit a single off the wall. To top it all off, he and Everett started whining about playing time since they had to share DH duties.

 

He now tries to portray it that he rushed himself to come back to contribute to a winning team. To me it was fairly obvious he rushed back to make his run at 500 HR and hopefull get another big contract. Ultimately his plan backfired as even that slow jog around the bases was too much for his ankle to handle. So now he departs for the A's and we are supposed to think the WS mistreated him.

 

I think he should be in the HOF, but I also think he has been fairly disappointing since 1997 with the 2000 season being the lone bright spot. I'm sorry, but Thanks for the memories Frank. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[SSH2005]

I don't think Thome will be able to even put up what Everett/Thomas did out out of the DH spot last year.  He just started swinging a bat for the first time last month.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you really think that a great hitter like Thome just forgets how to hit after one injury-plagued season?

[bschmaranz]

 

"i'm baaaaack"

 

Do you think Eric LaSalle sold him some "Soul Glo"???

[3E8]

Do you really think that a great hitter like Thome just forgets how to hit after one injury-plagued season? 

It's not abot forgetting how to hit, it's about hitting over 30 hr's anfd driving in 100 after TJ surgery.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It's not abot forgetting how to hit, it's about hitting over 30 hr's anfd driving in 100 after TJ surgery.

 

So you're basically saying King Kenny is an idiot? In Kenny, I trust.

[SSH2005]

It's not abot forgetting how to hit, it's about hitting over 30 hr's anfd driving in 100 after TJ surgery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thome had surgery to repair a frayed tendon in his right elbow. I don't believe he had Tommy John surgery.

 

http://fantasybaseball.usatoday.com/index....rofile&name=266

Aug. 16 Jim Thome had season-ending surgery Tuesday on his right elbow to repair a frayed tendon, according to the AP. Thome's arm will be placed in a splint for two weeks followed by a range-of-motion limiting device for an additional two weeks.

[RME JICO]

Thome had surgery to repair a frayed tendon in his right elbow.  I don't believe he had Tommy John surgery.

 

http://fantasybaseball.usatoday.com/index....rofile&name=266

 

Yeah, he did not have TJ surgery. His surgery was actually fairly minor. It was a fray not even a complete tear. It started out as tendonitis or Tennis Elbow and he tried to play thru the pain and it got worse.

 

He had a successful surgery on August 16th. So he is almost 6 months since the surgery with rehab and physical therapy. There is a good chance that he comes into 2006 in better shape than he has in years.

[YASNY]

If it was me making the decision to choose between Thome+Anderson vs. Thomas+Rowand I'd go with the former. Frank is officially consider old bordering on ancient in baseball terms as well as significant risk for career ending injury and is injury prone to boot. Thome has been solid everyday player year in and year out until '05. His chances of returning to an every day player are exponentially greater than Frank's. Anderson vs. Rowand I believe will be a wash.

[Texsox]

Konerko himself said that the Thome acquisition was a huge reason that he decided to return.

 

Don't believe everything you read. Do you think helping the front office with a future PR problem, would be part of the deal?

[LosMediasBlancas]

Thome will be fine. His injuries, as far as I know, are not reoccuring or nagging like Frank's foot. He has been hitting 4 times a week and should be ready to report with pitchers and catchers.

[3E8]

Thome had surgery to repair a frayed tendon in his right elbow.  I don't believe he had Tommy John surgery.

 

http://fantasybaseball.usatoday.com/index....rofile&name=266

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it was TJ surgery.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Please, stop with the Everett talk. He was not a reasonable option at that price. The fact is his slide more than anything else is what pushed Thomas back into the lineup when his ankle was only 70% healed. If Frank hadn't come back the White Sox likely lose the division to the Tribe & miss out on the wild card as well. Ozzie needs to face that reality & acknowledge it. His 40 ab comment was poorly thought out.

 

Both Kenny & JR dropped the ball in their handling of Frank at the very end. I don't blame Kenny for stringing Thomas along til the day they signed Kong because the fact is Thomas remained an option until Kong signed. But both of them should have sought Thomas out (they had the opportunity at the winter meetings) & dealt with Thomas personally. Explain to him how it played out & express their regret they weren't able to find a solution that included him.

 

Thomas is not just any other player. His stature in the league is such that he deserved special consideration. If Kenny or JR want to attempt to mend the fences they should both seek Thomas out now & convince him to show up at the White House gathering. They need to lower the chip on their shoulders for a minute & remind themselves & Thomas that the White Sox might not have been World Champions if not for Thomas re-igniting the offense when they needed it most.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Here's what Kenny needs to tell Thomas face-to-face (if Thomas will give him the opportunity):

 

Frank would could not tell you we were going into another direction because we didn't know how the scenario would play out. If Kong hadn't signed we could not afford to lose you. The Thome trade wasn't about replacing you. It was about replacing Kong if he choose the Angels instead. You read the papers. It looked like we were going to lose Kong. After his visit with the Angels we already had a Frank + Thome middle pegged. But Kong surprised us & came back. We still tried to find a solution that included you. But we didn't feel like you were going to want to share at-bats with Thome. So we had to say goodbye.

 

I should have told you that in December. You're an icon Frank. How do you tell this stuff to an icon? Honestly, Frank you're an intimidating presence. This ranks as one of the toughest things I've ever had to do. Good Luck with Oakland. I know I & the rest of the White Sox fans will be rooting for you. You might not believe it but we want you to reach 500 HR's too. We just hope you take the day off when we play you. That goes double at the Cell. You're a HR hitting monster there. Play your best against the ALC. Beat the rest of the teams into submission. Do it for the A's fans. Do it for the White Sox fans. Do it for yourself.

 

No organization is more proud of a player than we are of you Frank. That goes many times over for the White Sox fans. Don't be surprised if they give you a standing O at the Cell. That's a rare thing for a player who now represents the team most likely to unseat us for the AL pennant.

Edited January 28, 2006 by JUGGERNAUT

[Pants Rowland]

I should have told you that in December.  You're an icon Frank.  How do you tell this stuff to an icon?  Honestly, Frank you're an intimidating presence.  This ranks as one of the toughest things I've ever had to do.  Good Luck with Oakland.  I know I & the rest of the White Sox fans will be rooting for you.  You might not believe it but we want you to reach 500 HR's too.  We just hope you take the day off when we play you.  That goes double at the Cell.  You're a HR hitting monster there.  Play your best against the ALC.  Beat the rest of the teams into submission.  Do it for the A's fans.  Do it for the White Sox fans.  Do it for yourself.

 

No organization is more proud of a player than we are of you Frank.  That goes many times over for the White Sox fans.  Don't be surprised if they give you a standing O at the Cell.  That's a rare thing for a player who now represents the team most likely to unseat us for the AL pennant.

 

That was beautiful. Please excuse me while I go throw up. Frank may be an icon on the baseball field (or at least at the plate), but he is a spoiled prima donna everywhere else. I do not mean to sound disrespectful of his career, but Frank has done his fair share over the years to cause problems for the WS. He used to show up late for spring training so he could sell shoes in Japan. He staged contract holdouts because he was embarrased about the mega millions he was making. He consistently said dumb and insenstive things in public. He was also as big a hawk as Reinsdorf prior to the strike in 1994. He did not stay in good physical condition and started breaking down after he hit his thirties. He gets paid tens of millions for two bad seasons but wants more money after he has a season worthy of the money. He refused to do drills that his teammates had to do in spring training. The guy does not run the bases well (I still remember his "I am that big train" Reebok commercial despite the fact he never had the desire to run over a catcher to win a ball game). He barely knows what to do with a glove and he could never turn a 3-6-3 DP to save his life.

 

And as far as Thomas saving the White Sox with his valient return to the line-up, give me a break. I agree Jurassic was brutal swinging at balls at his ankles. I also know the numbers show the Sox had the best winning percentage in the regular season when Thomas was in the line-up. However, things have a way of evening out and I will not go so far as saying the Sox were winning because of Frank. They did pretty well to start the season without him. The string of consecutive games with a lead was done without Thomas hitting 1st inning homers. And if my memory serves me right, the White Sox went 16-1 to end the season...without Frank Thomas!

 

I do not mean to bash the guy, but before this past week, I was disappointed Thomas would not be on the south side this year. I have concerns about Thome being healthy or as productive as Thomas just as much as I have concerns about Thomas being healthy and in the right state of mind. However, all his mouthing off this week once again revealed the true Frank Thomas, a surly prima donna shooting for 50-some more home runs to validate his entry into the HOF. I acknowledge his accomplishments and agree that his career is nothing short of exceptional, but here in 2006 I must say good riddance to Frank and his selfish ways.

Edited January 28, 2006 by Beltin'Bill

[kevin57]

Frank may be an icon on the baseball field (or at least at the plate), but he is a spoiled prima donna everywhere else. I do not mean to sound disrespectful of his career, but Frank has done his fair share over the years to cause problems for the WS. He used to show up late for spring training so he could sell shoes in Japan. He staged contract holdouts because he was embarrased about the mega millions he was making. He consistently said dumb and insenstive things in public. He was also as big a hawk as Reinsdorf prior to the strike in 1994. He did not stay in good physical condition and started breaking down after he hit his thirties. He gets paid tens of millions for two bad seasons but wants more money after he has a season worthy of the money. He refused to do drills that his teammates had to do in spring training. The guy does not run the bases well (I still remember his "I am that big train" Reebok commercial despite the fact he never had the desire to run over a catcher to win a ball game). He barely knows what to do with a glove and he could never turn a 3-6-3 DP to save his life.

 

And as far as Thomas saving the White Sox with his valient return to the line-up, give me a break. I agree Jurassic was brutal swinging at balls at his ankles. I also know the numbers show the Sox had the best winning percentage in the regular season when Thomas was in the line-up. However, things have a way of evening out and I will not go so far as saying the Sox were winning because of Frank. They did pretty well to start the season without him. The string of consecutive games with a lead was done without Thomas hitting 1st inning homers. And if my memory serves me right, the White Sox went 16-1 to end the season...without Frank Thomas!

 

I do not mean to bash the guy, but before this past week, I was disappointed Thomas would not be on the south side this year. I have concerns about Thome being healthy or as productive as Thomas just as much as I have concerns about Thomas being healthy and in the right state of mind. However, all his mouthing off this week once again revealed the true Frank Thomas, a surly prima donna shooting for 50-some more home runs to validate his entry into the HOF. I acknowledge his accomplishments and agree that his career is nothing short of exceptional, but here in 2006 I must say good riddance to Frank and his selfish ways.

 

Thanks for these reminders of the bad side of FT. I've been struck by the extremes on Frank Thomas. On the one hand, there were those (in the media many, among die-hards few) who despised Frank. On the other hand, there are many die-hards for whom criticizing Frank Thomas is blasphemy. The truth about this man lies somewhere in-between.