beck72 Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 to land him. Esp. as those two teams will be battling it out with the Braves for the NL East. With the Mets publicly interested in Jose, and the Phils linked as well, and Gillick on record that he wants and could get a #1 type SP before ST, the price would certainly have to go up in terms of talent to land Jose. Those teams would and should overpay to keep the other from getting another top SP. Esp. as this would be the last chance to land a top player before the July trade deadline. The question is, what would the Phils and Mets likely have to give up in order to get KW to deal Jose? And what would the price be? I'll start the ball rolling. The Phils--Ryan Madson and a prospect [Madson would start in the bullpen; and be the 6th SP option--he's been a SP all through his career, and was talked about being the 5th SP this yr for them] The Mets--Aaron Heilman and two prospects [or one top SP prospect like Brian Bannister]--Heilman was lights out in the bullpen the 2nd half-with a 0.68 ERA in over 40 IP. Yet he could also be the 6th SP option, as he's been a SP all his career as well] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierSox Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 The phils could give us Rowand, Haigwood, and Gio back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spataro51 Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 i wouldn't mind getting rowand back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(spataro51 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 10:21 AM) i wouldn't mind getting rowand back. but where would he play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 I don't think either trade happens. I think KW was quoted as saying that he isn't looking to trade Count and that he wouldn't take a position player back for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 10:09 AM) I don't think either trade happens. I think KW was quoted as saying that he isn't looking to trade Count and that he wouldn't take a position player back for him. Yes, you should always believe what KW says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 10:09 AM) I don't think either trade happens. I think KW was quoted as saying that he isn't looking to trade Count and that he wouldn't take a position player back for him. Neither Madson or Heilman are positional players. Both are bullpen arms whom, if needed, could replace an injured starter in the rotation. In 2006, the starting/relief combo of Contreras/McCarthy is better than both McCarthy/Heilman and McCarthy/Madson. I know Williams is intent on maintaing our current rotation, but you have to seriously consider either trade scenerio--if they were offered. You could potentially groom either for a future rotation spot, or simply maintain their presence in the bullpen for 4+ years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 04:20 PM) In 2006, the starting/relief combo of Contreras/McCarthy is better than both McCarthy/Heilman and McCarthy/Madson. I know Williams is intent on maintaing our current rotation, but you have to seriously consider either trade scenerio--if they were offered. You could potentially groom either for a future rotation spot, or simply maintain their presence in the bullpen for 4+ years. That's why getting a proven guy who could throw in both spots [or be better than Bmac that would keep him in the pen--which isn't likely] would be an absolute must in any trade. And if everyone stayed healthy in 2006, that bullpen guy/ 5th starter would strengthen an already strong pen. The combo of Jose/ McCarthy will beat any trade scenario for 2006. The sox would be hard pressed to get another SP as good as BMac. Yet it's not like BMac will take over as the #1 SP though. He could inevitably take over as the #4 SP if an injury occured. The larger question is whether the top 4 [which is the playoff rotation] would be hurt by a Jose trade. Is there a huge difference between Jose, MB, Garcia, Garland and MB, Garcia, Garland, Vazquez? Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 I'm leery of getting a bullpen guyy and thinking he could make 30 starts if need be. People here, and I'm not kidding, were thinking Dustin Hermanson would set-up and then come in and start if need be. I think Heilman's in a different category since he hasn't relieved as much and has started more but I think there is no guarantee that Madson can be stretched out and expected to make starts for a full season. Smoltz did it because he had a whole offseason to prerpare for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 04:37 PM) I'm leery of getting a bullpen guyy and thinking he could make 30 starts if need be. People here, and I'm not kidding, were thinking Dustin Hermanson would set-up and then come in and start if need be. I think Heilman's in a different category since he hasn't relieved as much and has started more but I think there is no guarantee that Madson can be stretched out and expected to make starts for a full season. Smoltz did it because he had a whole offseason to prerpare for it That's the debate--how to play to win now and for the future? If that's the case, Jose wouldn't be moved until the break at the earliest. And even then, it would be for the future for prospects. Few teams would be willing to give up integral parts of their winning season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 IMO the best deal would be Carlos Beltran and some pitching prospect for Count straight up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 05:40 PM) IMO the best deal would be Carlos Beltran and some pitching prospect for Count straight up... No thats a horrible deal......Beltran is one of the most overated players and he costs way tooo much money. If he was cheap id be like hell yeah but 1. he is super expensive and 2. The Mets arent going to trade a current star in the league for 1 year of a could be ace pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pauly8509CWS Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 11:40 AM) IMO the best deal would be Carlos Beltran and some pitching prospect for Count straight up... Ya think? Beltran is one of the best CF in the league but that's a LOT of money we'd be paying him, and then what do you do with Anderson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 11:40 AM) IMO the best deal would be Carlos Beltran and some pitching prospect for Count straight up... '06 - $12M '07 - $12M + $2M signing bonus '08 - $18.5M '09 - $18.5M '10 - $18.5M '11 - $18.5M + FULL NO TRADE CLAUSE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank the Tank 35 Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 I think the BlueJays would make a great trading partner. They look like they're really trying to make a run at the powers in the East and willing to overspend to do so. As much as they've improved over the offseason, the way they're currently aligned, imo they still don't have a chance against the Yanks. A pitcher like Contreras could give them a powerful 1-3 rotation of Halladay, JC, and Burnett. They obviously have no reservations about overspending, so they'd have to think they'd have a good chance to resign him. I think we could easily pluck their #1 prospect, fireballer Dustin McGowan who should be fully recovered from TJ surgery this year, as well as a good reliever like Jason Frasor. Heck maybe they'd throw in a second prospect as well, maybe hardthrowing Brandon League? I think the Jays have to be banking on great years from all of their players to contend. Some teams may be wary about JC repeating his performance, but moreso than probably any other team, the BlueJays would likely take on such a "risk." I mention this in regard to the Phils and Mets because we're talking about a similar package, one involving a RP and a prospect, preferably a SP. I just think if this is the route we go, we could maximize our returns with the Jays. While I'd like Heilman or Madson, I'm a little leery of the fact that they're both over eager to start. Heilman even requested to be traded if they're not going to use him as a starter. If they came here, they'd need to understand their role is in the pen for at least the next two years barring injury. Any route we go though, KW really needs to rip off his trading partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&T Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Something interesting (kinda) that I heard about Contreras yesterday was that Don Cooper, on with North, met some Cubans during the off season who claimed to have proof that JC was actually close to 50 years old and that he is older than El Duque. I didn't see this posted anywhere else and I wouldn't mention it except that it came from Coop. I guess it's really not all that surprising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 The Cuban Satchel Paige? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg The Bull Luzinski Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Count does look like he's about 50, but he sure does not throw like it. Props to the Satchell Page reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 QUOTE(Frank the Tank 35 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 06:21 PM) I mention this in regard to the Phils and Mets because we're talking about a similar package, one involving a RP and a prospect, preferably a SP. I just think if this is the route we go, we could maximize our returns with the Jays. While I'd like Heilman or Madson, I'm a little leery of the fact that they're both over eager to start. Heilman even requested to be traded if they're not going to use him as a starter. If they came here, they'd need to understand their role is in the pen for at least the next two years barring injury. Any route we go though, KW really needs to rip off his trading partner. Any pitcher the sox get would have to know they'd be taking a back seat to almost every pitcher the sox already have. Madson is a guy I'd really like. Heilman less so. Yet if these two teams do compete for Jose, they price would go up from those two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 11:40 AM) IMO the best deal would be Carlos Beltran and some pitching prospect for Count straight up... The Sox OF depth in the majors and minors is so great that KW traded 2 OFers away this offseason, and in all reality still could trade another and get away with it. The Sox are also very near their budget limit they will spend, thus making it nearly impossible to add a ton of salary, which would be the case. They would also be going against their philosophy of spreading money around equally(or if one area's getting more money, it is pitching). KW would also be going against his own word and trading for a positional player for Contreras, when he has said numerous times he will take only pitching for Contreras(and this I do believe from KW's mouth). And even after saying all that...there is no way in hell the Mets would do Beltran straight up for Contreras as is. They signed him to a 7 year deal with a full no-trade clause for a reason last offseason, and I'm guessing that reason wasn't to trade him. The Mets could use another very good starting pitcher, sure...but not at the price of Beltran. And the Sox OF is not nearly bad enough that they make a move that friggin drastic and bold. They can just let Brian Anderson catch the ball and hit 9th for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmbjeff Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 if we traded count to the mets id rather it be with uribe and get jose reyes plus some bullpen help.....ozzie really wanted a #2 hitter with speed and reyes would fit the bill....he rarely walks, but he is still very good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 QUOTE(G&T @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 01:04 PM) Something interesting (kinda) that I heard about Contreras yesterday was that Don Cooper, on with North, met some Cubans during the off season who claimed to have proof that JC was actually close to 50 years old and that he is older than El Duque. I didn't see this posted anywhere else and I wouldn't mention it except that it came from Coop. I guess it's really not all that surprising. If he's that old and throws his fastball that hard, then damn, I wonder what his fastball was like when he was 28. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 QUOTE(dmbjeff @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 06:24 AM) if we traded count to the mets id rather it be with uribe and get jose reyes plus some bullpen help.....ozzie really wanted a #2 hitter with speed and reyes would fit the bill....he rarely walks, but he is still very good Jose Reyes is untouchable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 04:40 AM) IMO the best deal would be Carlos Beltran and some pitching prospect for Count straight up... XBOX Trade!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 And right now if you're discussing which is the better trade scenario, I think if the Mets offered Milledge and Heilman, that would be hard for the Phillies to beat, even if they included Madson in a deal, they'd also have to offer someone like Gavin Floyd IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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